In John 5:25-29 Jesus confirmed the dead will have a chance to obey His voice while still in the grave

[Alfred Persson]

You have not explained it to me, ever.
So try again please.

From post #145

Again, you aren't hearing anything I said, so why should I continue to explain it?

I'll try one last time.

The Pharisees accused Christ of blasphemy, He healed a cripple on the Sabbath. They were rejecting His Messianic authority over the Sabbath. Christ doubled down and said God is "my Father" and THAT really pissed them off:

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:16-23 NKJ)

Christ is claiming to be equal with God. Just as God kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice, so also the Son kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice. This applies, not only to the living, but all the dead in the graves:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you,
he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

This isn't about judging righteous and unrighteous, Its about Christ's authority to kill and make alive anyone He wants to.

Christ didn't deny He made Himself equal to God, He supported the claim by saying His voice has the same power as God's over the dead, to kill and make alive.

Christ has the keys to death and Hades and He lets out anyone He wants to, has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, Just like God His Father, equal to God.

All the dead who obey His voice while in the grave "did good" and will rise to a resurrection of life.

 

[dwb001]

From post #145

Again, you aren't hearing anything I said, so why should I continue to explain it?

I'll try one last time.

The Pharisees accused Christ of blasphemy, He healed a cripple on the Sabbath. They were rejecting His Messianic authority over the Sabbath. Christ doubled down and said God is "my Father" and THAT really pissed them off:

16 For this reason the Jews persecuted Jesus, and sought to kill Him, because He had done these things on the Sabbath.
17 But Jesus answered them, "My Father has been working until now, and I have been working."
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.

19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 "For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 "For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 "For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Jn. 5:16-23 NKJ)

Christ is claiming to be equal with God. Just as God kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice, so also the Son kills and makes alive based upon their obedience to His voice. This applies, not only to the living, but all the dead in the graves:

24 "Most assuredly, I say to you,
he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.
25 "Most assuredly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God; and those who hear will live.
26 "For as the Father has life in Himself, so He has granted the Son to have life in Himself,
27 "and has given Him authority to execute judgment also, because He is the Son of Man.
28 "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice
29 "and come forth-- those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. (Jn. 5:24-29 NKJ)

This isn't about judging righteous and unrighteous, Its about Christ's authority to kill and make alive anyone He wants to.

Christ didn't deny He made Himself equal to God, He supported the claim by saying His voice has the same power as God's over the dead, to kill and make alive.

Christ has the keys to death and Hades and He lets out anyone He wants to, has mercy upon whom He will have mercy, Just like God His Father, equal to God.

All the dead who obey His voice while in the grave "did good" and will rise to a resurrection of life.

Wow... thanks for finally getting around to answering a question.
Now to correct you on your theology.

When you say that the passage isn't about judging... when the passage uses the words "execute judgement" that doesn't look like you are reading the text correctly.

Your bit in red does not show where the part about killing comes in... you are adding to the text things that are not there.

Where in the text is the phrase "to kill and make alive", or similar? So you are adding your ideas to the text.

Where is the "did good in the grave" phrase come from... you are putting the "doing good" after death instead of before death as would be the normal understanding of that verse.

So many of your own ideas are being forced into this text and now I understand your refusal to revisit your theory.
I would be embarrassed if at my old age I held beliefs as this as this idea.

And again... nothing in these verses says that after death you can change your mind.
So why are you trying to make Hell an attractive alternative?
Why do you wish for Hell to be a valid alternate pathway to Heaven?

 

[Alfred Persson]

Wow... thanks for finally getting around to answering a question.
Now to correct you on your theology.

When you say that the passage isn't about judging... when the passage uses the words "execute judgement" that doesn't look like you are reading the text correctly.

Your bit in red does not show where the part about killing comes in... you are adding to the text things that are not there.

Where in the text is the phrase "to kill and make alive", or similar? So you are adding your ideas to the text.

Where is the "did good in the grave" phrase come from... you are putting the "doing good" after death instead of before death as would be the normal understanding of that verse.

So many of your own ideas are being forced into this text and now I understand your refusal to revisit your theory.
I would be embarrassed if at my old age I held beliefs as this as this idea.

