Indwelling Holy Spirit/ Baptism Holy Spirit

[awaken]

I think that Salvation and the baptism are two very different things. All of us already have God's spirit inside of us. Because in Genesis when God was creating Adam it says that he breathed on Him. And the original hebrew translation used the word "Ruach" [im probably spelling that wrong though. haha.] and that word has two meanings. One of them is breath. And the other is Spirit. So not only has God breathing life into him, but also breathing his spirit into him. We are all sons and daughters of Adam, therefore, we have it already too. But the Holy Spirit is often referred to in the New Testament as "The Advocate" and the word advocate means, "A person who pleads for, on behalf of another; intercessor." So this leads me to believe that when we were created with God's breath and spirit inside of us it's something different than the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yes, it's all from the same God, and part of the same trinity. But, they serve two different purposes. One was to give us life. And the other was to communicate to us directly from the Father, the Holy Spirit brings us knowledge, wisdom, discernment, prophecy, speaking in tongues, adn more.
this is all just my opinion.
i'm always up for debate. Not for arguments sake, but because i like hearing other's opinions and having to stand for my own.

~Daynayee

Interesting opinion...
I am still learning about the difference in the spirit breathed in man at the garden..and the spirit that indwells us now. So are you saying that Adam had the indwelling Spirit at creation..and he lost it?

Define what you're meaning by "Indwelling Spirit"??

Well..this is what I am hoping to resolve by this thread..
I see the indwelling Spirit and the baptism.. different experiences...
If Adam received the Holy Spirit in him during creation...then did he lose it when he fell?
What did Jesus die on the cross to reconcile?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi awaken

I thought I answered this. It was a preparation for the day of pentecost. Sort of like a practice , before the big day.

I quess what I should of ask..is how you come to the conclusion that it was just practice?

Hi awaken

If you read all of the gospels where Jesus taught his disciples. You will notice that everything he taught them was in preparation for the day of pentecost as well as after the day of pentecost. Which is why he told them that he would not leave them comfortless. That he would send the comforter in his name = Christ in them. And that the comforter would teach them and remind them of all the things he said and taught them while here on earth. He even gave them power to go out and heal. As practice. And they found out that there were circumstances as to why or why not someone was healed. And after just a short practice sessions, this power was taken away from them, until after the day of pentecost.[/quote]

Where does it say it was taken away from them for a short time?

Sorry for the questions..you are throwing things out there that I have never pondered on..haha. IT is ok..I like it when people get me to thinking![/quote][/quote][/quote]


Hi awaken

Yes, we put our noses back into scripture and allow God to open up the eyes of our understanding.

Okay, that said --- In Matt. 10:5 Jesus took these twelve and told them - then in verse 8 he told them to - "heal the scik, cleanse th elepers, raise the dead, cast our devils : freely ye have received , freely give". Verse 20 - "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". Then read Matt. 11:1 --- Then Matt.14:26 - 31 ----- Then Matt. 17:8 - 12 --- Now read Matt. 17:15 - 20 --Now read Matt. 17:24 - 27 < I love this verse 27 here ---- Now read Matt. 19:9 - 15 ---- Then read Matt. 19:23 ---- Now read Matt. 20:17 - 19 ------ Now read Matt. 21:19 - 22 ----- Now read the disciples 401 K plan - Matt. 24:9 ----- Now read Luke 16:15 - 19 ----- Now read Luke 24:45 - 50 ---- Now read Acts 1:2 - 5 and now read verse 8

I know that this is much to read. But you will notice that he sent out his disciple to heal for a time. The rest was training. Remembering Luke 24:49 - Then in Acts 1:8 he tells them "ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"

 

[daynayee]

