Indwelling of the Holy Spirit

[Tofu]

I have a question about this, I haven't ever really seen clear Biblical teaching on when exactly this occurs in the life of the believer. Going to note here in the beginning: I'm going to be playing the advocate until I feel the question is adequately answered so that I can understand this with no doubt.

Most people I ask say that they believe it occurs at the moment of salvation. There is a couple of questions I have about this, which is of course going to lead into acts but before that I want to ask about the Old Testament saints.

Most people will say that you cannot truly be saved without the Holy Spirit, quoting a couple of verses, the two that I am thinking of is Romans 8:9 saying that those who do not have the spirit of Christ are none of his, also that we are sealed with the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13-14 which is our guarantee of our inheritance. When reading Ephesians I see that we are sealed, which is an external act, a stamp, symbol or mark (dictionary definition shortened) used to imprint something, so we can clearly be sealed without being indwelt. However when looking at Romans I see that we clearly need the Spirit, because without it we are none of Christs', who is the only way to the Father. Which leads me to ask about the Old Testament.

In John 8:56 Jesus says that Abraham rejoiced that he would see my (Jesus') day. He saw it and was glad (ESV Translation). So we see that Abraham received special revelation of Jesus and what he would do. Romans 4:3 says that Abraham's faith was counted to him as righteousness. So this tells me that Abraham had the exact same faith that we had in Jesus who was to come, however, the Holy Spirit had not been poured out as it was in Pentecost yet. So how was Abraham saved? For if he did not have the Holy Spirit (Spirit of Christ) he was none of his, which Jesus is the only way. That only leaves me a couple of options, which I don't have any scripture to back either up and if anyone knows any more about this that'd be great to hear about it, either Abraham had the Spirit of Christ while he was on earth when he received that special revelation and his faith was counted as righteousness (which I would attest that our faith is accounted to us as righteousness through Christ in the same way) and Pentecost is a second work / ministry of the Holy Spirit, or Abraham somehow received the Spirit after his death when Jesus died and free'd all the captives from Sheol.

The second question is just what happened in the life of believers in Acts? In Acts 2:1-4 we see that the apostles / believers were filled with the Holy Spirit and the promised power came, here in the form of speaking in tongues (languages) that were unknown to them and the sign of flaming tongues of fire resting on each one of them. Again in Acts 4:31 they prayed, the place that they were gathered together was shaken and they were again filled with the Holy Spirit (at least some of these were the same apostles that were in the upper room at Pentecost) and received boldness (power) to speak the word of God. In other various places we see the pouring out of the Spirit to other believers, mainly I want to point to Acts 8:12, we see that Philip has a group of people who believed and were baptized, then in verses 14-17 we see that the apostles heard of this and sent Peter and John, who came down to pray that they might receive the Holy Spirit, for he had not yet fallen on any of them, but they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. So note here, Acts says that they believed and were water baptized in verse 12, and verses 14-16 note that someone came to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit for he hadn't fallen on anyone yet. So if they believe and in obedience were baptized I think its safe to say they were saved, yet the Holy Spirit hasn't fallen on them, and we see in verse 17 they received the Holy Spirit. So that also raises questions in my mind as to the nature of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and when that happens in the life of the believer or if the Holy Spirit does multiple acts in the life of the believer. Does he indwell you, then proceeds to fill you as you surrender to him? I don't know, hoping someone might have some insight?

 

[Webers_Home]

.

we are sealed with the Holy Spirit in Ephesians 1:13-14 which is our guarantee of our inheritance. When reading Ephesians I see that we are sealed, which is an external act, a stamp, symbol or mark (dictionary definition shortened) used to imprint something, so we can clearly be sealed without being indwelt.

Upon strict examination of the grammar and syntax of Eph 1:13-14, it's readily apparent that the Lord's people aren't sealed "by" the Spirit, but rather "with" the Spirit. In other words: the Spirit himself is the seal; rather than some sort of indelible marking like a tattoo or a bar code.

†. Eph 1:13-14 . . In him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance

The koiné Greek word for "guarantee" is arrhabon (ar-hrab-ohn') which isn't a marking but rather; a pledge; viz: part of the purchase-money or property given in advance as security for the balance. As a home owner, I know exactly what arrhabon means and just how legally it obligates God to protect me from His own wrath.

Note: In some states, the arrhabon is called a good faith deposit.

For those of you who have yet to buy a home of your own, good faith money works like this: when the contract, and all other necessary documents are submitted to Escrow, the buyer is required to also submit a token amount of the purchase price. It's usually a relatively small number of dollars compared to the full price of the property. I think ours was just $1,000 back in 1988 on a $74,000 home. When the buyer follows through on their consent to purchase the property, the good faith deposit, minus some Escrow fees of course, goes towards the purchase. However, if the buyer decides to renege, then they forfeit the good faith deposit. I'm sure that's done to discourage half-hearted buyers from screwing around with other people's time and money.

So then, since God's Spirit himself is the good faith deposit in Eph 1:13-14; then, according to the principles underlying those kinds of pledges, should God renege on His promise to spare people who hear and believe the gospel, then He has to forfeit the Spirit, and the believer gets to keep Him regardless of their eternal destiny.

Cliff
/

 

[Tofu]

Sorry if I wasn't clear, I understand that we are sealed with the Spirit, I was trying to say that the Spirit itself is the seal, not necessarily it leaves a mark and then goes on its way, I was trying to express from my understanding that a seal, while that seal is the Spirit itself, is still an external thing, a mark placed upon the believer as their guarantee.

 

[for_his_glory]

We are indwelled by the Holy Spirit the first time we believe through faith as Abraham was also indwelled by that very Spirit which is God. I also have a class I wrote on the Holt Spirit that might help answer your questions. Address is at the bottom of this post. Here are some scriptures you can study.

Through faith:
Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ,
Eph 3:15 Of whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,
Eph 3:16 That he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, to be strengthened with might by his Spirit in the inner man;
Eph 3:17 That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
Eph 3:18 May be able to comprehend with all saints what is the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Mystery:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

Every believer:
Rom 8:8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.

 

[Sparkey]

Acts says that they believed and were water baptized in verse 12, and verses 14-16 note that someone came to pray for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit for he hadn't fallen on anyone yet. So if they believe and in obedience were baptized I think its safe to say they were saved, yet the Holy Spirit hasn't fallen on them, and we see in verse 17 they received the Holy Spirit. So that also raises questions in my mind as to the nature of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and when that happens in the life of the believer or if the Holy Spirit does multiple acts in the life of the believer. Does he indwell you, then proceeds to fill you as you surrender to him? I don't know, hoping someone might have some insight?

Here are some scriptures that I've posted in another thread:

Now recall (Mat 3:11 KJV) - "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:"


(Luk 11:13 KJV) - "If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?"


(Luk 24:49 KJV) - "And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high."


(Jhn 7:38-39 KJV) - "He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)"


(Jhn 14:26 KJV) - "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you."


è The Holy Spirit is “the Comforter†(John 14:16; 15:26; 16:7)
(Jhn 16:7 KJV) - "Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you."

I'll leave it to you to search it out and won't try to draw conclusions myself here.

Other posts from the same series can be found here:
http://www.christianforums.net/showthread.php?t=40717&p=611665&viewfull=1#post611665

 

[Tofu]

FHG:

The passage in Ephesians does indeed tell us the means that we are indwelt, by faith, which is the same way we received salvation but does not imply that every believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit upon conversion.

I don't understand how the mystery passage applies here, I'm pretty sure that is referring to the Gospel which was hidden from men until Jesus came and revealed it.

The passage in Romans is about the only passage that gives me any ponder. Romans 8:9 speaks of the spirit of Christ, which I don't think means the Holy Spirit. They had the words for Holy Spirit, its used all over the New Testament and makes no sense that Paul should choose in this one spot to use the phrase spirit of Christ if he wanted to convey the Holy Spirit. (this is also the only passage that I know of that uses that phrase.) My understanding of what the spirit of Christ is is when we are spiritually reborn we now have his spirit. We are born of the spirit, just as we are born physically, so that example that Jesus used tells me that we have gained a spirit that is our everlasting life in Christ. That same spirit that is of Christ, because Christ is the one who made the way and gave us this new spiritual life, is the same one that is referred to in Romans 8:11 that will raise us up from the dead. I do not want to imply in any way that this spirit is "ours" as a personal possession (and subsequently our power raising us) any more than our bodies are, they are all gifts from God, our very existence is, and it will return to God upon our death and be with him forever, forever with Christ in the marriage of Christ and the Church (which is what marriage is a forerunner to help us understand what that is going to be like, in our understanding its two flesh becoming one, this is Christ and us becoming one in that likeness). I will admit that I am not 100% satisfied with that answer yet, I will be seeking out more information on these verses but it does in my mind seem more compatible with the rest of scripture than replacing the spirit of Christ with the Holy Spirit. I want to be more firm in my understanding of that and will be seeking out the various people in my life (and considering input over this) that I respect as mature Christians and students of God's word.

The reason that I say that is more in line (compatible) with scripture is because nowhere in scripture does it say Abraham was indwelt with the Holy Spirit, in fact it teaches against such a thing, because Jesus is the baptizer in regards to the Holy Spirit, John referred to it as something that has not happened yet, nor did it happen until Jesus ascended. John 7:38-39 testifies that the Holy Spirit had not yet been given. And it is a fact that God accounted Abraham as righteous because of his faith, so there is no doubt in my mind that he was saved, but did not have the Holy Spirit. I point back to Acts 8:12-17 where we have people who have believed in Jesus, have been water baptized, but the Holy Spirit has not fallen upon any of them. Saved believers professing faith in Christ and in obedience water baptized, but without the Holy Spirit.

As for the passages out of John and Luke, it does identify that Jesus is the giver / sender / baptizer, however it doesn't say when it happens in the life of believers nor if every believer will receive him. Why would Jesus say that the Father will give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him if it happens automatically at the point of salvation? Those are the conclusions that I am coming to. Not that there are some believers who can't receive the Holy Spirit, merely that we haven't been teaching scripture properly and no one seeks after the Holy Spirit like they should, because its taught that everyone has the Holy Spirit automatically and its a required occurance in the life of the believer for salvation, so to say to the contrary would be questioning someones salvation and unthinkable. (and condemning the old testament saints at the same time.)

 

[JMJ]

It is my understanding that a person becomes born again when the Holy Spirit removes the darkness of Adam's sin on the soul and leaves His own mark in its place. He personally takes up residence within the soul/heart of the person He has sanctified. These events happen simultaneously.

For many people, this sanctifying event is known as the sacrament of Baptism. This baptism is a washing of water by the word and the person is now born of water and the Spirit also known as being born again.


For others people, this sanctifying event is understood to be when a person accepts Jesus as his Lord and Savior.

It is the indwelling Holy Spirit who sanctifies us and who keeps us sanctified. His presence within our souls/hearts is our only guarantee of eternal life. IF we defile our temples with spiritually deadly sins, the Holy Spirit no longer resides within our souls/hearts and He will destroy/condemn us to hell if we die in this graceless state.

When we die, God will not know us if He is not still abiding/living within our souls/hearts.

 

[for_his_glory]

Tofu: I don't understand how the mystery passage applies here, I'm pretty sure that is referring to the Gospel which was hidden from men until Jesus came and revealed it.
Mystery:
Col 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

The Holy Spirit (Gods Spirit) or even Jesus (Gods Spirit) was a mystery to the Gentiles as they never heard of such until the day of Pentecost when Jesus gave the commission of Matthew 28:18-20 to the Disciples and only when Jesus ascended was the Holy Spirit (Gods Spirit) ushered down and indwelled the Disciples and opened their Spiritual eyes and ears to bring them into all truths so they could take the words of Jesus out to the world in all truths. It is only by faith that we believe and accept Christ as our personal Lord and Savior through repentance that after that we then receive the Holy Spirit, but many are not taught this so they do not recognize that Spirit of God (Holy Spirit) that is already in them until they learn what the Holy Spirit is in them.

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.
Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.
Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

The Spirit of Christ is the same Spirit that is called Holy Spirit as God is Spirit and all are of Gods Spirit (trinity) so in a sense you could almost say it is Gods Spirit that indwells us and opens our Spiritual eyes and ears for understanding. Hope this is clearer to you.

 

[Tofu]

Ugh I got to edit this out, my spirit is wrestling with me because I know God told me not to go further on this but seek him about this, because I'm not continuing this in Christian fellowship and know that I am getting out of line personally and stumbling, because its not about me being right. Its all about God and for his glory, not about me.

 

[Elijah674]

OK: Here is the way that 'i' believe it.

Adam was created 'VERY GOOD' He & she were naked but COVERED WITH THE RIGHTOUSNESS GARMENT OF CHRIST. They did not need to be Born Again until they Lost Christ's Garment of Rightousness. And then this ETERNAL REQUIRED CONDITION was a FIRST ETERNAL GOSPEL REQUIREMENT. John 3:3-8

NOW: How does Adam + Eve & [[All fallen *Mankind]] be Born Again?? That seems to be the bottom/line question?
First: We must be Born Again to be saved.
Next: We have got to have the Holy Spirit again with/in us.
In Acts 5:32 we find that it is only possible to have the Holy Spirit (Holy Ghost) [IN US] one way! [[PAY ATTENTION!]] His Inspiration says...

[32] And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, [[whom God hath given to them that obey him]].

God created us, we are His creation! We dis/obeyed and are eternally lost. So He gives us this Eternal Plan (Rev. 14:6) for a way back. It is for us to meet the condition's of His plan. All provisions have been freely supplied! Phil. 4:13 + 2 Cor. 12:9. He wants for us to become MATURE to be Eternally safe to save. (Nah. 1:9)

And as was Adam before sin, we are Rom. 8:1 'without condemnation while IN Christ Jesus'. When & only when we yield our 'will' to be Rom. 8:14 [[LED]] of the Holy Ghost.

OK: That is enough!;) Let me just close out that [[[THIS IS ONLY THE STARTING POINT]]] of being brought back to where Adam started as an PERFECT, but in/mature 'babe'! Heb. 5

--Elijah