Infant Baptism Is Just As Valid As Adult Baptism

[Drew]

Alabaster, please answer the following questions:

1. Is Paul talking about baptism in the following text?

2. Does he describe baptism as an event that brings about death?

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death

 

[Alabaster]

It is the new nature that desires to pleasse God and walk in obedience. They are ALREADY NEW--ALREADY walking in their new life! [/b]

I agree. But you still ignore what Paul is plainly saying about baptism - it involves our death. And this is why your position cannot be reconciled with what Paul is saying.

You say that baptism is done while we are in the new nature. But what does Paul say about baptism?

4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death

Your position cannot work. You have the new nature being put to death. And clearly that cannot be correct.

My position is what the Bible teaches--it works.

You are going against the grain. Do you not understand the concept of SYMBOLISM?

 

[Alabaster]

Baptism by water is all about LIFE. [/b]

No.

It is emphatically not all about life. It is partly about life, but early in Romans 6, Paul says that it is certainly also about death:

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death

Paul pays equal attention to the aspect of new life in baptism. You are conveniently overlooking it.

 

[Drew]

My position is what the Bible teaches--it works.

You are going against the grain. Do you not understand the concept of SYMBOLISM?

Obviously I understand the concept of sympolism.

You appear to think that Paul is not talking about water baptism in Romans 6. Well, if he is not talking literally, he is grossly incompetent as a writer.

1. We know that there is this activity called baptism where people are literally immersed in water.

2. Here in Romans 6, Paul uses the term "baptism" to denote an event that entails the old self dying, being put to death with Christ.

3. Paul also believes in real literal baptism. And if you are right, he believes it should be done after we have entered new life - after we have become new creations.

4. Paul then does not know what he is doing - only an incompetent writer would speak of a symbolic baptism that involves the death of the old nature while also believing that the literal baptism takes place after the old nature is already dead.

 

[Drew]

Paul pays equal attention to the aspect of new life in baptism. You are conveniently overlooking it.

I have done nothing of the kind. I have repeatedly affirmed that Paul sees a new life aspect to baptism. From an earlier post of mine:

Paul sees baptism as a death of the old self and an emergence of the new creation out the other side.

 

[Solo]

I wouldn't expect a Roman Catholic to post anything else. No Scripture was expected and confirmation of same made.

That is unfair, since I have posted about a dozen verses on this topic:

Verses that show entire households were baptized.
Verses that show that God deigns to save people on the intercessions of others.
Verses that show that baptism replaces circumcision as the means of entering the People of God.

Please do not allow your distaste for Roman Catholicism get in the way of a constructive discussion. I believe the argument presented is worthy of merit based upon several Scriptural notions. Merely denying that because it comes from a "Roman Catholic" is quite un-Christian. Furthermore, Drew, a non-Catholic, has also presented an interesting argument that has not been addressed yet (besides simple denial).

Regards

I have a distaste for all who pervert the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and who are false teachers. Note that the Scriptures speak quite clearly that the false teachers came out from among the body of Christ, but were not of the body of Christ.

• But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. 2 Peter 2:1

• 18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that Antichrist shall come, even now are there many Antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us. 1 John 2:18-19

Verses that show entire households were baptized.

Not one single person is shown to be baptized in the name of the Lord without first hearing the Word of God, believing the Word of God, and acting upon the Word of God. NOT ONE. All those in the household that were baptized were able to hear the Word of God, believe the Word of God, and act upon the Word of God.

Verses that show that God deigns to save people on the intercessions of others.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only intercessor of the body of Christ; there are no other intercessors. While we can pray for others, we cannot intercede for them as we are unworthy. The Scriptures show Jesus Christ as the only intercessor of the body of Christ, and only to those who come to the light. He does not intercede for unbelievers.

Verses that show that baptism replaces circumcision as the means of entering the People of God.

What a heretical statement! There is only one way to enter the body of Christ, and that is through hearing the Word of God, believing the Word of God, and acting upon the Word of God. Baptism does not establish ones entrance into the Kingdom of God.

The view that baptism is new covenant and replaces circumcision of old covenant into the children of God is unbiblical. No where in the Bible do we learn that baptism replaces circumcision.

The Bible is clear of what baptism is, who it is for, and what it accomplishes. In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him.

• Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

• 3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4

Baptism was confined to the descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and those who converted to Judaism while baptism is for all who believe in all nations.

Circumcision was confined to males only. Baptism is for all who believe regardless of gender.

 

[francisdesales]

I have a distaste for all who pervert the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and who are false teachers. Note that the Scriptures speak quite clearly that the false teachers came out from among the body of Christ, but were not of the body of Christ.

Ditto.

It is gratifying that at least you think I am part of the Body of Christ, I suppose. That's a start.