I think that Salvation and the baptism are two very different things. All of us already have God's spirit inside of us. Because in Genesis when God was creating Adam it says that he breathed on Him. And the original hebrew translation used the word "Ruach" [im probably spelling that wrong though. haha.] and that word has two meanings. One of them is breath. And the other is Spirit. So not only has God breathing life into him, but also breathing his spirit into him. We are all sons and daughters of Adam, therefore, we have it already too. But the Holy Spirit is often referred to in the New Testament as "The Advocate" and the word advocate means, "A person who pleads for, on behalf of another; intercessor." So this leads me to believe that when we were created with God's breath and spirit inside of us it's something different than the baptism of the Holy Spirit. Yes, it's all from the same God, and part of the same trinity. But, they serve two different purposes. One was to give us life. And the other was to communicate to us directly from the Father, the Holy Spirit brings us knowledge, wisdom, discernment, prophecy, speaking in tongues, adn more.
this is all just my opinion.
i'm always up for debate. Not for arguments sake, but because i like hearing other's opinions and having to stand for my own.

~Daynayee[/quote]

Interesting opinion...
I am still learning about the difference in the spirit breathed in man at the garden..and the spirit that indwells us now. So are you saying that Adam had the indwelling Spirit at creation..and he lost it?[/quote]

Define what you're meaning by "Indwelling Spirit"??[/quote]

Well..this is what I am hoping to resolve by this thread..
I see the indwelling Spirit and the baptism.. different experiences...
If Adam received the Holy Spirit in him during creation...then did he lose it when he fell?
What did Jesus die on the cross to reconcile?[/quote]


I think that when you're saying "indwelling spirit, you're almost referring to Christ who enters our hearts when we are saved.. That's the only thing that i can think of how to try to come up with a meaning.. Am i right?
Then i'll answer your questions in another/different reply...

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken

Yes, we put our noses back into scripture and allow God to open up the eyes of our understanding.

Okay, that said --- In Matt. 10:5 Jesus took these twelve and told them - then in verse 8 he told them to - "heal the scik, cleanse th elepers, raise the dead, cast our devils : freely ye have received , freely give". Verse 20 - "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". Then read Matt. 11:1 --- Then Matt.14:26 - 31 ----- Then Matt. 17:8 - 12 --- Now read Matt. 17:15 - 20 --Now read Matt. 17:24 - 27 < I love this verse 27 here ---- Now read Matt. 19:9 - 15 ---- Then read Matt. 19:23 ---- Now read Matt. 20:17 - 19 ------ Now read Matt. 21:19 - 22 ----- Now read the disciples 401 K plan - Matt. 24:9 ----- Now read Luke 16:15 - 19 ----- Now read Luke 24:45 - 50 ---- Now read Acts 1:2 - 5 and now read verse 8

I know that this is much to read. But you will notice that he sent out his disciple to heal for a time. The rest was training. Remembering Luke 24:49 - Then in Acts 1:8 he tells them "ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"

ok..I read it. I understand that the disciples were in training. Are saying the the Holy Spirit was only on them for a time. When Jesus left they lost their power? Until the day of Pentecost..hmmmm

What about Mark 16:20 After Jesus was received up into heaven.."And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." This was between the ascension and Pentecost..so when did the power stop??

 

[awaken]

I think that when you're saying "indwelling spirit, you're almost referring to Christ who enters our hearts when we are saved.. That's the only thing that i can think of how to try to come up with a meaning.. Am i right?
Then i'll answer your questions in another/different reply...

Yes, this is how I understand it...

 

[awaken]

Things I have considered as to when the disciples were saved...

First of all, notice what the Bible says in Romans 10:9:
"if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

While Jesus was alive, the disciples had confessed Him as Lord (John 13:13). But were the disciples saved at that point because they did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ (since Jesus had not yet died).

On Resurrection Sunday, the day Christ rose from the dead, He came to the disciples in a locked room:

"On the evening of that first day of the week [Resurrection Sunday], when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, "Peace be with you!" After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord. Again Jesus said, "Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you."" (John 20:19-21)

At this point the disciples believed in the bodily resurrection of Christ, right? So..when the disciples were told to received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday..could it be they accepted salvation?

 

[Mysteryman]

Hi awaken

Yes, we put our noses back into scripture and allow God to open up the eyes of our understanding.

Okay, that said --- In Matt. 10:5 Jesus took these twelve and told them - then in verse 8 he told them to - "heal the scik, cleanse th elepers, raise the dead, cast our devils : freely ye have received , freely give". Verse 20 - "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". Then read Matt. 11:1 --- Then Matt.14:26 - 31 ----- Then Matt. 17:8 - 12 --- Now read Matt. 17:15 - 20 --Now read Matt. 17:24 - 27 < I love this verse 27 here ---- Now read Matt. 19:9 - 15 ---- Then read Matt. 19:23 ---- Now read Matt. 20:17 - 19 ------ Now read Matt. 21:19 - 22 ----- Now read the disciples 401 K plan - Matt. 24:9 ----- Now read Luke 16:15 - 19 ----- Now read Luke 24:45 - 50 ---- Now read Acts 1:2 - 5 and now read verse 8

I know that this is much to read. But you will notice that he sent out his disciple to heal for a time. The rest was training. Remembering Luke 24:49 - Then in Acts 1:8 he tells them "ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"

ok..I read it. I understand that the disciples were in training. Are saying the the Holy Spirit was only on them for a time. When Jesus left they lost their power? Until the day of Pentecost..hmmmm

What about Mark 16:20 After Jesus was received up into heaven.."And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." This was between the ascension and Pentecost..so when did the power stop??

Hi awaken

Verse 19 of Mark chapter 16 he ascended. Verse 20 is after pentecost.

They lost any power given them, on, or just before the day of his betrayal.

 

[awaken]

Hi awaken

Yes, we put our noses back into scripture and allow God to open up the eyes of our understanding.

Okay, that said --- In Matt. 10:5 Jesus took these twelve and told them - then in verse 8 he told them to - "heal the scik, cleanse th elepers, raise the dead, cast our devils : freely ye have received , freely give". Verse 20 - "For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you". Then read Matt. 11:1 --- Then Matt.14:26 - 31 ----- Then Matt. 17:8 - 12 --- Now read Matt. 17:15 - 20 --Now read Matt. 17:24 - 27 < I love this verse 27 here ---- Now read Matt. 19:9 - 15 ---- Then read Matt. 19:23 ---- Now read Matt. 20:17 - 19 ------ Now read Matt. 21:19 - 22 ----- Now read the disciples 401 K plan - Matt. 24:9 ----- Now read Luke 16:15 - 19 ----- Now read Luke 24:45 - 50 ---- Now read Acts 1:2 - 5 and now read verse 8

I know that this is much to read. But you will notice that he sent out his disciple to heal for a time. The rest was training. Remembering Luke 24:49 - Then in Acts 1:8 he tells them "ye shall receive power after the Holy Spirit is come upon you"

ok..I read it. I understand that the disciples were in training. Are saying the the Holy Spirit was only on them for a time. When Jesus left they lost their power? Until the day of Pentecost..hmmmm

What about Mark 16:20 After Jesus was received up into heaven.."And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following." This was between the ascension and Pentecost..so when did the power stop??

Hi awaken

Verse 19 of Mark chapter 16 he ascended. Verse 20 is after pentecost.

They lost any power given them, on, or just before the day of his betrayal.

Ok..from the betrayal to Pentecost..no power! except what Jesus demonstrated while walking among them for 40 days.

THey were waiting for the promise of the Father..the baptism of the Holy Spirit.
I can see this..except I believe more than the apostles were baptized that day.

But salvation...we just have to believe.."if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote awaken: "But salvation...we just have to believe.."if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)"


Hi awaken

Now we have strayed from the topic at hand.

We do not believe to get saved, we believe because we are saved.

Salvation was predestined, unto those who have been chosen from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4

Jesus only prepared the 12 and one was the betrayer. So only eleven plus the one where the lots had fallen upon - Matthias

These 12 when the day of pentecost had fully come , were with one accord in one place. And filled the house where they were sitting. < This is not the upper room !

The comforter that Jesus sends, was sent after he ascended up into heaven. Which is in them, not upon them. It is the gift of the holy spirit that came upon them on the day of pentecost. And only upon these 12.

The "power"of the Holy Spirit is upon them. This happened on the day of pentecost.

 

[awaken]

Quote awaken: "But salvation...we just have to believe.."if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)"


Hi awaken

Now we have strayed from the topic at hand.

We do not believe to get saved, we believe because we are saved.

Salvation was predestined, unto those who have been chosen from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4

Jesus only prepared the 12 and one was the betrayer. So only eleven plus the one where the lots had fallen upon - Matthias

These 12 when the day of pentecost had fully come , were with one accord in one place. And filled the house where they were sitting. < This is not the upper room !

The comforter that Jesus sends, was sent after he ascended up into heaven. Which is in them, not upon them. It is the gift of the holy spirit that came upon them on the day of pentecost. And only upon these 12.

The "power"of the Holy Spirit is upon them. This happened on the day of pentecost.

We will just have to agree to disagree on who the power came on the day of Pentecost...
Didn't Jesus ascend to heaven during the three days he was suppose to be in the grave?

What This thread is for is to help determine..if there is a difference in the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation of the Old Testament saints..up to John..did they have the indwelling Spirit?
So you believe that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with ones salvation..that was determined before the foundation of the world?

 

[Mysteryman]

Quote awaken: "But salvation...we just have to believe.."if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9)"


Hi awaken

Now we have strayed from the topic at hand.

We do not believe to get saved, we believe because we are saved.

Salvation was predestined, unto those who have been chosen from before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4

Jesus only prepared the 12 and one was the betrayer. So only eleven plus the one where the lots had fallen upon - Matthias

These 12 when the day of pentecost had fully come , were with one accord in one place. And filled the house where they were sitting. < This is not the upper room !

The comforter that Jesus sends, was sent after he ascended up into heaven. Which is in them, not upon them. It is the gift of the holy spirit that came upon them on the day of pentecost. And only upon these 12.

The "power"of the Holy Spirit is upon them. This happened on the day of pentecost.

We will just have to agree to disagree on who the power came on the day of Pentecost...
Didn't Jesus ascend to heaven during the three days he was suppose to be in the grave?

What This thread is for is to help determine..if there is a difference in the indwelling Holy Spirit and the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Salvation of the Old Testament saints..up to John..did they have the indwelling Spirit?
So you believe that the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with ones salvation..that was determined before the foundation of the world?

Hi awaken

1. No , Jesus did not ascend into heaven during the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

2. There is no difference between the baptism of the Holy Spirit and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It just means that God works in you to do his good will and pleasure.

3.Salvation of the OT saints was based upon the promise of God, that a saviour , the messiah would come.

4. Being baptized with the Holy Spirit has nothing to do with one's salvation. It only has to do with "Power"

 

[awaken]

1. No , Jesus did not ascend into heaven during the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I will address one at a time..

"It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father." (John 13:1)

Just before the Last Supper, on the night before Jesus was crucified, He knew that the time had come for Him to leave this world and go to the Father. Is this referring to the Ascension, which was still a month and a half away, or did Jesus leave this world and go to the Father at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection? I believe He went to the Father on the day He was resurrected and I will show you why..

Here's what He said to the disciples on the night before He was crucified:
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe." (John 14:28-29)

Jesus said that He was going to the Father and then coming back to the disciples, and then they would believe the things He said about Himself. When did the disciples believe these things? On the day that Jesus was resurrected (John 20:19-31). On Resurrection Sunday, Jesus went to the Father and then returned to the earth, just as He promised He would.

another one..
Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:5-7)

On the night before Jesus was crucified, He said that now He was going to the Father. He was not referring to the Ascension because that was still a month and a half away. He was referring to the time of His crucifixion and resurrection. Then Jesus said that unless He "goes away," the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) will not come. Jesus "went away" to the Father on the day that He was resurrected, and that is why He was able to impart the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit to the disciples on the evening of Resurrection Sunday.

