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In dread of our parents

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My friend doesn't like the company of the dad. He says his dad is extreemely strict. He prefers being alone.

We should honour and respect our parents. I know that.

Then something is wrong when the parents appear so mean to their children...and they get secluded from them. This is not the kind of home God wants for HIS people.
 
We are told to honor our parents, but parents are also told not to provoke us to anger.

I would be careful about assuming things about the dad unless you know for fact that the dad is in the wrong. I have some pretty nasty personal experience with people who say awful things to and about their parents which are not true in the least. They hurt their family greatly but act as if they are the victim when all they have ever done is push their family away and say hateful things to them.
 
We are told to honor our parents, but parents are also told not to provoke us to anger.

I would be careful about assuming things about the dad unless you know for fact that the dad is in the wrong. I have some pretty nasty personal experience with people who say awful things to and about their parents which are not true in the least. They hurt their family greatly but act as if they are the victim when all they have ever done is push their family away and say hateful things to them.

Intelligent!

However in my friend's case the dad is extreemly strict. Everyone knows him. That is what I call living in bondage
 
Intelligent!

However in my friend's case the dad is extreemly strict. Everyone knows him. That is what I call living in bondage

Thank you! Yes, there tends to be a big problem when everyone can see it. I have known families as well where everyone could tell there were problems with the dad and he was abusive. It is really sad when there are family problems.
 
My friend doesn't like the company of the dad. He says his dad is extreemely strict. He prefers being alone.

We should honour and respect our parents. I know that.

Then something is wrong when the parents appear so mean to their children...and they get secluded from them. This is not the kind of home God wants for HIS people.

Some kids deserve a bit of biblical discipline:

Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.(Exodus 21:15 NIV)

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. (Leviticus 20:9 NIV)​

It goes the other way around too. If the kid is bad, the parents and the family are to be put to death. Is this really the 'inspired word of God'? If so, maybe it is exactly the kind of home He wants for His people.:halo
 
Then something is wrong when the parents appear so mean to their children...and they get secluded from them. This is not the kind of home God wants for HIS people.
There are abusive parents -- emotionally, physically, even unfortunately, sexually abusive. But most teens and young people go through a period during which they do not get along with their parents. That has been going on for thousands of years. Look at the prodigal son: His actions speak of the typical rebellious youth. Mark Twain once said: "When I was 14, my father was so stupid I could scarcely stand to have the old man around, but by the time I was 21, I was amazed by what he'd learned in just seven years."

Perhaps that is your friend? Even men into their mid-20s have been known to continue to harbor those rebellious feelings toward their dad. Usually, by the time a young man finds a wife, he begins to realize that guy they've been avoiding all these years just might have a lot of value to say to them.
 
There are abusive parents -- emotionally, physically, even unfortunately, sexually abusive. But most teens and young people go through a period during which they do not get along with their parents. That has been going on for thousands of years. Look at the prodigal son: His actions speak of the typical rebellious youth. Mark Twain once said: "When I was 14, my father was so stupid I could scarcely stand to have the old man around, but by the time I was 21, I was amazed by what he'd learned in just seven years."

Perhaps that is your friend? Even men into their mid-20s have been known to continue to harbor those rebellious feelings toward their dad. Usually, by the time a young man finds a wife, he begins to realize that guy they've been avoiding all these years just might have a lot of value to say to them.
Very true
 
Some kids deserve a bit of biblical discipline:

Anyone who attacks his father or his mother must be put to death.(Exodus 21:15 NIV)

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother, and his blood will be on his own head. (Leviticus 20:9 NIV)​

It goes the other way around too. If the kid is bad, the parents and the family are to be put to death. Is this really the 'inspired word of God'? If so, maybe it is exactly the kind of home He wants for His people.:halo

Seriously? Do you really believe this type of Old Testament law is to be enforced to the letter in New Testament times? What is the purpose of forgiveness through Christ? If this is what you teach, I have to assume you also teach a strict following of all other Old Testament law as well, and that you practice what you teach. Do you? Or did you just pick these verses to get a reaction. If so, well played.
 
