Congratulations on finding out how GIF's work.
Still not a clear response... but in keeping with a fun and childlike attitude.
Nice to see you growing as a human being.
Christian Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
-
Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
-
-
Depending upon the Holy Spirit for all you do?
Read through the following study by Tenchi for more on this topic
https://christianforums.net/threads/without-the-holy-spirit-we-can-do-nothing.109419/
-
-
How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
-
In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave
- Thread starter Alfred Persson
- Start date
Still not a clear response... but in keeping with a fun and childlike attitude.
Nice to see you growing as a human being.
Highway54
Member
They died in their relationship with God, but like you said they did not die yet.
Adam lived to 930 yrs Gen 5:5 within the thousand yr day for God 2 Pet 3:8. If we are wrong about that, satan was correct as they did not die within 24 hours as he said they wouldn't. So how do you account for their deaths being many years later, was God wrong? I don't think so sir.
If "death" can only be physical death, explain what Christ meant when promised the LIVING who "believe" they pass from "DEATH INTO LIFE". How can they "pass from death into life" before they died?
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (Jn. 5:24 NKJ)
All hear His voice. The dead in Christ do live and will rise to life. The dead in sins will also rise to be condemned.
No change of mind.
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
It will be His words that prevail in regard to judgment's made.
Jesus=>I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.
Now in regard to what is well known and taught about the resurrection and gathering of those alive on earth.
It is on the last day from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. "Of us ALL"
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
We read of those who remained faithful to Jesus in the accounting of the 1st resurrection. Therefore those who are not raised on that day must be those who suffer.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Did the head of the body of Christ, Christ Jesus, teach that anyone can reject Him and live? Therefore if any church teaches otherwise choose whom you will follow for you cannot serve two masters.
No change of mind.
“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
It will be His words that prevail in regard to judgment's made.
Jesus=>I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.
Now in regard to what is well known and taught about the resurrection and gathering of those alive on earth.
It is on the last day from the ends of the heavens to the ends of the earth. "Of us ALL"
At that time people will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. 27And he will send his angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of the heavens.
We read of those who remained faithful to Jesus in the accounting of the 1st resurrection. Therefore those who are not raised on that day must be those who suffer.
Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.
Did the head of the body of Christ, Christ Jesus, teach that anyone can reject Him and live? Therefore if any church teaches otherwise choose whom you will follow for you cannot serve two masters.
No one can reject Jesus (knowing He is God the Son) and live: "He who is not with Me is against Me".
If ignorant of His deity, then "anyone who speaks against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him":
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32 NKJ)
At first this seem contradictory, Christ said if you aren't with Him, you are against Him. So how could those speak against Him not be "against" Him? The clue is in verse 32. The Holy Spirit is doing obvious works of God, if anyone blasphemes Him there is no forgiveness.
Being against God KNOWINGLY is the unforgivable sin, that is why being against Christ KNOWING He is God in the Flesh, is unforgivable also.
But Christ says those who didn't know they were against God WILL be forgiven "in the age to come", given a second chance in "the age to come."
Last edited:
Many reject Jesus. They don't believe in Him. Thats clear from the NT and even today. All the dead will hear His voice but only those who have done good are raised to life. There is alot more sin then just speaking against Jesus. They hated Him because He testified to their works as being evil.
Thats true. But I'm a Christian, Christ is my Teacher. Therefore, when He says He will forgive those who speak against the Son of Man, I believe Him:
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)
What type of person speaks against Christ? Why are you assuming that is their only sin? We are saved by grace through faith in Him. If you're a Christain you should know that.
Jesus prayed for those who believed in Him and those who would come to believe in Him through their message. John 17
Acts 26:18
New International Version
Change of heart or a new heart and faith in Christ
18 to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me.’John 1:12
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
Not discussing all the possible sins people may do. That's not the point. Of course there are Eternal sins there is no second chance for. I'm not talking about those.
