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In God we Trust?

Look at this weird symbol that we as christians have to carry around on our money....



The eye and pyramid supposedly have links to Freemasonry. They don't look too kosher to me.
I've heard that the Latin inscription Novus Ordo Seculorum, translates as "New World Order."
Does anybody know for sure what it means?
I know it sure looks 'new age'
 
I love this nation as well. I love the pinciples it stands for such as its freedoms and fundamental ideas. I don't tell people to leave, I agree with Voltaire: "I may not agree with what you say but I'll fight to the death to defend your right to say it."

If the words "Under God" and "In God We Trust" get removed, it will be because it pushes the Christian God ahead of other religions and that is what the founders wanted to avoid. Many of them were Deists and liberal Christians. They wanted for people to be able to practice their religion without interference from the government. However, in this case, the givernment has interfered. For example, Hindus have to pass money around that says they trust in the Christian deity. That was the opposite of what the founders wanted.

Getting rid of it makes the government more secular, which is not atheist. If it were to be atheist, we would have to change them to "under no god" and "In No We Trust." But I would be against them as well since the government would be taking a religious stance.

I see this nation slowly becoming more friendly to atheists, just like it slowly became more comfortable toward other minorities. Here are couple of quotes that demonstrate it:

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered as patriots. This is one nation under God. "
George H. W. Bush

"Americans practice different faiths in churches, synagogues, mosques and temples. And many good people practice no faith at all."
-- George W Bush
 
destiny said:
Does anybody know for sure what it means?
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It means 'New Order for the Ages.' Which is what America was at the time as no republican form of government had never existed in the whole of recorded history up until that point.
 
Gabbylittleangel said:
My view point.

The United States of America is the greatest nation in the world.
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And how do you arrive at that, Gabby? Just because it's YOUR country? You would never convince an Australian of that. Or a New Zealander. Or an Englishman. Or a ...I could go on and on. What constitutes 'the greatest nation in the world' anyway ...the country where I (ME) happen to live ...?

Other than the fact that I can't seem to get a copy of the DVD here in Australia of 'The Swimmer' (Burt Lancaster) and 'The Martian Chronicles' (Rock Hudson) :D the U.S. is no better (or greater) than Australia. And I know since I arrived here in 1980 from Kansas.
 
D46 said:
You'd understand it if you ever crawled waste deep in rice patties or low crawled through the bush in a forsaken place like Phu Loy, Viet Nam. You'd underestand it if you ever saw your childhood friends come back in a body bag with their heads missing or so gone they had to put sand in the coffin to give it weight to make family think someone was in there when they really weren't. I stand to tell you this is the greatest country in the world-not perfect, but far and away better than anywhere in this world. America at it's worse is better than any other place at it's best. We live in a country wherby no one will torture or kill you for possessing a bible. We live in a country where ALL children born are not cast away or murdered because a girl was born instead of a boy. I could go on for hours but understand this-God has given grace and protection to this countery because it is a bible believing, God fearing country for the most part and I pray that He never take his protective hand from us as he has so many other Godless countries. Look around, gentlemen and count your blessings.

Gabby-You said it well, little sister...very well.
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Yeah, what D46 said! :wink:

Thanks D!
 
I wish the Mods would hand out the appropriate warnings to those in gross violation of the TOS... :sad

Quath and Peace,
I think both of you make some excellent points. I think that when our founding fathers wrote the constitution, they were trying to be as fair as possible.

Within Christianity, YHWH has always allowed freedom of choice. Based on this principal, our country was founded. You and others certainly have the YHWH given right to disagree with many things, but another important aspect that we must look at is majority consensus.

God gives us the right to reject His word and His ways. This I believe was written into our constitution as well. If this Nation decides it wants to denounce God, then it is certainly a right that is supported by God. God does not force us to worship Him and you, as an American citizen have the right to reject Him if you choose.

But here is where I have a problem, if the majority of Americans claim to be Christians and support Christian values such as “In God we Trust†or the public display of the Ten Commandments, then why does the minority have the authority to trump the majority?

Now, I don’t think that you or any other American should ‘leave’ America if you don’t like the Christian values held by the majority, but it is certainly within your right which I believe is a God given freedom (ideology) that is commonly overlooked, unlike other communist countries that build walls around their people to keep them in or set quotas on how many children one may birth.

The Teachers asked Jesus if we should pay taxes to Caesar, and since Caesars name and face was on the currency, Jesus said, “Give to Caesar, what is Caesarsâ€Â.

When we Trust God, we show mercy to those around us. In Leviticus 23, we are told that the owner of a field is to leave the corners of his field unharvested. This was to provide for the poor. This is also echo’d in Deuteronomy as well as the addition to only going over your vineyard once. God’s grace often works through the instrument of faith and faith, is always a response to obedience. When we trust in God, we know that the poor will be taken care of and that is not only a blessing to them, but it is a blessing to those around them.

