Infant Baptism Is Just As Valid As Adult Baptism

[Alabaster]

LOL the people who do not understand baptism, is at the right place. They should not get baptized. They MUST stay out of the water. This is going on forever and it will not convince anybody.

Leave those who believe in infant baptism, because they have not yet come to the correct understanding and do not know what baptism is about, neither do they want to know. They WANT to believe in infant baptism so they will not change even if the Lord Himself explained it (which He does in the Bible)

C

I know only too well, how right you are!

 

[Drew]

Paul teaches that baptism is for those who have made a clear call for Christ.

Where in the scriptures does Paul in any sense restrict baptism to those who have made a clear call for Christ? Surely not in the instruction "repent and be baptized". Consider the heath instruction: get vaccinated against measles and do not have unprotected sex. Imagine the silliness of some parent thinking as follows: "well since my child cannot have unprotected sex till he is older, he should not be vaccinated now against measles as an infant".

The instruction is to the understanding mind--not to babies, who have no understanding.[/b]

You simply assume this - we have seen no argument that the person getting baptized needs to understand what is going on. I know that you think "repent and be baptized" implies this because one cannot repent as an infant. But I have just shown that the fact one cannot have unprotected sex as an infant does not mean one should not be vaccinated against measles as an infant.

Remember, God is at work in baptism.

 

[Drew]

Is there an instruction to be baptized as a sinner, then baptized as a believer later?

Paul obviously sees baptism as an event where the sinful Adamic nature is put to death:

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death

Now there really should be no doubt - baptism is an act that effects the transition from the old nature - put to death in baptism as Paul clearly says - to the new nature. So, yes, baptism is something that takes place at the "transition point" where the Adamic nature is put to death and the new nature put on.

If you have baptism after repentence, you are saying that we "die" after we repent.

Now it is my turn to say "Come on!""

 

[Drew]

I know MANY unbelievers who have been baptized as babies--they were brought up believing they were therefore saved--if that isn't mental assent with no heart involvement, then what is it? These people are Catholic. It's a false doctrine and it does great harm.

Did I ever say that baptism saves? I have never said such a thing. So that misunderstanding is another issue.

 

[Drew]

Leave those who believe in infant baptism, because they have not yet come to the correct understanding and do not know what baptism is about, neither do they want to know. They WANT to believe in infant baptism so they will not change even if the Lord Himself explained it (which He does in the Bible)

Begging the question. Perhaps you can engage the actual scriptural discussions. The above amounts to an "I'm right and you're wrong" declaration. Fine - now please substantiate.

 

[Cornelius]

Leave those who believe in infant baptism, because they have not yet come to the correct understanding and do not know what baptism is about, neither do they want to know. They WANT to believe in infant baptism so they will not change even if the Lord Himself explained it (which He does in the Bible)

Begging the question. Perhaps you can engage the actual scriptural discussions. The above amounts to an "I'm right and you're wrong" declaration. Fine - now please substantiate.

LOL done that and then I gave up. You will stay dry my friend, no matter what the Bible tells you to do, because in your heart, that is what you want to do.

C

 

[Drew]

LOL done that and then I gave up. You will stay dry my friend, no matter what the Bible tells you to do, because in your heart, that is what you want to do.

When, and please identify the specific posts or posts, have you ever engaged my Romans 5 to 8 argument?

 

[Alabaster]

Paul teaches that baptism is for those who have made a clear call for Christ.

Where in the scriptures does Paul in any sense restrict baptism to those who have made a clear call for Christ? Surely not in the instruction "repent and be baptized". Consider the heath instruction: get vaccinated against measles and do not have unprotected sex. Imagine the silliness of some parent thinking as follows: "well since my child cannot have unprotected sex till he is older, he should not be vaccinated now against measles as an infant".

Nonsensical.

 

[Alabaster]

You simply assume this - we have seen no argument that the person getting baptized needs to understand what is going on. I know that you think "repent and be baptized" implies this because one cannot repent as an infant. But I have just shown that the fact one cannot have unprotected sex as an infant does not mean one should not be vaccinated against measles as an infant.

Remember, God is at work in baptism.

Doubly nonsensical.

 

[Alabaster]

Is there an instruction to be baptized as a sinner, then baptized as a believer later?

Paul obviously sees baptism as an event where the sinful Adamic nature is put to death:

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death

Now there really should be no doubt - baptism is an act that effects the transition from the old nature - put to death in baptism as Paul clearly says - to the new nature. So, yes, baptism is something that takes place at the "transition point" where the Adamic nature is put to death and the new nature put on.

