[_ Old Earth _] In Six Days

[Barbarian]

That is not my burden but rather people who add to God's Word and redefining a day of creation to 24 hrs .. now that's a terrible sin and it's their burden.

It's not a sin at all. It's just a disagreement on something incidental. It has no bearing on one's love of God or one's obedience to Him. It's just a quibble about the details.

If we decide that such things are essential to Christian faith, we put obstacles in the way of others coming to Him. And that would be a shame.

 

[Sparkey]

It is considered a sin to think that a day is 24 hours? Absurd.

 

[felix]

This conversation has become strange to me. It is now considered a sin to think that a day is 24 hours? Absurd.

So who told you that a day is 24 hrs? How did anyone got the value 24 hrs? I belive God's Word is refined 7 times and doesn't require any additions.

~ Felix

 

[Sparkey]

You keep on saying "additions" like you mean something by it. Care to clarify? Send me a PM if you'd like. In the meantime, saying "I'll meet you in six days," has a very specific meaning in every context. Know you not that your days too are numbered? We are told that it is good to learn to number our days. "So teach [us] to number our days, that we may apply [our] hearts unto wisdom." (Ps 90:12)

 

[felix]

You keep on saying "additions" like you mean something by it. Care to clarify? Send me a PM if you'd like. In the meantime, saying "I'll meet you in six days," has a very specific meaning in every context. Know you not that your days too are numbered? We are told that it is good to learn to number our days. "So teach [us] to number our days, that we may apply [our] hearts unto wisdom." (Ps 90:12)

Gen 1:5 God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.

It is the "light", God called as Day - not sunset or sunrise. Nor did God specify any timeline for each day. The definition is valid even today which has nothing to do with Sun. While the definition of a day has nothing to do with Sun, God allowed to rule the day only on the 4th day of Creation that too for humans for signs and seasons - not for Himself to be bound by it to be on schedule for Creation.

So, whatever God said and God did is more than sufficient and historically accurate "if" we don't add things like "24 hrs" etc.

If we ourselves deny God's Word which proves a dateless past for earth, how then will any rational secular thinker will accept us, having overwhelming evidence for older earth? God's Word and Bible do not deny any scientific evidences.

 

[Free Christian]

Hi all. My mention of numbering pattern was only in reference to the article I gave the link for. Did someone assume it was like the Dv code.
Wow, thought people would have looked at the link first! (no disrespect in the wow)
When we have things that we practice or believe based on the Bible it must be supported by the Bible. like, what we base ourselves being saved by, that Jesus rose from the dead, how to act as Christians and so on. We know we do it right or have it right because we have clear examples in the Bible to see, scripture. We then find our belief and practices are scripture based. Just like we have numerous examples throughout the Bible, Jesus quoting scripture as proof, the New Testament writers quoting scripture as proof. Six Day, 24hr, believers can do the same, no problems. Non Six Day'ers cannot do the same. We today classify a day as 24hr's. Back then though they did not have watches or time pieces as we have. So, how would God show us that it was a day as would be recognised throughout all generations? He told us morning and evening. As everyone would recognise it from ancient to present. He gave us His creation and rest in a "week" time frame, seven days. Again recognisable to all generations. The very week time frame we use today. Where do we think our week came from, our day came from? God and His creation "days and week". Yes I will stand by my claim that believing that taking the creation any other way than God told us is heresy, non Biblical. When someone can supply just one evidence from scripture, like Jesus and the New Testament writers did as example of something being Biblical, then it will stay heresy. We can give all sorts of dictionary meanings to words, but in Biblical terms do you think that the Apostles would have viewed unbiblical teachings with no scripture proofs any other way?

 

[felix]

Hi all. My mention of numbering pattern was only in reference to the article I gave the link for. Did someone assume it was like the Dv code.
Wow, thought people would have looked at the link first! (no disrespect in the wow)
When we have things that we practice or believe based on the Bible it must be supported by the Bible. like, what we base ourselves being saved by, that Jesus rose from the dead, how to act as Christians and so on. We know we do it right or have it right because we have clear examples in the Bible to see, scripture. We then find our belief and practices are scripture based. Just like we have numerous examples throughout the Bible, Jesus quoting scripture as proof, the New Testament writers quoting scripture as proof. Six Day, 24hr, believers can do the same, no problems. Non Six Day'ers cannot do the same. We today classify a day as 24hr's. Back then though they did not have watches or time pieces as we have. So, how would God show us that it was a day as would be recognised throughout all generations? He told us morning and evening. As everyone would recognise it from ancient to present. He gave us His creation and rest in a "week" time frame, seven days. Again recognisable to all generations. The very week time frame we use today. Where do we think our week came from, our day came from? God and His creation "days and week". Yes I will stand by my claim that believing that taking the creation any other way than God told us is heresy, non Biblical. When someone can supply just one evidence from scripture, like Jesus and the New Testament writers did as example of something being Biblical, then it will stay heresy. We can give all sorts of dictionary meanings to words, but in Biblical terms do you think that the Apostles would have viewed unbiblical teachings with no scripture proofs any other way?