And again... nothing in these verses says that after death you can change your mind.
So why are you trying to make Hell an attractive alternative?
Why do you wish for Hell to be a valid alternate pathway to Heaven?

Until you can EXPLAIN what Christ said to prove He is equal with God, there is no point to this.

Its upon Christ's proof I base my argument.

But you cannot hear Christ's proof, therefore you cannot hear me.

 

[dwb001]

Until you can EXPLAIN what Christ said to prove He is equal with God, there is no point to this.

Its upon Christ's proof I base my argument.

But you cannot hear Christ's proof, therefore you cannot hear me.

Are you back banging that old gong?
So you refuse to even look at my arguments against your claims?
Why should I explain something that you just explained... poorly.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Are you back banging that old gong?
So you refuse to even look at my arguments against your claims?
Why should I explain something that you just explained... poorly.

You don't know what I claimed, you can't hear Christ and my claims are based on His words.

Until you can EXPLAIN what Christ said to prove He is equal with God, there is no point to this.

Its upon Christ's proof I base my argument.

But you cannot hear Christ's proof, therefore you cannot hear me.

 

[dwb001]

You don't know what I claimed, you can't hear Christ and my claims are based on His words.

Until you can EXPLAIN what Christ said to prove He is equal with God, there is no point to this.

Its upon Christ's proof I base my argument.

But you cannot hear Christ's proof, therefore you cannot hear me.

If I don't know what you claimed... maybe claim it again with different words.
Do you not see that repeating the same silly phrases over and over is just showing how little you think of the people on this site?
You are not making an honest effort here.
By copy/paste your responses you are showing a disrespect for dialogue and frankly your ignorance is showing.
I would like to have a real discussion with you. So why not just treat each other as human beings?
How about you try to not repeat yourself when trying to explain yourself?
Just take a breath and start over in small pieces so we all can follow along.
Or if you want to show true disdain for everyone here... please just repeat your demand that I explain your position.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If I don't know what you claimed... maybe claim it again with different words.
Do you not see that repeating the same silly phrases over and over is just showing how little you think of the people on this site?
You are not making an honest effort here.
By copy/paste your responses you are showing a disrespect for dialogue and frankly your ignorance is showing.
I would like to have a real discussion with you. So why not just treat each other as human beings?
How about you try to not repeat yourself when trying to explain yourself?
Just take a breath and start over in small pieces so we all can follow along.
Or if you want to show true disdain for everyone here... please just repeat your demand that I explain your position.

Why can't you explain what Christ said?

Because 1)You don't believe it; 2) You can't hear it; 3)You can't understand it.

All three reasons are why I'm done explaining. You won't hear me. Choose any of the three reasons why, end result is the same:

Until you can EXPLAIN what Christ said to prove He is equal with God, there is no point to this.

Its upon Christ's proof I base my argument.

But you cannot hear Christ's proof, therefore you cannot hear me.

 

[dwb001]

Why can't you explain what Christ said?

Because 1)You don't believe it; 2) You can't hear it; 3)You can't understand it.

I believe what Jesus said... so not #1.
Maybe number 2 is valid because I don't listen to the Bible on tape like so many others do.
And #3... I do understand it... just not the way you appear to "understand" it.

All three reasons are why I'm done explaining. You won't hear me. Choose any of the three reasons why, end result is the same:

Until you can EXPLAIN what Christ said to prove He is equal with God, there is no point to this.

Its upon Christ's proof I base my argument.

But you cannot hear Christ's proof, therefore you cannot hear me.

And still you show your disrespect for everyone reading this by repeating the mantra of "i know something you don't know".
Please keep it klassy. (sp. intentional)
So you can't put your ideas into different words... you only can copy/paste your previous posts?
If a person really does believe an idea they should be able to express that idea in many different ways.
Using the exact same phrases over and over show a lack of understanding rather than a full understanding.
So where else in the NT or OT is this same idea shown?
Or is it only shown to the "knowledgeable" people in one vague reference passage?

 

[Alfred Persson]

I believe what Jesus said... so not #1.
Maybe number 2 is valid because I don't listen to the Bible on tape like so many others do.
And #3... I do understand it... just not the way you appear to "understand" it.

