Calling before they did anthing.
Problem ,if Esau was Good he would still.serve the younger ,the bible says it was wit out either choosing good or bad .
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In My Opinion
- Thread starter Rollo Tamasi
- Start date
Problem ,if Esau was Good he would still.serve the younger ,the bible says it was wit out either choosing good or bad .
Cygnus
Member
It says if you believe you won't perish...you have eternal life....
If you have received eternal life, you can't lose it. Thats what eternal means. Forever.
You asked about a deep theological thread in a light discussion .seriously then blast me for not being to small talk.
Douglas Summers
Member
As I studied your post, I wondered if a man could be saved by Biblical opinions? When I was called by the lord, I knew nothing about the Bible other than Jesus was Lord. I don't remember the sermon or any particular thing that he said that drew me, just that the Lord was calling, and after I was baptized, there was a change in my life. I was in a Church called the "First Church of Christ". I knew nothing of their doctrines, even to this day. But I do not know if a man can be saved by opinions. I think a man can be saved by the word of God, whether or not the preacher is genuine, because the word of God is that powerful in itself alone. It was after I heard the opinion that a man can lose his salvation that I found Volumes of opinions about eternal security and a gaggle of other doctrinal opinions. But after saying that, if a man is called, opinions can be of benefit to cause a man to study the Scriptures to see if it is so. But I believe to your point, there are Churches founded on second opinions authors.
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They did believe in it:
"Arminianism also accepts a doctrine of total depravity, although not identical to the Calvinist position. Total depravity was affirmed by the Five articles of Remonstrance, by Jacobus Arminius himself, and by John Wesley, who strongly identified with Arminius through publication of his periodical ."
Interesting that here "total depravity was affirmed by the Five Articles of Remonstrance," the very article you quoted to show that they didn't believe in total depravity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
And two of those Five Articles:
"Arminianism also accepts a doctrine of total depravity, although not identical to the Calvinist position. Total depravity was affirmed by the Five articles of Remonstrance, by Jacobus Arminius himself, and by John Wesley, who strongly identified with Arminius through publication of his periodical ."
Interesting that here "total depravity was affirmed by the Five Articles of Remonstrance," the very article you quoted to show that they didn't believe in total depravity.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Total_depravity
And two of those Five Articles:
- Article III — That man has not saving grace of himself, nor of the energy of his free will, inasmuch as he, in the state of apostasy and sin, can of and by himself neither think, will, nor do anything that is truly good (such as having faith eminently is); but that it is needful that he be born again of God in Christ, through his Holy Spirit, and renewed in understanding, inclination, or will, and all his powers, in order that he may rightly understand, think, will, and effect what is truly good, according to the word of Christ, John xv. 5: "Without me ye can do nothing."
- Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of a good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting, awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements, that can be conceived, must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, in as much as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.
Hence why it appears much of your position on the matter is based on straw-man arguments.
Many people say they are good enough to be saved. Do you think their idea of good aligns with God's idea of good?
Perhaps it would help to understand what is meant by total depravity.
'While often misunderstood, the doctrine of total depravity is an acknowledgement that the Bible teaches that as a result of the fall of man (Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18).
....
There is a common misconception regarding total depravity. Total depravity does not mean that man is as wicked or sinful as he could be, nor does it mean that man is without a conscience or any sense of right or wrong. Neither does it mean that man does not or cannot do things that seem to be good when viewed from a human perspective or measured against a human standard. It does not even mean that man cannot do things that seem to conform outwardly to the law of God. What the Bible does teach and what total depravity does recognize is that even the “good” things man does are tainted by sin because they are not done for the glory of God and out of faith in Him (Romans 14:23; Hebrews 11:6). While man looks upon the outward acts and judges them to be good, God looks upon not only the outward acts but also the inward motives that lie behind them, and because they proceed from a heart that is in rebellion against Him and they are not done for His glory, even these good deeds are like “filthy rags” in His sight. In other words, fallen man’s good deeds are motivated not by a desire to please God but by our own self-interest and are thus corrupted to the point where God declares that there is “no one who does good, no not one!”'
https://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html
I haven't said anything about what I believe. I am only putting forward what I think it is that Calvinist's believe.
As this is something Calvinism teaches, how can you not know it if you've studied what Calvinism actually teaches?
I've never seen that in the Bible. Do you have evidence for this?
Papyrus_dust
Member
Have you read Matthew chapter 9? Jesus was followed by two blind men who asked his mercy. Jesus inquired if they really did believe he could heal their blindness and they declared, yes!
He touched their eyes and said, "become what you believe". And they were healed. They could see.
He instructed they not tell anyone of that miracle but as soon as they could they were praising him for restoring their sight. And why not? People in the village would know two blind men had been blind. Now that they could see, how could that be? They had to answer. Jesus!
Become what you believe.
In this discussion we're witnessing those that believe eternal salvation is not so. They've become as followers what they believe. Now, in all the arguments that transpire from the mouths of such as that, it appears they're trying to lead others to become as they are.
The message of the two blind men who believed the master could heal them and it was done. They became what they believed. Healed by the touch of Christ forever of their blindness.
Get it?
It's just as easy to Google that as it is "Arminianism." A straw man argument is one where an individual ignores what an opponent's position actually is and instead, whether purposefully or due to ignorance, argues against a distorted or misrepresented position. It is fallacious because refuting a caricatured position does not in any way refute the actual position.
Perhaps that is not the best way to go about things. An opinion is one thing; an informed opinion is quite another. It really does seem that you haven't actually studied what Calvinist's believe from Calvinist sources. Hence why I believe most of your arguments against Calvinism are straw men.
That is what I said.
Perhaps you should study Calvinism from Calvinist sources.
I said that is what I think Calvinist's believe. I am certain it is what Reformed theology teaches.
Calvinists would say that since Paul was writing to believers, that he would be referring to those who would be saved.
Where is the humour in this:
"John Calvin, in my opinion, is in the book of 2nd opinions.
You see, there are first opinions of the Bible and then there are 2nd opinions.
Many people have written in the book of 2nd opinions.
Charles Russell, Joseph Smith, Ellen White, and many others, including John Calvin.
2nd Opinions is a popular book.
There seems to be as many people who want to debate the contents this book as much as they will debate the Word of God, the Holy Bible.
Some will debate 2nd opinions altogether, ignoring as much as possible the the Word of God, the Holy Bible."
Lumping John Calvin in with founders of cults? Not funny.
If you start with verse 13, the "we" and "Chosen" are not there.
Paul says in verse 12 "and you were also included"...
So this is how you finish post #86;
"Also notice we are chosen..we don't choose Jesus...predestined... "
You clump everyone together.
Paul spoke of "we", then he spoke of "you".
He never said we were all chosen.
False doctrine is false doctrine.
What can I say.
Charles Russell followers today claim to be born again.
Joseph Smith followers call themselves The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.
Ellen White followers are full of born again Christians, I'm sure as many as any other denomination.
And what can John Calvin claim for himself that is any better than that?
ezrider
Member
I was one in the lake drowning, but I could not see the others, because it was I who was drowning. But it was not God who passed by and cast me a rope. It was one of his servants. But I was weak, and try as I might I could not climb it. So another servant came and saw me drowning and cast his rope to me, pleading for me to grab on; and because I could not climb the first rope, I grabbed a hold of the second, and again I was unable to climb it. So then a third servant passed by, and a fourth, all casting their ropes for me to grab onto. I soon found myself holding on to four different ropes, from four different servants, all with good intentions; but as they each tried to pull me up, I found myself being pulled in four different directions, which was worse than the sensation of drowning, and so I finally let go and accepted my fate; I stopped fighting and accepted my death, I was ready drown.
But then my Lord passed by in a lifeboat, and he say climb aboard, but I could not climb in on my own, so he reached down and picked me up out of the water and placed me in his lifeboat. He strengthened me and nourished me, and gave to me the water of life to drink. He brought me to the place of still waters, and did sit me down under my own vine and my own fig tree, and told me to rest. My Lord passed by his garden often, and I did speak with him and he did teach me many things.
Many years passed by, and a visitor happened upon my vineyard. He was famished and acting a bit delirious, so I offered him some of the figs in my garden to eat, he spit it out complaining it was bitter; I offered him some of the grapes in my garden, and he declined, saying those grape make you drunk, and my lord said you shall not get drunk. So he said thank you, but I will find my lord the way.
But this visitor made me think about my own experience, when I was in the lake drowning. How I cried to the Lord, and he sent a servant to throw a rope. And when I cried again, he sent another servant, and then another servant, and then another, until I had finally given up and accepted my death. So when my Lord did come by for a visit, I asked him about that. I said why couldn't the servants save me? They each had a rope, and they threw their ropes to me, but none could save me?