Proof from the author of Hebrews:

Heb 4:4-5 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh [day] in this way: [ "And God rested on the seventh day from all His works"]; and again in this [place:] [ "They shall not enter My rest."]
Heb 4:9-11 There remains therefore a rest for the people of God. For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God [did] from His. Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

If God rested on 7th day and this "rest" is a future event, which day are we on? 6th day.

 

[Free Christian]

Hello Felix. I have no idea what on earth you are talking about!

 

[felix]

Hello Felix. I have no idea what on earth you are talking about!

To understand this, you must understand that God is not bound by time. Think of time as a piece of paper on His hand. For Him, a billion years from now or a billion years in past means nothing to Him because He is from a place where time doesn't exist. However, He clearly states that there are 7 days out of which 6 days He created and 7th day He rested (Exod 20:11). You must be thinking God has been resting or had rested in the past if the 7th day is over, but Jesus says "No" in (John 5:17) which is an exclusive verse regarding Sabbath or rest. How is that the 7th day is not over for us, from our view of time, when God says He already rested? This is because, God can declare the end from the beginning and from ancient times things that are not yet done (Isa 46:10) for He is not bound by time - for Him, End is same as Beginning because, He is the Beginning and the End, the Alpha and Omega (Rev 1:8).

There is only 7 days on God's calendar which is the creation week and the 7th day is our rest with Him. He instituted the same pattern of His calender for us to follow using the Sun for each day and a the weekly Sabbath every 7 days. Hope this helps.

 

[Free Christian]

Hi Felix. "I must understand God is not bound by time", I have read the Bible where it says one day is as one thousand and how He is eternal so I am aware of that. "I must be thinking God has been resting"? Huh? I again have got no idea what that comment refers to or what you assume I think? What has Hebrews got to do with any of what we have been discussing? Those passages are in reference to the rest we have in Christ, the Gospel, heaven with God. What do they have to do with proving/disproving the creation week or time frame?? Sorry but I really don't get it at all, it seems totally out of context.

 

[felix]

"I must understand God is not bound by time", I have read the Bible where it says one day is as one thousand and how He is eternal so I am aware of that.

Titus 1:2 in hope of eternal life which God, who cannot lie, promised before time began

God created time as well. If He created time, how can He be bound by it? Which is why He said to Moses, I AM who I AM, I am always there ... not that it means God was simple doing nothing for billions of years and all of a sudden He created something in recent past, but rather, He thought and created everything immediately because before that time doesn't exist.

What has Hebrews got to do with any of what we have been discussing? Those passages are in reference to the rest we have in Christ, the Gospel, heaven with God. What do they have to do with proving/disproving the creation week or time frame?? Sorry but I really don't get it at all, it seems totally out of context.

The author of Hebrews is specifically referring to one particular day of Creation and pointing it to be a future event. Read Heb 4 again.

 

[Free Christian]

I cannot recall anyone here at all saying God is bound by time, or implying it. Myself or any of the others, whether we are for or against Six Day creation. So I am at a total loss as to where that comes in here. Im pretty sure we all agree, myself and the others, that God created time as we know it. From what I read God did not create everything immediately but in a period of Six Days. You say God "thought and created everything immediately" yet I don't see that in scripture. I hope you have a nice day Felix.

 

[felix]

I cannot recall anyone here at all saying God is bound by time, or implying it. Myself or any of the others, whether we are for or against Six Day creation. So I am at a total loss as to where that comes in here. Im pretty sure we all agree, myself and the others, that God created time as we know it. From what I read God did not create everything immediately but in a period of Six Days. You say God "thought and created everything immediately" yet I don't see that in scripture. I hope you have a nice day Felix.

My reply was for you to understand my earlier reply which is to show that 24 hrs is not Biblical and even according to NT. I never disputed 6 days according to God's definition of a day, but 144 hrs, is unbiblical.

"thought and created everything immediately" - that's because, you don't still believe He created time. If you understand and truly believe God created time, then there is no "time period" between the beginning and the end. I honestly advise you to take a moment and think that you are with God outside the realm of time boundaries for you visualize and take every property of time to halt - no past, no present, no future - only God. You are flowing on time but God is not. For Him, your present is same as your past and future. If you are able to imagine that, then you will understand what I am speaking about.