Why aren't you listening to Christ? He said He would forgive "every sin and blasphemy", the only implied limitation in the context is that ignorance of God must be a factor.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:31-32 NKJ)
Those who knowingly choose to rebel against God don't get a second chance.
You are correct to insist Christ saves all who believe in Him, but THAT is the point. Many are too ignorant or deceived to believe during this life, so God gives them a chance to believe in "the age to come". He will forgive "every sin and blasphemy" done in ignorance, if they repent and believe in Him.
Seems simple to me. Why don't you believe Christ?
Last edited:
Sanctification is by faith in Christ.
We must pay the most careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2For since the message spoken through angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3how shall we escape if we ignore so great a salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.
Everyone who sins is a slave to sin unless the Son sets you fee. Those that reject Christ will perish in their sins.
Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence, and you are doing what you have heard from your father. ”
That verse you keep trumping doesn't state otherwise.
Highway54
Member
I think we need to look at things logically Alfred. You have given much evidence for a while now of why you believe that we only die physically, correct me if I am in error. I state when you die you die fully and nothing survives, you are just the way you were before you were born, no consciousness at all. In this case one of us is correct. God said in the Bible that if Adam sinned he would die, which Eve reiterated to satan. We have agreed they died in that day spiritually, but of course they continued to live on, and eventually died as we know death as. I believe we agree on that as well, but am thinking you believe their soul lived on somewhere, again correct me if I misunderstood you sir. In fact before I go on reasoning on this I want to make sure if I am understanding you correctly, am I?
That is correct. Jesus taught the soul cannot be killed by man, but according to the Society it can:
"And do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. But rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28 NKJ)
Jesus distinguished the body from the soul, the body can be killed by man, but not the soul.
Only God can kill both. It follows the soul continues to exist until God kills it.
Is belief or non-belief in Christ the only grounds for salvation or condemnation? (Matthew 21:42; Mark 12:10; John 3:16-18; 5:24; 14:6; 20:31; Acts 4:11-12;1 Peter 2:6-8).
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)
If you answer yes, how will those born before Christ came in the first century be judged? And how will those born after, who never heard of Christ, be judged?
Jesus is how God chose to forgive sin. There is no other name as you have shown. Those that reject Him remain in the guilt of their sins which will condemn them. As in the wages of sin is death. We are sanctified by faith in Him and in Him is no sin. You will note all the blessings given by Jesus to the 7 named churches in REV were to those who overcame and were victorious.
Unbelief is noted by God in regard to Judgment.
And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” 6 And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. 7 The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son. 8 But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the detestable, as for murderers, the sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their portion will be in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”
If someone has never heard of Jesus, and I have never met such a person, then I would state they are neither condemned nor saved but they will come before the one who judges, and Jesus will make a judgment concerning them and I would add nothing is hidden from Him.
You contradict yourself. You agreed there is "no other name under heaven....by which we must be saved":
"Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." (Acts 4:12 NKJ)
Then they can't be saved by Judgment of a different name. They can't be judged "in the name of their own righteousness. Or, in the Name of "nothing is hidden from Him"
You must believe one or the other, you can't have both.
OR you can believe as me, that the Dead are informed of the Name of Jesus if they never heard in this life, and billions haven't (Everyone before Jesus came and millions after He did ), and they have opportunity to believe and live according to God in the spirit:
For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:6 NKJ)
Who can't be judged by Jesus? The one who judges by Gods appointment. 1 Pet 4:6 were those killed in the flood of Noah before the light of the gospel and apart from any law. Jesus preached to the spirits in prison. However, with light comes accountability. Furthermore, Jesus stated "And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day. But I tell you that it will be more bearable for Sodom on the day of judgment than for you.”//Jesus saw that with His eyes and that was found in Sodoms favor. They too were before the light of the gospel and apart from any law. A better judgment would be life not death.
This is the correct context in Jesus's answer which you use to support your unorthodox conclusions of those who reject Jesus and die can receive redemption.
And the teachers of the law who came down from Jerusalem said, “He is possessed by Beelzebul! By the prince of demons he is driving out demons.”