And so he explained it to me. He said my servants were once slaves, and the ropes they carry used to keep them in bondage. They could not save you with the ropes, because they don't know how to use those ropes, because those ropes used to be the ropes that bound them. They could not free themselves from the rope until I came along and cut them loose, but then they expected you to save yourself by climbing a rope that kept themselves in bondage. It was not their job to save you, but only to pull you to safety. But you didn't find safety in one rope, so you grabbed for another, and then another. Then he explained to me, that none of his servants could pull me to safety on their own, because each being free, yet carrying their own ropes, they did not know how to use them, nor did they understand how to work together.
And then he continued by saying in reaching out and grabbing the first rope, you showed me you were willing. When you cried again, it showed me you wanted to live. When you cried the third time, it showed me you were determined. When you grabbed a hold of the fourth, I saw you fight, being stretched and pulled in all different directions. But then he said to me, it was when you gave up and let go of all those ropes of bondage and finally accepted your own death, did you realize that I was sitting there in that lifeboat all along. And he said unto me, did you not learn how to swim? Did you not get stronger by holding on? And in your weakness, did you not find me?
And then I said unto mt Lord, but what of the others who are drowning, should I not go and help pull them out? And he said unto me no, for now just sit under your vine and under your fig tree and rest. I will continue to send my servants, as I did for you. They may not know how to use the rope they have been set free from, but they are faithful servants in throwing that rope out to someone in need. Maybe one day you will be able to join me on the waters and look for those who have let go. And I said why not now? But he said, do you really think you have enough faith the walk upon the waters with me? And I was silent. And so I said okay Lord, it is sufficient that I sit at rest under my vine and under my fig tree in the Garden of my Lord and share my fruits with any visitor that should pass my way.
But I asked of my Lord, but what of all those in the lake that are drowning, those who are to far out to reach the ropes of your servants, or those who have given up but cling to the seaweed? What of them? And he said unto me, what of them? Am I not the creator of the heavens and the earth? Do you think that I can not pluck out of the water whom I shall chose? Do you not think that I could command the waters to be removed, and they would not obey? And in the day of their calamity, if they should drown, do you not think that I could revive them? And so I said thank you Lord, I understand. But Lord, if I might ask, is the fruit that I offer still a bit bitter? Perhaps I should just sit at rest under my vine and under my fig tree until my fruit has ripened a bit and become sweeter to the lips?
In my opinion we need to quit listening to all of mans opinions and get back to truth as we all have a Bible and hopefully we are all indwelled with the Holy Spirit that needs to be teaching all of us first and foremost. Gods not about a mans religion or doctrine of their flavor of church they choose to attend , but is all about us having a personal relationship with His Son Christ Jesus.
So is that your excuse for always being different?
Papyrus_dust
Member
OK, I've read the word Calvinism, more here than I've heard it spoken in my entire life. I only learned of the teaching last year.
I gotta ask this. What's the deal with opposition to it here? I've read people condemn it, I've read people who don't really know what it is being chastised for making disparaging remarks about it.
What is it about Calvinism that garners this much attention? And not the good kind apparently.
I gotta ask this. What's the deal with opposition to it here? I've read people condemn it, I've read people who don't really know what it is being chastised for making disparaging remarks about it.
What is it about Calvinism that garners this much attention? And not the good kind apparently.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
Well EZ, you should certainly have been a poet.
And on much we will agree, but on who chooses to be saved we will not.
You did change my analogy, but no matter...yours was very nice.
I do think, however, that God does care for those who are drowing.
While you're in your garden and at peace, He also is helping the others.
Who is "whosoever" in John 3:16?
No other verse is necessary it seems to me.
God want us all to be saved, but not all will be saved because of our choice not to be.
Sometimes you speak to me as if I'm a legalist -- no matter. I'm not, but we're still brothers in the Lord and I will not debate against your sweet nature.
GodsGrace
CF Ambassador
I agree FHG.In my opinion we need to quit listening to all of mans opinions and get back to truth as we all have a Bible and hopefully we are all indwelled with the Holy Spirit that needs to be teaching all of us first and foremost. Gods not about a mans religion or doctrine of their flavor of church they choose to attend , but is all about us having a personal relationship with His Son Christ Jesus.
But Calvinism is bad theology...
bad, bad, bad.
It changes God into a being I don't recognize...
It's sort of like saying "Joel Osteen".
Just say the name and a big debate breaks out.
People.
Who can figure them?
No,Im not afraid to challenge what I'm taught and see if it's what the bible supports.
I know people who I believe are sincere and all disagree.how is that possible ?
The more I think I know,the less I do. If have full revelation ,I have doubts to those that claim since the apostles didn't claim that .for we see in part .God doesn't reveal it all.