Seriously? Do you really believe this type of Old Testament law is to be enforced to the letter in New Testament times? What is the purpose of forgiveness through Christ? If this is what you teach, I have to assume you also teach a strict following of all other Old Testament law as well, and that you practice what you teach. Do you? Or did you just pick these verses to get a reaction. If so, well played.

Sorry, it was just a dig at the dozens of reasons in the OT that we are to kill people (I regret the inclusion of the OT in The Bible). I tried to count them all once but gave up when I got to 50! It's a wonder than any Jews are still alive with those horrific instructions to kill each other;).
 
Sorry, it was just a dig at the dozens of reasons in the OT that we are to kill people (I regret the inclusion of the OT in The Bible). I tried to count them all once but gave up when I got to 50! It's a wonder than any Jews are still alive with those horrific instructions to kill each other;).
God's word isn't "horrific." It's true. Perhaps you might study the reasoning behind the commands?
 
Sorry, it was just a dig at the dozens of reasons in the OT that we are to kill people (I regret the inclusion of the OT in The Bible). I tried to count them all once but gave up when I got to 50! It's a wonder than any Jews are still alive with those horrific instructions to kill each other;).

Yeah, when I asked you about this I hadn't noticed your profile says you aren't a Christian. I assumed you were a Christian so assumed this must be what you teach or recommend for other Christians (as some very legalistic "Christians" like to do.) Now I understand what you meant! :) I'm one Christian who is very glad we live under the New Testament
!
 
Yeah, when I asked you about this I hadn't noticed your profile says you aren't a Christian. I assumed you were a Christian so assumed this must be what you teach or recommend for other Christians (as some very legalistic "Christians" like to do.) Now I understand what you meant! :) I'm one Christian who is very glad we live under the New Testament
!
Amen! As well as being one who understands the "why" behind the OT commands.
 
..... being one who understands the "why" behind the OT commands.
Do you? Great! Can you tell me why killing is fair, reasonable, just, proportionate, sensible, good, loving, etc in these circumstances - just for starters. There are many, many more. :sad

Kill People Who Don't Listen to Priests (Deuteronomy 17:12)

Kill Witches (Exodus 22:17)

Kill Homosexuals (Leviticus 20:13)

Kill Fortunetellers (Leviticus 20:27)

Death for Hitting Dad (Exodus 21:15)

Death for Cursing Parents. (Leviticus 20:9)

Death for Adultery (Leviticus 20:10)

Death for Fornication (Leviticus 21:9)

Death to Followers of Other Religions (Exodus 22:19)

Kill Nonbelievers (2 Chronicles 15:12-13)

Kill False Prophets. (Zechariah 13:3)

Kill the Entire Town if One Person Worships Another God (Deuteronomy 13:13-19)

Kill Women Who Are Not Virgins On Their Wedding Night (Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

Kill Anyone who Approaches the Tabernacle (Numbers 1:48-51)

Kill People for Working on the Sabbath (Exodus 31:12-15)​

And while you are at it, exactly where do you think these laws were rescinded? Do try not to make a vague reference to a 'new covenant'.
 
No one should live in fear of another family member .... Prayer and the intervention of the Holy Spirit is the only way to ameliorate change in the constructs of family dynamics.
 
That's a shame. I thought for a minute that someone might actually try to explain these horrors.
There is not room on this board for such an explanation, because it is not a simply matter. However, I will attempt to take on this task, realizing I may run out of room before I present the whole argument.

First, just as a beginning, it should be noted that the Israelites were not always commanded to annihilate all their enemies, only certain ones. The reasons will be suggested below.