I know it is hard to understand but once you understand this, you will even say God is not eternal. But rather, He is more than eternal because, "eternal" itself is a measure of time which God created and He Himself cannot be bound by it. However, the only way God can explain His awesome power to a futile humans is by saying "eternal".

 

[Sparkey]

That is not my burden but rather people who add to God's Word and redefining a day of creation to 24 hrs .. now that's a terrible sin and it's their burden.

The Hebrew word yom is used 2301 times in the Old Testament. Of those 2,301 times the word is used, where else would it be 'terrible sin' to think that a day means a day?

 

[felix]

That is not my burden but rather people who add to God's Word and redefining a day of creation to 24 hrs .. now that's a terrible sin and it's their burden.

The Hebrew word yom is used 2301 times in the Old Testament. Of those 2,301 times the word is used, where else would it be 'terrible sin' to think that a day means a day?

It is not a terrible sin to consider a day as a day but as 24 hrs when God did not define that way. Changing the definition of a day as 24 hrs is changing what God defined in Gen 1:5. Now, that's a terrible sin.

 

[Sparkey]

Hi all. My mention of numbering pattern was only in reference to the article I gave the link for. Did someone assume it was like the Dv code.

Thanks for clearing that up for us. You know how it is, well ... at least for me. The media (movies this time) helps form concepts within us and I too have an association between terms such as "numbering patterns" and the now famous Da Vinci Code movie.

I have gone to the link that you listed and searched for the article you mentioned.

• The numbering pattern of Genesis. Sub-title: Does it mean the days are non-literal?
  by Jonathan Sarfati

The article speaks about what some linguists have concluded regarding the 6th Day too, and addresses the current issues being discussed in this very thread.

... Another evening and morning constituted “a” (not “the”) second day. Another evening and morning made a third day, and so forth. On the sixth day, the article finally appears. But even here, the grammar is strange, since there is no article on יום as would be expected. This would indicate that the sixth day was a regular solar day, but that it was also the culminating day of creation.

-Jonathan Sarfati

 

[felix]

The article speaks about what some linguists have concluded regarding the 6th Day too, and addresses the current issues being discussed in this very thread.

... Another evening and morning constituted “a” (not “the”) second day. Another evening and morning made a third day, and so forth. On the sixth day, the article finally appears. But even here, the grammar is strange, since there is no article on יום as would be expected. This would indicate that the sixth day was a regular solar day, but that it was also the culminating day of creation.

-Jonathan Sarfati

Is Hebrew 4 speaking about "a" regular solar day or "the 7th day? If so, why is the day which was apparently over (because God rested), yet the same chapter clearly mentions that rest or Sabbath it as a future event?

 

[Sparkey]

God defined in Gen 1:5. Now, that's a terrible sin

"God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."

Let me remind you, I have not stated that I was there at the time. It is my thought that a day may be considered to be a 24 hour period. Of course, it may also be considered a 12 hour period of time. I hope that clears things up.

 

[Sparkey]

Hi all. My mention of numbering pattern was only in reference to the article I gave the link for. Did someone assume it was like the Dv code.

Thanks for clearing that up for us. You know how it is, well ... at least for me. The media (movies this time) helps form concepts within us and I too have an association between terms such as "numbering patterns" and the now famous Da Vinci Code movie.

I have gone to the link that you listed and searched for the article you mentioned.

• The numbering pattern of Genesis. Sub-title: Does it mean the days are non-literal?
  by Jonathan Sarfati

The article speaks about what some linguists have concluded regarding the 6th Day too, and addresses the current issues being discussed in this very thread.

... Another evening and morning constituted “a” (not “the”) second day. Another evening and morning made a third day, and so forth. On the sixth day, the article finally appears. But even here, the grammar is strange, since there is no article on יום as would be expected. This would indicate that the sixth day was a regular solar day, but that it was also the culminating day of creation.

-Jonathan Sarfati

Is Hebrew 4 speaking about "a" regular solar day or "the 7th day? If so, why is the day which was apparently over (because God rested), yet the same chapter clearly mentions that rest or Sabbath it as a future event?

felix, I addressed this to Free Christian and would like to be allowed to wait for his reply. To you: have you read the article that he cited? Perhaps that study will shed light on your query. My post #78 was made to continue our conversation, and I'd like to hear back from you about the 'terrible sin' you've mentioned before we hop over to other concerns. Shall we proceed in order then?

 

[felix]

God defined in Gen 1:5. Now, that's a terrible sin

"God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day."

Let me remind you, I have not stated that I was there at the time. It is my thought that a day may be considered to be a 24 hour period. Of course, it may also be considered a 12 hour period of time. I hope that clears things up.

Yes, that clears it up. Basically, the point I am trying to say is, Bible is not against older earth.