And still you show your disrespect for everyone reading this by repeating the mantra of "i know something you don't know".
Please keep it klassy. (sp. intentional)
So you can't put your ideas into different words... you only can copy/paste your previous posts?
If a person really does believe an idea they should be able to express that idea in many different ways.
Using the exact same phrases over and over show a lack of understanding rather than a full understanding.
So where else in the NT or OT is this same idea shown?
Or is it only shown to the "knowledgeable" people in one vague reference passage?

No one is reading our discussion, all realized long ago you refuse to discuss Christ's words because they prove my argument is correct.

Jesus wasn't talking about judgment of people's past behavior, He was proving not only is He Lord of the Sabbath, but He is equal to God, as proven by the Father giving His voice the same authority as the Father has.

It kills or makes alive anyone He wants to. He promises all who obey it in the future, will live.

So all honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

When you truly want to discuss this, you will begin by explaining Christ's words, what He said.

To prove you are ready for real dialogue and not the games you are playing now.

Until then I will ignore your posts. Any man who spends his retirement on such brainless folly as demonstrated here doesn't merit a response.

 

[dwb001]

No one is reading our discussion, all realized long ago you refuse to discuss Christ's words because they prove my argument is correct.

Well thank you for finally responding with some real content.

Jesus wasn't talking about judgment of people's past behavior, He was proving not only is He Lord of the Sabbath, but He is equal to God, as proven by the Father giving His voice the same authority as the Father has.

You have not proven that point yet. You barely alluded to it in your scant previous posts.
I disagree with your assessment as I know how to read and that is not how the text flows.

It kills or makes alive anyone He wants to. He promises all who obey it in the future, will live.

Where is the kills? The verses you quote never use the word kill. Right... He is talking about life and you read it as death.

So all honor the Son even as they honor the Father.

Yep... has nothing to do with the dead getting a second chance.

When you truly want to discuss this, you will begin by explaining Christ's words, what He said.

You don't understand how discussion or debate works. You are the one making a claim. You must defend your position... I don't have to show myself worthy of your time.

To prove you are ready for real dialogue and not the games you are playing now.

What games... you have not provided any points for discussion... only that I don't hear from Jesus. Well prove me wrong.

Until then I will ignore your posts. Any man who spends his retirement on such brainless folly as demonstrated here doesn't merit a response.

Please continue to ignore my posts as I debunk your posts every time I get to help others on this site not fall into error.
What folly... you have given no points that can be debated. Your argument sounds like a child's.
Just put forward a single point and allow for discussion.
Instead all I have received from you is abusive attitude.
Maybe check the attitude and come back with a point that is worthy of discussion.

 

[Highway54]

For our sins.

Exactly! So the wages that sin pays is death, correct? If we truly didn't die when our bodies died as satan said, there would be no need for that ransom. The dead are truly dead sir, and they will remain dead, until God resurrects them.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Exactly! So the wages that sin pays is death, correct? If we truly didn't die when our bodies died as satan said, there would be no need for that ransom. The dead are truly dead sir, and they will remain dead, until God resurrects them.

But Adam and Eve did die immediately when they ate, because then their "eyes were opened"(Gen. 3:7) (to the dark side, and their fallen nature became wicked and the thoughts of their hearts evil (Gen. 6:5). Its impossible to be evil and remain in the Holy Presence of God, so death is separation from God, Adam and Eve were now dead in their sins.

Satan lied, they did die when they ate just as Eve said (Gen. 3:3). Satan is the one who said it would happen "in a day", Eve quoted God correctly, that it would happen immediately:

2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said,`You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:2-5 NKJ)

When the Society points to their physical death centuries later, claiming that it happened within a 1,000 year "day", it is agreeing with Satan's twisting of what God said.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Well thank you for finally responding with some real content.

You have not proven that point yet. You barely alluded to it in your scant previous posts.
I disagree with your assessment as I know how to read and that is not how the text flows.

Where is the kills? The verses you quote never use the word kill. Right... He is talking about life and you read it as death.

Yep... has nothing to do with the dead getting a second chance.