Second, if there is plenty of evidence that the Bible is God’s Word, and there is, then for finite man to deny the Bible because he doesn’t like something or does not understand the reasons for some of what it teaches, is nothing short of arrogant rebellion against an infinite God who has revealed Himself. For evidence that the Bible is God’s Word, may I suggest Josh McDowell’s books, Evidence that Demands a Verdict and More Evidence that Demands A Verdict.

With this in mind, may I also suggest that there are many more and greater difficulties in rejecting the Bible and its teaching than there are in accepting Scripture with its so-called difficulties. Why is this so

(1) It seems to me that we face greater difficulties in rejecting the Bible because of the mountain of evidence that the Bible is unique and true as supported by archaeology, fulfilled prophecies, its unity and continuity from Genesis to Revelation, and by the way it has changed lives and even civilization to name just a few evidences. For some outstanding evidence of the impact the Bible and Jesus Christ have made on humanity, may I suggest two books: What If Jesus Had Never Been Born? and What If the Bible Had Never been Written? by James Kennedy and Jerry Newcombe. They both trace the impact Christ and the Bible have made on the world by contrasting or comparing those places that have not been touched by the Scripture and by faith in Christ

(2) Then also, we should consider the fact that the so-called difficulties fall into different categories, each of which needs to be considered. Let me just suggest a couple that come to mind:
(a) Some difficulties are only apparent and exist because of an ignorance of certain facts or a lack of understanding with man pitting his finite mind against God’s (see Isa. 55:8-9).

(b) Then there is what we can call the moral twist problem in man’s heart. Man is too often looking for an excuse to reason away the Bible or reject it so he can proceed independently of God to pursue his own unrighteous agendas. As Christ put it, he doesn’t want to come to the light because his deeds are evil (see John 3:19-21). And by the way, evil deeds according to the Bible do not just include what men often consider immoral issues. They include man’s attempts to be religious, to solve his own personal and social problems, and be good by his own works, and all of this independently of God.
(3) Just because we can’t seem to solve a problem or understand something or because it seems contradictory to us does not means it is unsolvable or not true. The slaughter of Israel’s enemies at the command of God may seem inconsistent with a loving God, but it was really an act of love for Israel and others due to the moral condition of these nations which included child sacrifice as archaeology has clearly shown. The degradation of these people was horrible. Further, God, who knows the hearts of men and what they will and will not do, was acting on the basis of that knowledge. Thus, God ordered their judgment in order to protect Israel and their development as a nation, for it was through them that God would give the Savior of the world, the Lord Jesus Christ. Further, God had waited some 400 years before ordering their destruction until their iniquity became complete.

(4) Also, consider this: Man often wants to know how to harmonize God’s ‘justice, holiness and truth’ with His ‘love, mercy, and compassion,’ We seldom reverse this, however, and want to know how to harmonize His ‘love, mercy and compassion’ with His ‘justice, holiness and truth.’ Instead of wondering why a loving, merciful, and compassionate God destroyed the Canaanites or the Amalekites, why not wonder why a just, holy and true God was patient with them for such a long time considering their totally degraded behavior. Indeed, in view of the absolute holy character of God as presented in the Bible, why does He bear with any of us? Why was He willing to send His Son to die for our sin so that they who believe on Christ might be saved? This is the mystery which finds its answer in God’s love. Furthermore, I find it strange that men and women today who challenge Christianity, using as one of their reasons the slaughter of men, women, and children, are often supportive of abortion which is nothing less that the true slaughter of innocent children by the millions.

(5) The book of Revelation teaches Christ will come to earth and literally destroy millions because of the rebellion and unbelief of man’s heart. In fact, the tribulation period, which is described for us in Revelation 6-19, will among other things, demonstrate the true nature of man and just what lengths he will go to in his sin and rebellion when left to himself. Christ spoke of this time in Matthew 24. So the Old Testament is not alone in demonstrating God’s wrath and judgment against sin.