23So Jesus called them over to him and began to speak to them in parables: “How can Satan drive out Satan? 24If a kingdom is divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand. 25If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand. 26And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand; his end has come. 27In fact, no one can enter a strong man’s house without first tying him up. Then he can plunder the strong man’s house. 28Truly I tell you, people can be forgiven all their sins and every slander they utter, 29but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
With light comes accountability to all.
“Here is my servant whom I have chosen,
the one I love, in whom I delight;
I will put my Spirit on him,
and he will proclaim justice to the nations.
Logically, if Jesus is the only way to salvation, then everyone who died before Jesus came, are lost. When you make exceptions to the rule you contradict He is the only way.
As for the dead in 1 Peter 4:1-6, they aren't the "spirits in prison" in the previous chapter. These "dead" were those who mocked Christians for not continuing to walk in lewdness etc.:
3 For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles-- when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries.
4 In regard to these, they think it strange that you do not run with them in the same flood of dissipation, speaking evil of you.
5 They will give an account to Him who is ready to judge the living and the dead.
6 For this reason the gospel was preached also to those who are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. (1 Pet. 4:3-6 NKJ)
Peter says they will pay in hell for their mocking, to the God who judges the living and the dead. BUT they are not eternally lost. They can reconsider their mocking the Gospel (the unstated premise is they didn't really know God "the judge of the living and dead, or they wouldn't have mocked). Because they did it in ignorance, they get a second chance to repent. But that don't get them out of hell, they remain there "living according to God in the spirit" until their resurrection.
I agree knowledge makes one accountable:
47 "And that servant who knew his master's will, and did not prepare himself or do according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 "But he who did not know, yet committed things deserving of stripes, shall be beaten with few. For everyone to whom much is given, from him much will be required; and to whom much has been committed, of him they will ask the more. (Lk. 12:47-48 NKJ)
No willful enemy of God, or willfully wicked person gets a second chance. Only those ignorant of the Deity in Christ will be forgiven their not listening to Him, all others have committed the eternal sin:
30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. (Matt. 12:30-32 NKJ)
Every sin and blasphemy against the Son of Man by those who didn't know He is the Son of God, God the Son, will be forgiven because they were ignorant not knowing they were fighting God.
But all who fight God, for example, by blaspheming the Holy Spirit who does obvious unmistakable works of God, there is no forgiveness.
Yes Jesus is the only way. Even for those who died before the light of the gospel was sent down through Him.
If you can show where Jesus or His Apostles taught one may reject Him for any reason and live do so and I will take a look at it.
Highway54
Member
Soul is life sir, man can in fact kill us now, but have no say in our future life. That was the meaning of Jesus' statement.
No, that is not true. Jesus' statement does not contain the idea God remembers the extinguished, destroyed, annhiliated person, and that memory is alive.
Jesus distinguished body from soul---one can be killed by man, the other cannot.
Therefore, man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul...it continues alive.
Not "potentially alive in God's memory", but alive unchanged. It did not die when the body died.
I liked the WatchTower, until I studied Scripture alone without their publications. They do not teach the same things, and the Society knows that:
"Furthermore, not only do we find that people cannot see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURE STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for 10 years---if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for 10 years, our experience shows that within two years he goes Into Darkness on the other hand, if he had merely read the SCRIPTURE STUDIES with their references, and had not read a page of the bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the scriptures."-Charles T. Russell, The Watchtower, September 15th 1910.
Charles Taze Russell – “Don’t read your Bible”
What would you say if I asked you to quit reading your Bible? Or, how would you respond if I told you that you were permitted to read your Bible, but, it had to be in conjunction with my “Scripture…
appliedapologetics.wordpress.com
Sir, that is against every principle of sound interpretation. It has a name: "Eisegesis".
If you cannot see "xyz" in the Scriptures, without adding other literature, that is PROOF "xyz" is NOT in the Scriptures.
Last edited: