Infant Baptism and the Bible: Should Babies Be Baptized?

[whitney]

Some denominations baptize babies, but other groups teach that baptism is only for those who are old enough to make a personal choice based on their own faith and repentance. Does the Bible authorize infant baptism or does it teach personal responsibility and individual accountability? Are infants born guilty of original sin and inherited depravity? What does the gospel of Jesus Christ teach?

Very thorough Alabaster! Good job! Everything you provided is Bibical - unbelievable people continue arguing?!?

 

[Alabaster]

Very thorough Alabaster! Good job! Everything you provided is Bibical - unbelievable people continue arguing?!?

I know, my dear. I can be disheartening, but we press on in the power of Jesus' name.

 

[Scotth1960]

I know, my dear. I can be disheartening, but we press on in the power of Jesus' name.

Dear Alabaster, I guess it doesn't matter to some people that the early church baptized babies. They just try to event the wheel all over again in every generation, and come to the Bible looking for whatever doctrine they want to find in it. If it doesn't fit there preconceptions, they just say that infant baptism is "unbiblical", no matter that the visible church has been baptizing infants for 2,000 years. Let me ask you this: Do you believe in a future, secret coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds, 7 years before the second coming of Jesus Christ in glory? Do you believe in the pretribulation rapture. You may think that infant baptism is not biblical. Do you think the pretribulation rapture is biblical? If you do, you forget how Jesus Christ Himself prays. If Christ wanted to take His Church out of the world, He would have prayed so in John 17:15. He merely promised to keep them from the evil one in times of tribulation to come. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, I guess it doesn't matter to some people that the early church baptized babies.

The first churches didn't, and we still don't.

They just try to event the wheel all over again in every generation, and come to the Bible looking for whatever doctrine they want to find in it.

Like you do? It ain't in there.

If it doesn't fit there preconceptions, they just say that infant baptism is "unbiblical", no matter that the visible church has been baptizing infants for 2,000 years.

It isn't biblical. What you think the churches have been doing is really against God. Besides, it has not been going on for 2000 years--that is a lie.

Let me ask you this: Do you believe in a future, secret coming of Jesus Christ in the clouds, 7 years before the second coming of Jesus Christ in glory?

Secret? No. Coming? No.

Do you believe in the pretribulation rapture. You may think that infant baptism is not biblical. Do you think the pretribulation rapture is biblical? If you do, you forget how Jesus Christ Himself prays. If Christ wanted to take His Church out of the world, He would have prayed so in John 17:15. He merely promised to keep them from the evil one in times of tribulation to come. In Erie PA Scott Harrington

Everything I believe is supported by scripture, whereas many things you have chosen to believe is merely supported by the chosen church you belong to. Dangerous.



PS: There is a diffrerence between tribulations we all face in our lives and THE TRIBULATION which is to come that the world has never experienced before and will never experience again, according to Jesus.

 

[Scotth1960]

The first churches didn't, and we still don't.



Like you do? It ain't in there.



It isn't biblical. What you think the churches have been doing is really against God. Besides, it has not been going on for 2000 years--that is a lie.



Secret? No. Coming? No.



Everything I believe is supported by scripture, whereas many things you have chosen to believe is merely supported by the chosen church you belong to. Dangerous.



PS: There is a diffrerence between tribulations we all face in our lives and THE TRIBULATION which is to come that the world has never experienced before and will never experience again, according to Jesus.

Dear Alabaster, as from your many posts, not everything you say comes "directly" from Scripture. You read some things into it. Where do you read, anywhere in Scripture, "the children of Joseph and Mary"? It's an assumption you haven't justified from Scripture. If Mary is the Mother of God, she is the Mother of God only. Where does it say she is "the mother of other children". You also have failed to explain why Mary would have been taken care of by Saint John if she had other children of her own. These children would have taken care of their mother, Mary of Nazareth, if they existed. You have not proven your case.
Your interpretation is based on a new tradition that began sometime recently. Ignoring church history, you just come to the Bible alone by yourself for how to interpret it. Inventing the wheel anew every generation, regardless of the consequences or violation of Christ's prayer for Christian unity (John 17).
Any one of us can believe in false doctrine. I once believed what Hal Lindsey said. (About the coming "rapture" before a tribulation of "Antichrist"). Then I read the Bible more extensively, and I read it the way the Church had always read it. The Church Fathers always taught there would be tribulations in this world, and that the Church will not be removed from the earth prior to the second coming. In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[A-Christian]

Where is "age of reason" refered to in the New Testament?


Does the New Testament say that entire households were baptized?


Is faith in Christ necessary for salvation?

 

[whitney]

Jasoncran, The argument cuts both ways. You can't be everywhere, and know that all the Orthodox churches do not believe and teach the same thing. Where there is heresy, they are excommunicated from the church. Then they are not Orthodox. We in the west, including me, are not Orthodox. For years I said "and the Son" and I did not know better. Then God showed me John 15:26 through an Orthodox Christian. I am not an expert on everything the Orthodox believe, but everything I read from them they all believe exactly the same thing. It is not impossible to believe that; if any Church has the Holy Spirit, then they will all believe the same doctrine, because the Holy Spirit teaches no false doctrine. In Erie PA Scott H.

Except, you forgot the part about how God never changes His truth, yet the Catholic Church changes theirs......doesn't sound like an agreement with the Holy Spirit, does it?

 

[Scotth1960]

Except, you forgot the part about how God never changes His truth, yet the Catholic Church changes theirs......doesn't sound like an agreement with the Holy Spirit, does it?

Dear whitney, God never changes His truth (John 16:13). The Orthodox Church never changed the truth that the Holy Spirit proceeds from "the Father" (JOHN 15:26). Study this controversy carefully from Church History. You will find the Eastern Orthodox Church confessed THE TRUTH. The Catholic Church of Rome, the Church which calls "itself" "Catholic" forgets what the Orthodox Catholic Church, the Eastern Church, teaches. The popes of Rome since 1014 AD all say "And the Son" (FILIOQUE IN LATIN). This in defiance of the practice of Pope St. Leo III of Rome (795-816 AD), who forbad the Filioque. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[A-Christian]

This in defiance of the practice of Pope St. Leo III of Rome (795-816 AD), who forbad the Filioque.

Funny, I thought councils were the deciders of such things.

 

[A-Christian]

Answers anyone?

Where is "age of reason" refered to in the New Testament?


Does the New Testament say that entire households were baptized?


Is faith in Christ necessary for salvation?

 

[whitney]

Dear whitney, God never changes His truth (John 16:13). The Orthodox Church never changed the truth that the Holy Spirit proceeds from "the Father" (JOHN 15:26). Study this controversy carefully from Church History. You will find the Eastern Orthodox Church confessed THE TRUTH. The Catholic Church of Rome, the Church which calls "itself" "Catholic" forgets what the Orthodox Catholic Church, the Eastern Church, teaches. The popes of Rome since 1014 AD all say "And the Son" (FILIOQUE IN LATIN). This in defiance of the practice of Pope St. Leo III of Rome (795-816 AD), who forbad the Filioque. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

Scott,
We need to define what Church is. It is not a building, the Holy Spirit does not dwell in a Church building as you mentioned in an earlier post. The Church, there is only one, is the Body of Christ, it is made up of believers, the Holy Spirit dwells in their bodies, which is His Body. The Church does not call itself Catholic, the Church calls herself the Body of Christ, Catholic does not exist in the Word. Pope is not in the Word either, there are no popes in the Word. These are man made words.
The Bible is God's Word and anything used outside of His Word is worthless because all you need to know to be the Body of Christ (the Church), is in His Word.

 

[whitney]

Answers anyone?

Where is "age of reason" refered to in the New Testament?


Does the New Testament say that entire households were baptized?


Is faith in Christ necessary for salvation?

The age of reason is when the person understands why they are being baptized and what it means.

The households being baptized in the NT, says that the entire household "believed", so the entire households must have been at an age where they were capable of believing.

Faith in Christ is a necessity. If you read the first 3 or 4 OP's, Alabaster gives very good details.

God Bless!

 

[Scotth1960]

Funny, I thought councils were the deciders of such things.

Dear A Christian. Yes councils are the final word for Christians to decide the teaching of the Scriptures and refute heresies. But when a pope of Rome is Orthodox, he should be listened to. He was still in the Orthodox Church until 1014 AD. The popes of Rome left Orthodoxy behind by saying "FILIOQUE". The Catholic Church was always orthodox in doctrine. So the Catholic Church of the East just began calling itself the Orthodox Church. The Catholic Church of the West began calling itself the Catholic Church. It claimed Rome alone was universal. Catholic. The East claimed that Rome was no longer Orthodox. The Orthodox Church is still the Catholic Church. The early Church did not have one leader who was considered unquestionable over the whole church of the apostles. St. Peter was a leader, nothing more. Not the final word. The Holy Spirit gave the final word in Acts 15 through all of the apostles in Christ together, including James and Peter and John, Andrew, etc. In Erie Scott Harrington

 

[A-Christian]

The Church does not call itself Catholic, the Church calls herself the Body of Christ, Catholic does not exist in the Word. Pope is not in the Word either, there are no popes in the Word. These are man made words.
The Bible is God's Word and anything used outside of His Word is worthless because all you need to know to be the Body of Christ (the Church), is in His Word.

Whitney, with all due respect, should Christians like yourself, just forget that Catholic councils decided what books would be in the New Testament that you possess, and that a Catholic pope degreed the decisions of the Catholic councils to be correct, making your New Testament official. You would not even have "His Word", if not for the Catholic Church.

 

[Scotth1960]

Whitney, with all due respect, should Christians like yourself, just forget that Catholic councils decided what books would be in the New Testament that you possess, and that a Catholic pope degreed the decisions of the Catholic councils to be correct, making your New Testament official. You would not even have "His Word", if not for the Catholic Church.

Dear A Christian, Blessed Saint Peter was nothing at all in character, conduct, or teaching like some of the popes of Rome. Some of the popes were saints, and some were not. Only the ones who follow the Faith of Saint Peter can be rightly said to be succeeders to St. Peter. "Without faith it is impossible to please God", and some popes created crusades and schisms and inquisitions and burning protestants at the stake. These kinds of things SAINT PETER DID NOT DO. In Erie PA Scott R. Harrington

 

[whitney]

Whitney, with all due respect, should Christians like yourself, just forget that Catholic councils decided what books would be in the New Testament that you possess, and that a Catholic pope degreed the decisions of the Catholic councils to be correct, making your New Testament official. You would not even have "His Word", if not for the Catholic Church.

None of us would have His Word of it wasn't for Him. He was the one who decided which books would be in the Bible, people might think it was them, but do you really believe God would leave it up to men to chose His Book?

 

[A-Christian]

Dear A Christian. Yes councils are the final word for Christians to decide the teaching of the Scriptures and refute heresies. But when a pope of Rome is Orthodox, he should be listened to. He was still in the Orthodox Church until 1014 AD. The popes of Rome left Orthodoxy behind by saying "FILIOQUE". The Catholic Church was always orthodox in doctrine. So the Catholic Church of the East just began calling itself the Orthodox Church. The Catholic Church of the West began calling itself the Catholic Church. It claimed Rome alone was universal. Catholic. The East claimed that Rome was no longer Orthodox. The Orthodox Church is still the Catholic Church. The early Church did not have one leader who was considered unquestionable over the whole church of the apostles. St. Peter was a leader, nothing more. Not the final word. The Holy Spirit gave the final word in Acts 15 through all of the apostles in Christ together, including James and Peter and John, Andrew, etc. In Erie Scott Harrington

Wow, that's some twisted history brother, but I'm glad you acknowledged that councils are the ones that authoritively interpret with the guidance of the Holy Spirit or course, the teachings of the Church.

Buy the way, the Catholic Church was calling itself the Catholic Church long before 1014 friend. See below:

Ignatius of Antioch
"Let no one do anything of concern to the Church without the bishop. Let that be considered a valid Eucharist which is celebrated by the bishop or by one whom he ordains [i.e., a presbyter]. Wherever the bishop appears, let the people be there; just as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church" (Letter to the Smyrneans 8:2 [A.D. 110]).


The Martyrdom of Polycarp
"And of the elect, he was one indeed, the wonderful martyr Polycarp, who in our days was an apostolic and prophetic teacher, bishop of the Catholic Church in Smyrna. For every word which came forth from his mouth was fulfilled and will be fulfilled" (Martyrdom of Polycarp 16:2 [A.D. 155]).


The Muratorian Canon
"Besides these [letters of Paul] there is one to Philemon, and one to Titus, and two to Timothy, in affection and love, but nevertheless regarded as holy in the Catholic Church, in the ordering of churchly discipline. There is also one [letter] to the Laodiceans and another to the Alexandrians, forged under the name of Paul, in regard to the heresy of Marcion, and there are several others which cannot be received by the Church, for it is not suitable that gall be mixed with honey. The epistle of Jude, indeed, and the two ascribed to John are received by the Catholic Church (Muratorian fragment [A.D. 177]).


Tertullian
"Where was [the heretic] Marcion, that shipmaster of Pontus, the zealous student of Stoicism? Where was Valentinus, the disciple of Platonism? For it is evident that those men lived not so long ago—in the reign of Antonius for the most part—and that they at first were believers in the doctrine of the Catholic Church, in the church of Rome under the episcopate of the blessed Eleutherius, until on account of their ever restless curiosity, with which they even infected the brethren, they were more than once expelled" (Demurrer Against the Heretics 30 [A.D. 200]).

 

[A-Christian]

None of us would have His Word of it wasn't for Him. He was the one who decided which books would be in the Bible, people might think it was them, but do you really believe God would leave it up to men to chose His Book?

He worked through His Church Whitney. Do you, Whitney, acknowledge that Catholic councils decided which books would be in the New Testament? Do you Whitney, acknowledge that a Catholic pope decreed that your New Testament, debated and decided upon by Catholic councils, was indeed the Word of God? Let's not dance around this fact Whitney. Let's not try to sweep this under the rug. You are going to have to face this fact. If you deny this, you lose credibility and you should not want that.

 

[Alabaster]

Dear Alabaster, as from your many posts, not everything you say comes "directly" from Scripture. You read some things into it. Where do you read, anywhere in Scripture, "the children of Joseph and Mary"? It's an assumption you haven't justified from Scripture.

Mary came to Him at the synagogue with his brothers. James says he himself is Jesus' brother. BLOOD relations. Scriptural.

If Mary is the Mother of God, she is the Mother of God only.

Point being: She isn't.

Where does it say she is "the mother of other children". You also have failed to explain why Mary would have been taken care of by Saint John if she had other children of her own.

These children would have taken care of their mother, Mary of Nazareth, if they existed. You have not proven your case.

Jesus held John close--His beloved disciple. His family was not part of his entourage, for they misunderstood Him. Mary knew her son. He left her in John's care because it was the BEST THING FOR HER.

Your interpretation is based on a new tradition that began sometime recently. Ignoring church history, you just come to the Bible alone by yourself for how to interpret it. Inventing the wheel anew every generation, regardless of the consequences or violation of Christ's prayer for Christian unity (John 17).
Any one of us can believe in false doctrine. I once believed what Hal Lindsey said. (About the coming "rapture" before a tribulation of "Antichrist"). Then I read the Bible more extensively, and I read it the way the Church had always read it. The Church Fathers always taught there would be tribulations in this world, and that the Church will not be removed from the earth prior to the second coming. In Erie Scott Harrington

Holy Spirit's age-old job is to elucidate scripture to us. He does that fine, but does it successfully when we are OPEN to His voice and not closed in and hemmed in by religious institutional indoctrination.

You don't have the monopoly on Truth by virtue of some church group.

 

[Alabaster]

He worked through His Church Whitney. Do you, Whitney, acknowledge that Catholic councils decided which books would be in the New Testament? Do you Whitney, acknowledge that a Catholic pope decreed that your New Testament, debated and decided upon by Catholic councils, was indeed the Word of God? Let's not dance around this fact Whitney. Let's not try to sweep this under the rug. You are going to have to face this fact. If you deny this, you lose credibility and you should not want that.

It matters not who did these things, because in reality it was ONLY God. He could have used a bunch of chimpanzees.