 

[awaken]

Here's another one:

"Some of his disciples said to one another, "What does he mean by saying, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me,' and 'Because I am going to the Father'?" They kept asking, "What does he mean by 'a little while'? We don't understand what he is saying." Jesus saw that they wanted to ask him about this, so he said to them, "Are you asking one another what I meant when I said, 'In a little while you will see me no more, and then after a little while you will see me'? I tell you the truth, you will weep and mourn while the world rejoices. You will grieve, but your grief will turn to joy."" (John 16:17-20)

On the night before He was crucified, Jesus told the disciples that in a little while they would no longer see Him because He was going to the Father. Then after a little while they would see Him again and their grief would turn to joy. When did the disciples see Jesus again, and when did their grief turn to joy? On the day that Jesus was resurrected (John 20:19-20). When Jesus said that He was going to the Father and then returning to the earth, and their grief would then turn to joy, He was referring to Resurrection Sunday, not the Ascension.

 

[Mysteryman]

1. No , Jesus did not ascend into heaven during the three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

I will address one at a time..

"It was just before the Passover Feast. Jesus knew that the time had come for him to leave this world and go to the Father." (John 13:1)

Just before the Last Supper, on the night before Jesus was crucified, He knew that the time had come for Him to leave this world and go to the Father. Is this referring to the Ascension, which was still a month and a half away, or did Jesus leave this world and go to the Father at the time of His crucifixion and resurrection? I believe He went to the Father on the day He was resurrected and I will show you why..

Here's what He said to the disciples on the night before He was crucified:
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe." (John 14:28-29)

Jesus said that He was going to the Father and then coming back to the disciples, and then they would believe the things He said about Himself. When did the disciples believe these things? On the day that Jesus was resurrected (John 20:19-31). On Resurrection Sunday, Jesus went to the Father and then returned to the earth, just as He promised He would.

another one..
Now I am going to him who sent me, yet none of you asks me, 'Where are you going?' Because I have said these things, you are filled with grief. But I tell you the truth: It is for your good that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Counselor will not come to you; but if I go, I will send him to you." (John 16:5-7)

On the night before Jesus was crucified, He said that now He was going to the Father. He was not referring to the Ascension because that was still a month and a half away. He was referring to the time of His crucifixion and resurrection. Then Jesus said that unless He "goes away," the Counselor (the Holy Spirit) will not come. Jesus "went away" to the Father on the day that He was resurrected, and that is why He was able to impart the permanent, indwelling Holy Spirit to the disciples on the evening of Resurrection Sunday.

Hi

First, if he went to the Father just after he died, then he would not be dead.

Second, if he went to the Father after his resurrection, again he would not be here, and there would be no need for the ascention. Which then would not be a necessity, thus redundant.

John chapters 14 and chapter 16 is talking about the comforter, which is "Christ in you" - After his ascention, he would send the comforter, which is -- "Christ in you"

 

[faithtransforms]

What Are We Told to Look For As Evidence that a Person Has Received Salvation?
When did the Old Testament Saints recieve the indwelling Holy Spirit?

The only outward evidence of a person receiving salvation is a changed life. The OT saints had the Spirit of God "ON THEM", not "IN" them.

In Acts, it talks about how surprised Paul was when he saw that the Holy Spirit had fallen on the Gentiles. The Gentiles spoke with other tongues, that's how he knew they had received the IN-FILLING of the Holy Ghost.

The Bible never tells us that we should look for supernatural manifestations as evidence that a person is saved.
We can recognize Jesus' true disciples by their "fruit." This is described as being obedience to God's commands, acknowledging that Jesus Christ is the Son of God who has come in the flesh, and displaying the fruit of the Spirit (Galatians 5:22-23) by loving each other with actions and in truth. These are the things that we are told to look for as evidence that a person has received salvation. The Bible never tells us to look for supernatural manifestations as evidence of anyone's salvation.

Most Christian denominations believe that the indwelling Holy Spirit is automatically received by a person at the moment of salvation. But is this the same thing as the "baptism" of the Holy Spirit?

Like I said in the Marks of a True Christian thread, the only outward sign of salvation is a changed life, ie fruit.

However, the infilling of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in tongues is a separate experience. Those Gentiles in Acts were already born again.

ACTS 19:
1And it came to pass , that, while Apollos was *at Corinth, Paul having passed through the upper coasts came to Ephesus: and finding certain disciples,
2 He said unto them *, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed ? And they said unto him *, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.
3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized ? And they said , Unto John's baptism.
4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is , on Christ Jesus.
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied .

They had been baptized in John's baptism. They believed in Jesus, at which point they were born again by the Holy Spirit. They were baptized in the name of father, son & holy ghost. They already believed, and at that point they were saved, THEN Paul laid hands on the and they received the IN FILLING of the Holy Ghost. The in-filling is a separate experience.

 

[daynayee]

I think that when you're saying "indwelling spirit, you're almost referring to Christ who enters our hearts when we are saved.. That's the only thing that i can think of how to try to come up with a meaning.. Am i right?
Then i'll answer your questions in another/different reply...

Yes, this is how I understand it...

Then if this is what you're referring to then there is a major difference in the Baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the spirit.
Indwelling of the spirit is our salvation. It's when Christ enters our hearts when we get saved.
And the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when we recieve the Holy Spirit, i believe there is a difference between Christ living on our hearts and the Holy Spirit. With the baptism of the Holy Spirit we recieve the spiritual gifts, the power that christ had, and speaking in tongue, etc.
if that made sense and was worded correctly.....?

 

[cyberjosh]

Well..this is what I am hoping to resolve by this thread..
I see the indwelling Spirit and the baptism.. different experiences...

This is admittedly a tough subject for me to understand, but from my own perspective, experience,and study thus far I have come to believe that when a person is saved they are Baptized into and by the Holy Spirit, which is also the Baptism into the Body (1 Corinthians 12:13) with the rest of the believers who have received the Spirit as a guarantee (downpayment/dowry; Greek: arrabon). I came to this understanding after studying what the power (Greek: dunamis) from on high (Acts 1:8) that was promised to the disciples was, and I searched every instance of the word dunamis in the New Testament and came to the inescapable (and important) conclusion that every Christian is given this power to live the Christian life by the enabling of the Holy Spirit. Upon that I summarily rejoiced at the revelation of that! This word study came after some major soul searching I did after a discussion with a Pentecostal friend of mine who believed in a "secondary conferrance of grace" by which a Christian receives the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" as a secondary experience later, and also that not every Christian experiences it.

I disagreed from the outset with him, but my sensitive conscience and tender heart would not allow intellectual pride or my own beliefs to push off carefully considering something that was so crucial to the Christian life and not seek out the truth of the matter. And in disturbed prayers and tears that night I prayed for God to reveal if I really had been Baptized in the Spirit or not, and if not why I had not received it(?). Because why would I not, at all costs, seek to reach a point where the fullness of the Spirit dwelt in me so that I could walk with greatest intimacy and communion with God if I was infact lacking the Baptism of the Spirit? That weekend led me on the search on that word dunamis (power), and culminated in the most amazing and life changing message that Sunday from a guest pastor (John Bevere) on sanctification and the power of the Spirit I had ever heard (I've never been the same since - no doubt divinely orchestrated).

I became so overcome by the conviction and assurance of the Holy Spirit in my life that at Church on Sunday I laid bent forehead to my knees only being able to barely audibly express an nearly inexpressable "Thank you" to God. That was when I realized I had indeed been Baptized in the Spirit and that it was only a matter of believing and surrender to God to unlock that power in my life. I believe the Baptism was always there from the moment of salvation but that it was the Filling of the Holy Spirit (as on that night) which brought it to the foreground in my life. I did not speak in tongues or any such other superficial "requirement" for demonstrating true Baptism in the Spirit: I simply was filled with the awe, wonder, and gratitude of having been revealed the power of God in me to live the Christian life that seemed so impossible to live before. It was the filling of the Spirit in me, and a filling which is to occur constantly and over and over in the Christian life (as happened many times in Acts). But the Baptism of the Spirit only occurs once, and I believe that to be at salvation when you believe.

That is my understanding of the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. And you can also read the paper I have written about the Purpose of Baptism which explains my understanding of this matter more in depth (and Scripturally) if you wish.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

If Adam received the Holy Spirit in him during creation...then did he lose it when he fell?