You don't understand how discussion or debate works. You are the one making a claim. You must defend your position... I don't have to show myself worthy of your time.

What games... you have not provided any points for discussion... only that I don't hear from Jesus. Well prove me wrong.

Please continue to ignore my posts as I debunk your posts every time I get to help others on this site not fall into error.
What folly... you have given no points that can be debated. Your argument sounds like a child's.
Just put forward a single point and allow for discussion.
Instead all I have received from you is abusive attitude.
Maybe check the attitude and come back with a point that is worthy of discussion.

Its delusional your evasion of Christ's words debunks the conclusion I drew from them.

 

[dwb001]

Its delusional your evasion of Christ's words debunks the conclusion I drew from them.

Your sentence structure makes no sense.
Please try better to clearly communicate your ideas.

 

[dwb001]

But Adam and Eve did die immediately when they ate, because then their "eyes were opened"(Gen. 3:7) (to the dark side, and their fallen nature became wicked and the thoughts of their hearts evil (Gen. 6:5). Its impossible to be evil and remain in the Holy Presence of God, so death is separation from God, Adam and Eve were now dead in their sins.

If they died immediately how was Cain/Able/Seth/all the rest born? Can the dead bring forth life?
I see that you are conflating the spiritual and physical.
You place more strength on the spiritual side then the physical. That is your choice but maybe be honest with your audience and state you bias a such.

Satan lied, they did die when they ate just as Eve said (Gen. 3:3). Satan is the one who said it would happen "in a day", Eve quoted God correctly, that it would happen immediately:

Exactly where is the lie?
Satan was speaking of the physical and God was speaking of the spiritual.
Satan had a short term view and God the long view.
Eve did not quote God correctly because God never said not to touch the tree or fruit... just not to "eat of it".

2 And the woman said to the serpent, "We may eat the fruit of the trees of the garden;
3 "but of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said,`You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.'"
4 Then the serpent said to the woman, "You will not surely die.
5 "For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil." (Gen. 3:2-5 NKJ)

When the Society points to their physical death centuries later, claiming that it happened within a 1,000 year "day", it is agreeing with Satan's twisting of what God said.

Who is this "Society" of which you speak? And who claims that the 1000 year "day" applies to the death of Adam and Eve? Sounds like something off a conspiracy website.

I see your handling of the Word still needs some work... but we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If they died immediately how was Cain/Able/Seth/all the rest born? Can the dead bring forth life?
I see that you are conflating the spiritual and physical.
You place more strength on the spiritual side then the physical. That is your choice but maybe be honest with your audience and state you bias a such.

Exactly where is the lie?
Satan was speaking of the physical and God was speaking of the spiritual.
Satan had a short term view and God the long view.
Eve did not quote God correctly because God never said not to touch the tree or fruit... just not to "eat of it".


Who is this "Society" of which you speak? And who claims that the 1000 year "day" applies to the death of Adam and Eve? Sounds like something off a conspiracy website.

I see your handling of the Word still needs some work... but we all have our strengths and weaknesses.

I spoke of "Death" as separation from God, not physical death as Highway54, a Jehovah's Witness believes.

At least read our discussion first because opening mouth only to insert foot is embarrassing.

But I know you won't do that.

 

[dwb001]

I spoke of "Death" as separation from God, not physical death as Highway55, a Jehovah's Witness believes.

At least read our discussion so you don't embarrass yourself.

But I know you won't do that.

Maybe be more clear in your answers. And all my points still stand.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Maybe be more clear in your answers. And all my points still stand.

Highway54 knows what I said, its clear to him.

What points? You don't even know what the discussion is about.

Your "What Society" question proves that

 

[dwb001]

Highway54 knows what I said, its clear to him.

What points? You don't even know what the discussion is about.

Your "What Society" question proves that

It just proves a lack of clarity in your post.
Remember that these are open forums that anyone can respond to and as such it is good practice to make all posts easy to understand by all who might read them.
All the points I made about your post. All of them are valid and stand.

 

[Alfred Persson]

It just proves a lack of clarity in your post.
Remember that these are open forums that anyone can respond to and as such it is good practice to make all posts easy to understand by all who might read them.
All the points I made about your post. All of them are valid and stand.