May God continue to bless this great nation so that his Grace, through the faith of His people, will be poured out on those in need.
 
StoveBolts said:
But here is where I have a problem, if the majority of Americans claim to be Christians and support Christian values such as “In God we Trust†or the public display of the Ten Commandments, then why does the minority have the authority to trump the majority?
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This is probably the crux of the issue. The way I see America's government is that it is majority rule with minority rights. So if all the white people decided to vote to enslave the blacks, their majority vote would not be allowed to infringe on the black's rights. They would have to change the constitution to remove those rights before the vote would be allowed.

Looking beyond rights, I think there is another way to look at it. What is the best way to choose a motto? There are two ways I can see people voting for a motto (say out of 20 choices). One is for people to pick their favorite and top vote wins. The other is for people to go motto by motto and select whether they approve or disapprove of the motto.

In the first case, my guess is that "In God We Trust" would win, but maybe it wins by a small majority. However, there would probably be 15% of people opposed to it. By the second measure, phrases like "e pluribus unum" may get almost everyone saying it is acceptable.

So we can have a motto in which a majority likes a lot and a minority dislikes. Or we can have one that everyone agrees is good. I think the second method is better for picking a motto since it includes everyone and has support of most of the people.

Maybe I just confused the issue though...
 
Here’s the beauty of it all though Quath.
Truth always comes out. In your instance of slavery, I recall this being an issue at one time in our nation. Now, I will not allow you to pull this into a Religious / Slave debate as it would distract from the thread, but I feel that it is safe to say that slavery has seen it’s liberation for the most part in our nation. Furthermore, it was liberated on the very biblical principals that our nation was founded. Ironically slavery was justified biblically by a few extremist, but then, just because something can be justified, does not make it truly biblical…

Now, I can tolerate your view and from a biblical standpoint, I feel that I should tolerate your view. However, that does not mean that I have to agree with your view let alone disrespect you for holding on to your views. Respectfully speaking, I understand your argument and the points that you have made. That being said, I hope that you can see how our nation was founded in core biblical beliefs to afford you the liberty to speak what you have spoken without being burned at the stake or put in prison.

Quath said:
So we can have a motto in which a majority likes a lot and a minority dislikes. Or we can have one that everyone agrees is good. I think the second method is better for picking a motto since it includes everyone and has support of most of the people
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The key here is, “I Thinkâ€Â. If the “Majority thoughtâ€Â, then it would be as the majority ruled (right wrong or indifferent). I can respect your thought, but I can still disagree and as a Christian and though disagreeing, I do not see the words, “In God we Trust†as oppressing anyone of any culture. Offensive yes, but oppressive? Not in the least.

Peace.
 
SputnikBoy said:
And how do you arrive at that, Gabby? Just because it's YOUR country? You would never convince an Australian of that. Or a New Zealander. Or an Englishman. Or a ...I could go on and on. What constitutes 'the greatest nation in the world' anyway ...the country where I (ME) happen to live ...?

Other than the fact that I can't seem to get a copy of the DVD here in Australia of 'The Swimmer' (Burt Lancaster) and 'The Martian Chronicles' (Rock Hudson) :D the U.S. is no better (or greater) than Australia. And I know since I arrived here in 1980 from Kansas.
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I'm an American and I agree with you. I do NOT think we are the greatest nation in the world...at all. I am ashamed of what our country has become. I'm ashamed of our leaders. I'm ashamed at how the US places itself on a pedestal. I am ashamed of a LOT. I'm thankful that I have freedom to practice my religion, but that doesn't make America the greatest nation. I just pray for Jesus to return and put an end to all this.
 
But here is where I have a problem, if the majority of Americans claim to be Christians and support Christian values such as “In God we Trust†or the public display of the Ten Commandments, then why does the minority have the authority to trump the majority?
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How I see this.

The majority of americans can also walk. So why have wheelchair ramps?
The majority of americans, live in urbanized areas. So why provide education, or roads or utilitites to non urban areas?

It would be diffrent if we put the minorities view first and said "In allah we trust" or "religions are fake so we trust ourselves" I would totally agree with you and think that is wrong. However, we are merely making something that EVERYONE can use, and EVERYONE can enjoy. If a building has a wheelchair ramp. Does it impede the non disabled?

you may say that beign disabled and being religous cannot be comparable. But do you not hold your faith at such a high regard, that it effects almost every aspect of your life?
 
jgredline said:
Perhaps those that are ashamed of our wonderful country should just leave..
There is no reason why they should be here.

http://www.pro4machineworks.com/Adobe/a ... fetime.pdf
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BTW, telling people to leave their country because they don't think it's the most wonderful place on earth is a bad way to handle things. Would you tell a non-Christian to leave your church? NO WAY. You welcome them with open arms and pray that they give their life to God. Isn't the main purpose of visitation to get people to come to church and give their lives to Christ?

Just because a person is ashamed of what goes on in their country, doesn't mean that they are terrible people or non-Christian. I don't know if your "get out and leave" remark was to me or not, but I want to reassure you that I am a Christian and I'm sure God himself is ashamed of our country right now.
 
reply

I agree with Jg. I am a proud American. I love our Nation. Yes, we are the most powerful Nation on the planet and still will be if we don't lose our will in this fight on Terror.

The Bible does say that we are not to murmor and complain, but to pray for our leaders. If one wants chaos, vote for the party that condones abortion, homosexuality, and is in bed with the ACLU, terrible organization to say the least. If you want your taxes raised, vote for a democrat. If you want to appease, vote for a democrat. The Administration is not the problem, but the radicals all over the world, including some citizens of the USA. Bottom line, if we allow our country to be taken over by the left, we are headed for disaster. So if you don't like it here, just leave.


May God bless, golfjack
 
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golfjack said:
I agree with Jg. I am a proud American. I love our Nation. Yes, we are the most powerful Nation on the planet and still will be if we don't lose our will in this fight on Terror.

The Bible does say that we are not to murmor and complain, but to pray for our leaders. If one wants chaos, vote for the party that condones abortion, homosexuality, and is in bed with the ACLU, terrible organization to say the least. If you want your taxes raised, vote for a democrat. If you want to appease, vote for a democrat. The Administration is not the problem, but the radicals all over the world, including some citizens of the USA. Bottom line, if we allow our country to be taken over by the left, we are headed for disaster. So if you don't like it here, just leave.


May God bless, golfjack
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I don't believe this has anything to do with the "Fight on Terror". I believe our world is falling apart because so many people are taking God out of the country.
 
StoveBolts said:
Now, I will not allow you to pull this into a Religious / Slave debate as it would distract from the thread, but I feel that it is safe to say that slavery has seen it’s liberation for the most part in our nation. Furthermore, it was liberated on the very biblical principals that our nation was founded. Ironically slavery was justified biblically by a few extremist, but then, just because something can be justified, does not make it truly biblical…
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I won't try to make this a Biblical slavery issue, but it does seem pretty clear to me that slavery is acceptable in the Bible. It is even part of the 10 commandments.

That being said, I hope that you can see how our nation was founded in core biblical beliefs to afford you the liberty to speak what you have spoken without being burned at the stake or put in prison.
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I do not se the Bible supporting equality. I see the Bible supporting concepts of slaves and masters. I see it supporting concepts of kings and servants. When it comes to earthly power, I do not see the Bible saying we should all be equal.

I agree things could be a lot worse for me and historically they have been. But I guess as long as I can see ways for America to be better, then that is what I aim for.

I do not see the words, “In God we Trust†as oppressing anyone of any culture. Offensive yes, but oppressive? Not in the least.
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What if it were reversed. Say for some reason, atheists managed to get enough seats in congress (not likely today but maybe in 100 years?). If the changed it to "under no God" would you think that was acceptable?
 
jgredline said:
Perhaps those that are ashamed of our wonderful country should just leave..
There is no reason why they should be here.

http://www.pro4machineworks.com/Adobe/a ... fetime.pdf
Click to expand...

But why, jg, is the country I happen to live in not JUST as 'wonderful' as the country YOU happen to live in? What is it that makes a country (a mere land mass) 'wonderful' anyway? I can never get my head around this blind 'flag-waving' kind of patriotism or 'jingoism'. This is actually one of the reasons that America and Americans are 'unpopular' with many other nationals of other countries. They see this attitude of America calling itself 'the greatest nation on earth' as not only the height of arrogance but also a derogatory statement implied to every other country in the world. No one wishes to be made to feel a lesser human being than another but America does a GREAT job at making other nationals (REAL people!) feel this way about themselves.

Furthermore, is it not the right of the individual to feel ashamed about something if they ACTUALLY feel ashamed about something? Why should they be expected to leave the country for exercising what should be a God-given right? "If you don't believe as I do, then leave!" ...? I would much rather listen to someone who might have a genuine beef to share with others than be blindly impressed by someone waving a piece of cloth with a 'whatever' symbol superimposed on it.
 
reply

Actually, Australia has been a big supporter of America in the war on terror. John Howard is a conservitive Matee.



May God bless, golfjack
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
Actually, Australia has been a big supporter of America in the war on terror. John Howard is a conservitive Matee.
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And John Howard STILL supports Australia's role along with the U.S. on 'the war on terror' unlike a growing number of other politicians and general populace. I'm rather surprised you've heard of John Howard, golfjack, since Australia still seems to have the rather 'backward' image hanging over it of crocodile hunters and kangaroos hopping around in the city streets. The truth is that Australia is basically a 'U.S.A.' where the nationals speak with a British 'Cockney-like' accent ...sorry Aussies, I know that might offend ...!
 
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