(6) Another argument that is important to consider is Jesus Christ’s own understanding and attitude toward the Bible. Christ clearly believed in the Old Testament was God’s inspired Word, that it was accurate, historical, good and righteous, and that not even the smallest Hebrew letter or stroke of the letters of the Old Testament would pass away until all was fulfilled. For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount, He said:
Matthew 5 NASB
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.
18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Why is this important? It is important because of the resurrection of Christ. If Christ was raised from the dead, and the evidence that He did is awesome, then this marks Him out as not only unique, but it validates His claims and that of the Bible’s claim about Him. This means that there is incontestable evidence that He is truly the Son of God or God who became flesh and died for our sin. If this is so, then what He believed and said had to be true.

With that, I'll make a final post on the subject ...
 
Finally, below I have included a short section from Norman Geisler’s book, A Popular Survey of the Old Testament, that directly addresses this issue which might help here.
A Moral Problem—the slaughter of the Canaanites (Josh 6, 8, 10).
Israel was commanded by God to completely exterminate the Canaanite inhabitants of the land including men, women, and children. This has been called a primitive and barbaric act of murder perpetrated on innocent lives.

Several factors must be kept in mind in viewing this situation.

(1) There is a difference between murder and justifiable killing. Murder involves intentional and malicious hatred which leads to life-taking. On the other hand, the Bible speaks of permissible life-taking in capital punishment (Gen. 9:), in self defense (Exod. 22:2), and in a justifiable war (Gen. 14).

(2) The Canaanites were by no means innocent. They were a people cursed of God from their very beginning (Gen. 9:25). They were a vile people who practiced the basest forms of immorality. God described their sin vividly in these words, “I punished its iniquity, and the land vomited out its inhabitants” (Lev. 18:25).

(3) Further, the innocent people of the land were not slaughtered. The story of Sodom and Gomorrah clearly demonstrates that God would save a whole city for ten righteous people (Gen. 18:22f.). In that incident, when God could not find ten righteous people, He took the four or five righteous ones out of the place so as not to destroy them with the wicked (Gen. 19:15). On another occasion God saved some thirty-two thousand people who were morally pure (Num. 31:35). Another notable example is Rahab, whom God saved because she believed (cf. Heb. 11:31).

(4) God waited patiently for hundreds of years, giving the wicked inhabitants of Canaan time to repent (cf. 2 Peter 3:9) before He finally decided to destroy them (Gen. 15:16). When their iniquity was “full,” divine judgment fell. God’s judgment was akin to surgery for cancer or amputation of a leg as the only way to save the rest of a sick body. Just as cancer or gangrene contaminates the physical body, those elements in a society—if their evil is left to fester—will completely contaminate the rest of society.

(5) Finally, the battle confronting Israel was not simply a religious war; it was a theocratic war. Israel was directly ruled by God and the extermination was God’s direct command (cf. Exod. 23:27-30; Deut. 7:3-6; Josh. 8:24-26). No other nation either before or after Israel has been a theocracy. Thus, those commands were unique. Israel as a theocracy was an instrument of judgment in the hands of God. (Norman L. Geisler, A Popular Survey of the Old Testament, Baker Book House, Grand Rapids, 1977, pp. 99-100.)

 
..................... Christ clearly believed in the Old Testament was God’s inspired Word, that it was accurate, historical, good and righteous, and that not even the smallest Hebrew letter or stroke of the letters of the Old Testament would pass away until all was fulfilled. For instance, in the Sermon on the Mount, He said:
Matthew 5 NASB
17 "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 "For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
Why is this important? It is important because of the resurrection of Christ. If Christ was raised from the dead, and the evidence that He did is awesome, then this marks Him out as not only unique, but it validates His claims and that of the Bible’s claim about Him. This means that there is incontestable evidence that He is truly the Son of God or God who became flesh and died for our sin. If this is so, then what He believed and said had to be true.......
Thank you for trying to answer the question. It is appreciated. Really.

I am sure you will understand however that you are arguing from a convinced position and not actually providing evidence. You raise some interesting issues which I would like to examine further but you have not addressed any of the oddities like killing your children for cursing or killing unbelievers or 'witches', non-virgin brides, people who work on the Sabbath, followers of other religions etc, etc, which was the question I actually asked. If you have any explanation for those, especially in terms of love, reason and fairness I really would appreciate your insight.

I am pleased that you have raised the matter of Matthew 5:17 & 18 which has always puzzled me. Given the 'infallible nature of The Bible' together with the fact that the earth has clearly not passed away, it follows that not one letter or stroke has passed from the law. Matthew's words clearly mean that as long as the earth exists the whole of the law applies in full. Despite those very clear words, many believe that most of the OT laws no longer apply. Usually they make a vague reference to a new covenant over-riding Matthew's very clear words.

Do you have any explanation of why Matthew 5:17&18 says that the whole of the law will always apply yet most Christians do not believe that statement to be true - despite the infallible nature of The Bible?
 
Passages such as Deuteronomy 21:18-21 which commands the stoning of a disobedient son are difficult to understand, but must be understood in the context of the passage. He has already been chastised (v. 18) which is not merely being scolded by his parents. This man -- and he is a man, loafing, useless, drunken most of the time, sponging off his parents, perhaps even abusing them verbally, emotionally, physically -- has been before the court of 23, the Sanhedrin's judicial court, on more than one occasion. How do I know this? By the tense and style of the original Hebrew. God takes sin seriously, and it is no accident that His first command in the ten following His outline of how He will be worshiped and honored is to honor parents as well. There was leeway in the enforcement of this law, as indicated by the indication in the text that this man is a repeat offender. We don't execute rebellious drunks, of course, because we have treatment for them, and prisons if necessary. The other scenarios you mention can be similarly examined and shown to be more vile a situation than they appear to be in the English translation.

Which leads me to your question about Matth 5:17, 18. When Jesus said "Not one jot or tittle will pass away," it must be taken in its full context. From vv. 3-10, Jesus seems chiefly to refer to the whole body of His true disciples and followers. From 11-16, He addresses the disciples whom he had called to be ministers of the word, and in this verse, to the end of his discourse, He applies himself to the whole multitude in general. Many of those were ready to imagine that by the light of the Gospel, He was giving his disciples instructions to spread in the world. He was going to set aside, as useless, the law of Moses, or the prophets, the interpreters of it, and commentators upon it. Christ knew the thoughts of their hearts, that they had taken up such prejudices in their minds against Him. Therefore He says, "Do not think"; He was sensitive to the objections they were forming, and what a self-improvement they try would make of them against His being the Messiah. He therefore puts that line of thought to rest by saying "I did not come to abolish, but fulfill."

By "the Law" Jesus meant the moral law, as appears through the whole discourse following. This is what He would not destroy, nor would He release men's obligations to be moral in their behavior. He makes this clear throughout the whole Sermon, by setting it forth fully, and giving the true sense and meaning of it; and practically, by yielding perfect obedience to all its commands, whereby He became "the end", the fulfilling end of it. By "the prophets" are meant the writings of the prophets, in which they illustrated and explained the law of Moses. He urged the duties of it, encouraged men through its promises, and directed the people to the Messiah (Himself) and to an expectation of the blessings of grace by His death and resurrection. All with explanations, promises, and prophecies were far from being made void by Christ, but rather that they receive their full accomplishment in Him.

The Jews in the crowd around Him pretended that these words of Christ are contrary to the religion and faith of His followers, who assert that the law of Moses is abolished. That is (as I just did) easily refuted, by observing the exact agreement between Christ and the Apostle Paul in Romans.
Romans 3 NASB
31 Do we then nullify the Law through faith ? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law.

Romans 10
4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.
Whenever Christ or any other of the apostles speaks of the abrogation of the law, it is to be understood of the ceremonial law, which in course ceased by being fulfilled at the Cross.
 
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