I'm a little iffy on the previous analogy about Adam and the spirit God gave to Him. I do not believe this can be interpreted as the Holy Spirit, but as the individual spirit each man and woman is given. Those who walk in wicked ways of unbelief certainly do not possess the Holy Spirit, and seeing how the unforgivable sin is to blaspheme the Spirit (essentially to irrevocably reject the Spirit's mandated work from the Father) we cannot see the Holy Spirit as being in every man and woman.

What did Jesus die on the cross to reconcile?

He came to reconcile us to God by abolishing the natural enmity in-born in us by sin through the flesh (Romans 8:7) and to put to death the flesh which was at enmity with God (Ephesians 2:14-16; Galatians 5:16-17). Thus in Romans 8 we are commanded to, by the Holy Spirit which we have been given, to put to death the deeds of the body (the flesh).

 

[cyberjosh]

While Jesus was alive, the disciples had confessed Him as Lord (John 13:13). But were the disciples saved at that point because they did not believe in the bodily resurrection of Christ (since Jesus had not yet died).

If one of the disciples had died during Jesus' ministry they still would have been saved by their faith in Christ, as with John the Baptist who probably never experienced the Baptism of the Spirit. Though on this side of the cross (in time) the Baptism of the Spirit seems synonymous to salvation God had already been doing a saving work in his people since the Old Testament, which was later manifested and revealed in Jesus. The Spirit had long been promised before Jesus had come in the flesh, since the time of Jeremiah, and Christ later reiterated to the disciples the assurance of their salvation and receiving the Spirit because they had remained with him throughout his ministry (Luke 22:28; John 14:26). And what was he doing other than reaffirming to them the Old Testament promise? Judas is of course an exception and Jesus early on identified Judas as a betrayer (John 6:70), which still boils down to original belief and a matter of the heart. Their salvation would have been secure by faith even during Jesus' ministry though.

At this point the disciples believed in the bodily resurrection of Christ, right? So..when the disciples were told to received the Holy Spirit on Resurrection Sunday..could it be they accepted salvation?

They certainly received something when Jesus breathed on them. Was it at that point that they were Baptized into the Spirit? I'm not sure, possibly not, but Pentecost was the full manifestation of the Spirit. Acts was a transitional period for the bestowal of the Spirit, so some confusion exists as to the order in which certain salvific events occur, but from the sum of all the accounts related it seems the most consistent to say that the Spirit is given upon saving belief in Jesus and that it is then that we are Baptized by the Spirit.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi Daynayee,

And the baptism of the Holy Spirit is when we recieve the Holy Spirit, i believe there is a difference between Christ living on our hearts and the Holy Spirit. With the baptism of the Holy Spirit we recieve the spiritual gifts, the power that christ had, and speaking in tongue, etc.

The only problem I have with conceptualizing it this way is that I see Christ entering our heart through (by means of) the Spirit, or at least inseparably from the Spirit. I believe it is the Spirit that baptizes us into Christ's death, because it is also through the Spirit that Christ offered up his own blood to begin with:

"How much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without blemish to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?" (Hebrews 9:14)

It is also through the Spirit, whom all believers receive, that we are given a down-payment or assurance of our salvation. I see the Spirit as the conduit through which all grace flows to the believer, such is the relationship in the Trinity toward the believer. Through the Spirit we may know the mind of God, through the Spirit we know of righteousness and judgment, through the Spirit we are to live by the power of Christ's blood to put to death the deeds of the flesh. Nothing in the Christian life can be done apart from the Spirit, yet the source of the power is from the Father who imputes to us Jesus's righteousness and hides our life in Christ. The relationships in the Trinity and the roles in relation to us are so complex I can't pretend to understand it all, but because I see the Baptism of the Spirit as essential (not optional) and as crucial to Christian identity I believe all believers have received the Baptism of the Spirit (1 Corinthians 12:13) but then need to have active faith in Christ to receive (and continue to receive) the power and filling of the Spirit in order to live the Christian life.

I am always open to discussing this, so I would love to hear your thoughts.

God Bless,

~Josh