Not one single person is shown to be baptized in the name of the Lord without first hearing the Word of God, believing the Word of God, and acting upon the Word of God. NOT ONE. All those in the household that were baptized were able to hear the Word of God, believe the Word of God, and act upon the Word of God.

Several comments, if I might.

First, there are very few actual relations from Scriptures of a person being baptized and leading up to Baptism. Thus, we cannot know if the Scriptures are telling us "this is the only way". That specifically is never mentioned as a requirement. You are treating the Scriptures like a Catechism or a book on Systematic Theology. The Bible clearly does not relate everything (or explain) everything Christians did in the first century.

The Scriptures do not tell us that "those in the household that were baptized were able to hear the Word..." It SPECIFICALLY states ALL were baptized, and there is NO exclusion whatsoever mentioned. Thus, you are adding to the Scriptural account in this case.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only intercessor of the body of Christ; there are no other intercessors.

You are incorrect. The Christ is the sole MEDIATOR, not the sole intercessor. Please consider that prayer IS intercession. The Gospels have a number of accounts of a person coming to Christ to intercede for the benefit of another. The Centurion comes to have Christ heal his servant. And clearly, not a single dead person asked for Christ's healing powers. And yet, Christ healed. I remind you that physical and spiritual healing are NOT separated by Scriptures.

While we can pray for others, we cannot intercede for them as we are unworthy.

God hears the prayers of billions of "unworthy" people because God IS LOVE. As a recent defendant of Trinitarian doctrine, I would have thought you would know that THIS doctrine is KEY for knowing the heart of Christianity: God is Love. Love does not require perfection before It reaches out and pours Itself upon us. Fortunately.

God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Romans 5:8

What a heretical statement! There is only one way to enter the body of Christ, and that is through hearing the Word of God, believing the Word of God, and acting upon the Word of God. Baptism does not establish ones entrance into the Kingdom of God.

I am sorry, but you are again wrong. If I might, I wil quote from the same epistle...

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. Romans 6:3-4

I posit that we are saved, enter into eternal life, by KNOWING Christ, being immersed in the Paschal Mystery of His death and resurrection. It is through His work on the cross that frees us from sins, and baptism is THE WAY by which we are immersed in that Mystery of Christ. Thus, to put aside Baptism is to put aside union with the Work of Christ.

What does that mean to you?

Jesus Himself said we must be born from above by water and the Spirit, which is Christian baptism. Thus, Peter declared immediately after receiving the Spirit that one must be baptized.

Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Acts 2:38

I don't want to turn this into another "does baptism save" thread, so I'll just end this with a question...

What do you have to do to be born? What exactly did you have to do?

The view that baptism is new covenant and replaces circumcision of old covenant into the children of God is unbiblical. No where in the Bible do we learn that baptism replaces circumcision.

Paul does in Colossians chapter 2 and Hebrews tells us that the rituals of the Old Covenant are replaced by the New. This clearly was predicted by the prophets.

Baptism was confined to the descendants of Abraham, Issac, and Jacob, and those who converted to Judaism while baptism is for all who believe in all nations.

You have confused me with that statement, so rather than attempt to guess, I'll just ask you to please reiterate what you mean. Thanks.

Circumcision was confined to males only. Baptism is for all who believe regardless of gender.

[/quote]

Yes, which is the entire point of why (among other reasons) that the Old is merely a SHADOW of the good things that have come. The Church is now catholic rather than Jewish.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Paul pays equal attention to the aspect of new life in baptism. You are conveniently overlooking it.

I have done nothing of the kind. I have repeatedly affirmed that Paul sees a new life aspect to baptism. From an earlier post of mine:

Paul sees baptism as a death of the old self and an emergence of the new creation out the other side.

Then stick to that.

 

[francisdesales]

It is emphatically not all about life. It is partly about life, but early in Romans 6, Paul says that it is certainly also about death

Exactly, which is why the Church, during her baptismal rituals, note the aspects of new birth and new life (creation), its cleansing us from sin (passage through the Red Sea), AS WELL as destruction (the flood).

Water brings about new birth, it cleanses, and it destroys. What a wonderfully versatile symbolic device.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only intercessor of the body of Christ; there are no other intercessors. While we can pray for others, we cannot intercede for them as we are unworthy. The Scriptures show Jesus Christ as the only intercessor of the body of Christ, and only to those who come to the light. He does not intercede for unbelievers.

We are supposed to intercede as christians. We are deemed worthy to do that by Christ. What we aren't worthy of is to mediate, which is Jesus' job. those who baptize infants are acting as some sort of intermediary betrween God and man. hoping to confer salvation upon a faithless infant.

 

[francisdesales]

We are supposed to intercede as christians. We are deemed worthy to do that by Christ. What we aren't worthy of is to mediate, which is Jesus' job. those who baptize infants are acting as some sort of intermediary betrween God and man. hoping to confer salvation upon a faithless infant.

I do not follow that logic.

Did the Centurion also make the same mistake by requesting the Jesus heal his servant, as well???

How about Lazarus? HOW DARE he didn't ask Jesus to raise him from the dead... :P

 

[Solo]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only intercessor of the body of Christ; there are no other intercessors. While we can pray for others, we cannot intercede for them as we are unworthy. The Scriptures show Jesus Christ as the only intercessor of the body of Christ, and only to those who come to the light. He does not intercede for unbelievers.

We are supposed to intercede as christians. We are deemed worthy to do that by Christ. What we aren't worthy of is to mediate, which is Jesus' job. those who baptize infants are acting as some sort of intermediary betrween God and man. hoping to confer salvation upon a faithless infant.

Alabaster,

Out terminology and use of the word intercede is used when we pray for others, however, it is an unbiblical usage of the word intercede.

To intercede means to mediate and advocate for the body of Christ. We can only pray to Jesus Christ to intercede, mediate, advocate for the body of Christ. All who are lost are without Christ and do not have him to advocate, intercede, mediate their position. Only when they come to Him will he then intercede for them before the Father.

Check out the following New Testament Scripture verses where the use of the words intercession, mediate, and advocate are used:

• Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession <Greek word ὑÀεÃÂενÄÅγÇάνει make intercession for one> for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. Romans 8:26

• 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession <Greek word á¼ÂνÄÅγÇάνει make intercession> for the saints according to the will of God. Romans 8:27

• 34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession <Greek word á¼ÂνÄÅγÇάνει make intercession> for us. Romans 8:34

• 1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. Wot ye not what the scripture saith of Elias? how he maketh intercession <Greek word á¼ÂνÄÅγÇάνει make intercession> to God against Israel, saying, 3 Lord, they have killed thy prophets, and digged down thine altars; and I am left alone, and they seek my life.
  Romans 11:1-3

• 1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions <Greek word á¼ÂνÄεÃÂξει translated petition in other translations>, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; 2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. 1 Timothy 2:1-6

• Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to maketh intercession <Greek word á¼ÂνÄÅγÇάνει make intercession> for them. Hebrews 7:25

• But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises. Hebrews 8:6

• And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance. Hebrews 9:15

• And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel. Hebrews 12:24

• 
  My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 1 John 2:1

We should petition the father for all whom God brings to our mind to pray for, while Jesus Christ intercedes, mediates, advocates face to face with the Father for each one.

God bless,

Solo

 

[Alabaster]

We are supposed to intercede as christians. We are deemed worthy to do that by Christ. What we aren't worthy of is to mediate, which is Jesus' job. those who baptize infants are acting as some sort of intermediary betrween God and man. hoping to confer salvation upon a faithless infant.

I do not follow that logic.

Did the Centurion also make the same mistake by requesting the Jesus heal his servant, as well???

How about Lazarus? HOW DARE he didn't ask Jesus to raise him from the dead... :P

What? Where is YOUR logic?

What does that have to do with Jesus' role as mediator? Those acts of Jesus of healing and raising the dead were precipitated by the faith of people. We intercede in faith.

 

[Alabaster]

The Lord Jesus Christ is the only intercessor of the body of Christ; there are no other intercessors. While we can pray for others, we cannot intercede for them as we are unworthy. The Scriptures show Jesus Christ as the only intercessor of the body of Christ, and only to those who come to the light. He does not intercede for unbelievers.

We are supposed to intercede as christians. We are deemed worthy to do that by Christ. What we aren't worthy of is to mediate, which is Jesus' job. those who baptize infants are acting as some sort of intermediary betrween God and man. hoping to confer salvation upon a faithless infant.

Alabaster,

Out terminology and use of the word intercede is used when we pray for others, however, it is an unbiblical usage of the word intercede.

To intercede means to mediate and advocate for the body of Christ. We can only pray to Jesus Christ to intercede, mediate, advocate for the body of Christ. All who are lost are without Christ and do not have him to advocate, intercede, mediate their position. Only when they come to Him will he then intercede for them before the Father.

1 Timothy 2:1-2
I urge you, first of all, to pray for all people. Ask God to help them; intercede on their behalf, and give thanks for them. Pray this way for kings and all who are in authority so that we can live peaceful and quiet lives marked by godliness and dignity.

 

[Drew]

I have a distaste for all who pervert the truth of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and who are false teachers.

Why is it, Solo, that, you must transform these discussions into highly rhetorical attacks on those who disagree with you. Why not stick to the matter at issue, make your argument, and let the reader come to whatever conclusion they like about who, if anyone, is perverting the truth? Do you see me declaring that those who disagree with my view are "liars", "perverters of truth", etc? No, you do not. Why not keep things at the "issue" level and not engage in demonization.?

Not one single person is shown to be baptized in the name of the Lord without first hearing the Word of God, believing the Word of God, and acting upon the Word of God. NOT ONE. All those in the household that were baptized were able to hear the Word of God, believe the Word of God, and act upon the Word of God.

Please substantiate this claim - please cite chapter and verse where it is stated that "all those in the household that were baptized were able to hear the Word of God, believe the Word of God, and act upon the Word of God".

 

[francisdesales]

Did the Centurion also make the same mistake by requesting the Jesus heal his servant, as well???

How about Lazarus? HOW DARE he didn't ask Jesus to raise him from the dead... :P

...Those acts of Jesus of healing and raising the dead were precipitated by the faith of people. We intercede in faith.

Ah-ha...

You have just provided the reason for infant baptism and now understand my point.

Regards

 

[Alabaster]

Acts 10:1-2
1 In Caesarea there lived a Roman army officer named Cornelius, who was a captain of the Italian Regiment. 2 He was a devout, God-fearing man, as was everyone in his household. He gave generously to the poor and prayed regularly to God.

Acts 10:30-33
30 Cornelius replied, “Four days ago I was praying in my house about this same time, three o’clock in the afternoon. Suddenly, a man in dazzling clothes was standing in front of me. 31 He told me, ‘Cornelius, your prayer has been heard, and your gifts to the poor have been noticed by God! 32 Now send messengers to Joppa, and summon a man named Simon Peter. He is staying in the home of Simon, a tanner who lives near the seashore.’ 33 So I sent for you at once, and it was good of you to come. Now we are all here, waiting before God to hear the message the Lord has given you.â€Â


Acts 10:44-48
44 Even as Peter was saying these things, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who were listening to the message. 45 The Jewish believers who came with Peter were amazed that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles, too. 46 For they heard them speaking in tongues and praising God.

Then Peter asked, 47 “Can anyone object to their being baptized, now that they have received the Holy Spirit just as we did?†48 So he gave orders for them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Afterward Cornelius asked him to stay with them for several days.

 

[Alabaster]

Did the Centurion also make the same mistake by requesting the Jesus heal his servant, as well???

How about Lazarus? HOW DARE he didn't ask Jesus to raise him from the dead... :P

...Those acts of Jesus of healing and raising the dead were precipitated by the faith of people. We intercede in faith.

Ah-ha...

You have just provided the reason for infant baptism and now understand my point.

Regards

Which is?

Babies have no faith to believe.

 

[Drew]

In the Bible, only believers who had placed their faith in Christ were baptized - as a public testimony of their faith and identification with Him.

Impossible. You have a model for baptism that simply cannot be reconciled with what Paul writes. Note how, here in Romans 6, Paul declares baptism to be, at least in part, a mode of dying:

We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life

I am mystified that people do not see the problem with seeing baptism as simply a "testimony of active faith". Let's say that you are right - that baptism is properly thought of as a testimony of identification with Jesus.

Imagine a person Fred, declaring himself to be a born-again believer, a new creation, about to be baptized. The minister declares "Fred here is a new creation, a believer who has already passed from death into life and he now wants to give testimony to this by baptism".

A member of the congregation puts up his hand and says this:

"But, Reverend, Paul here in Romans 6 declares that we are baptised into death, that baptism brings about our death - "we were buried with him through baptism unto death". So how can it be sensible that baptism takes place after the person has passed from death into life?"

The Reverend replies:

"This is baptism is merely symbolic. I agree that Fred has died and has been re-born. What we are doing now is testifying to that fact. We are looking back on what has happened in Fred's heart and celebrating that, yes, he did die, and yes, he was raised to new life. Thus, when I dunk Fred down, we symbolize his death, and when I bring him up, this symbolizes his rebirth. But we are looking back at things that have already happened".

The astute member of the congregation replies:

"But you are bending what Paul actually says. Paul says that baptism brings about this death, he does not say that baptism reflects on, or remembers, or testifies, to this death."

And the member of the congregation would be right. Beware of when people bend or deform what the writer is saying into something other than what he has actually said. Like it or not, Paul declares - two times no less in this passage - that baptism is the event that brings about death. He does not say that baptism refects on, or remembers, or testifies to that death.

People in the protestant tradition do not want to let Paul say what he wants to say. I come from that traditon myself, but when I look at what Paul really wrote, I have to admit that "baptism as testimony" model is simply not consistent with what Paul has written.

 

[Alabaster]

All people who are baptized are believers FIRST. Get over it.