If you have baptism after repentence, you are saying that we "die" after we repent.

Now it is my turn to say "Come on!""

We IDENTIFY with Jesus' death and resurrection in baptism---as an act of the will in obedience. Babies cannot do that--you only get them wet.

Come on, now.

 

[Drew]

Doubly nonsensical.

It is hard to have a serious discussion when my points are simply declared nonsensical. If I have posted something that is incorrect, it should be a simply matter for you to show the other readers exactly where my error lies. So, please do so.

 

[Drew]

We IDENTIFY with Jesus' death and resurrection in baptism---as an act of the will in obedience. Babies cannot do that--you only get them wet.

Come on, now.

You ignore the main point - Paul clearly represents baptism as being, in some sense, our death.

Now I, along with perhaps other posters, are interested in knowing how it is sensible that the repentent Christian - the new creation - be put to death.

Explain that and I will be indeed be impressed.

 

[Alabaster]

Doubly nonsensical.

It is hard to have a serious discussion when my points are simply declared nonsensical. If I have posted something that is incorrect, it should be a simply matter for you to show the other readers exactly where my error lies. So, please do so.

Babies can't read the Word of God, and therefore cannot be instructed in baptism. Therefore your argument doesn't "hold water" (no pun intended!).

We are to be cognitive of what we are choosing to do to obey God.

 

[Alabaster]

We IDENTIFY with Jesus' death and resurrection in baptism---as an act of the will in obedience. Babies cannot do that--you only get them wet.

Come on, now.

You ignore the main point - Paul clearly represents baptism as being, in some sense, our death.

Now I, along with perhaps other posters, are interested in knowing how it is sensible that the repentent Christian - the new creation - be put to death.

Explain that and I will be indeed be impressed.

Be impressed yourself with the Scriptures that teach us it is an identification with Jesus' death and resurrection. Dead to sin--alive in Christ--the divine exchange.

 

[Drew]

Alabaster - you are not answering my question.

Paul sees baptism as a death of the old self and an emergence of the new creation out the other side. You clearly believe that repentence comes before baptism. Paul shows us in Romans 8 that the old nature cannot follow God. So surely you agree that the person who is repenting has left the old nature behind and put on the new nature.

Now, I will repeat my question:

"How it is sensible that the repentent Christian - the new creation - be put to death.

 

[Drew]

Alabaster, here is the problem with the position I understand you as holding:

1. I believe that you hold that we are to be baptised as an act of obedience after we have come to belief and have repented.

2. But presumably, any person who has believed and repented is now a new creation - if any man is in Christ, he is a new creation.

3. But Paul declares baptism to entail a dying - a passing down into death.

4. So it appears that, if you are correct, we are putting our newly created selves to death as we descend into baptism.

Do you not see the problem with this?

 

[Alabaster]

Alabaster - you are not answering my question.

Paul sees baptism as a death of the old self and an emergence of the new creation out the other side. You clearly believe that repentence comes before baptism. Paul shows us in Romans 8 that the old nature cannot follow God. So surely you agree that the person who is repenting has left the old nature behind and put on the new nature.

Now, I will repeat my question:

"How it is sensible that the repentent Christian - the new creation - be put to death.

New believers come to faith, and when they receive Christ, the are informed of Baptism--it is something that has to be taught. Unbelievers couldn't care less. It is the new nature that desires to pleasse God and walk in obedience. They are ALREADY NEW--ALREADY walking in their new life!

The way you believe, it's for sinners! It isn't.

Baptism by water is all about LIFE.

 

[Alabaster]

Romans 6:11
So you also should consider yourselves to be dead to the power of sin and alive to God through Christ Jesus.

 

[Drew]

It is the new nature that desires to pleasse God and walk in obedience. They are ALREADY NEW--ALREADY walking in their new life! [/b]

I agree. But you still ignore what Paul is plainly saying about baptism - it involves our death. And this is why your position cannot be reconciled with what Paul is saying.

You say that baptism is done while we are in the new nature. But what does Paul say about baptism?

4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death

Your position cannot work. You have the new nature being put to death. And clearly that cannot be correct.

 

[Drew]

Baptism by water is all about LIFE. [/b]

No.

It is emphatically not all about life. It is partly about life, but early in Romans 6, Paul says that it is certainly also about death:

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death