Infant Baptism Is Just As Valid As Adult Baptism

[Veritas]

We believe that the baby is buried with Christ just as any other adult as a result of Baptism, since it is God who makes Baptism efficacious, not the person's amount of faith or the type of water or the holiness of the minister. It is a work of God that is not dependent upon the individual.

I agree with this.

An infant is not capable to make a choice, and a person other then the infant cannot make a choice for him. Just logic.

See, faith goes beyond reason, beyond logic.

What happens when someone goes senile and cannot make that choice? Are they not saved?

What about those who are mentally challenged and cannot make a choice? Can they not be saved?

I think we should use reason, but not lean on it alone. Again, faith is something larger. It is a work of God, not a work from ourselves.

 

[Cornelius]

To the infant, it doesn't matter. After the ritual, he is a child of God. He does not know about "why the blood is necessary?" or "why not the pinkie?" He just IS.

Now we all know that is not true, don't we. That would be a real nice gospel though : Every baby that is sprinkled is a child of God We should run through the hospitals as soon as they are born and sprinkle them as fast as we can, and fill the kingdom of God.

If that WERE true, no man would need repentance to come to God , we would just "sprinkle , sprinkle " and all would be well.
Nowhere in the Bible does it even come close to such a heresy.

 

[Cornelius]

We believe that the baby is buried with Christ just as any other adult as a result of Baptism, since it is God who makes Baptism efficacious, not the person's amount of faith or the type of water or the holiness of the minister. It is a work of God that is not dependent upon the individual.

I agree with this.

An infant is not capable to make a choice, and a person other then the infant cannot make a choice for him. Just logic.

See, faith goes beyond reason, beyond logic.

What happens when someone goes senile and cannot make that choice? Are they not saved?

What about those who are mentally challenged and cannot make a choice? Can they not be saved?

I think we should use reason, but not lean on it alone. Again, faith is something larger. It is a work of God, not a work from ourselves.

Again, this sounds very good and a bit spiritual, but again: Its not the gospel now, is it. Its just human reasoning and has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches

 

[Adullam]

A Covenant is a two way street...like a marriage. It is conditional on the continued faithfulness of the one being married. This works for Christ and His church...and for the husband and his wife.

 

[Cornelius]

I understand the answers to your questions, but to the RECIPIENT, they are meaningless.

So what are the answers to my questions ?

 

[Cornelius]

I was sprinkled as a child , then I went out a lived my life in sin and I pleased my flesh and went into the occult and I served the Devil. If I died then , I would have had a front seat in hell. No matter of sprinkling would have saved me. I hated God and loved ME. I did everything I wanted to , in the manner I wanted to. I pleased only myself.So do not tell me that I "put on Christ " after they sprinkled me with a few drops of water. My mother prayed for me for 25 years and prophesied over me, and God had mercy on my LOST soul. One night He called me to Him and brought me to the first steps on the road TO salvation.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.

So after I was baptized for real this time, I DID put on Christ. God then , through His grace, allowed me to come to Him. In that water-grave, I left my old self behind. I needed that baptism, it separated me from my past. I died there and out of that water came a new me :Christ in me , the hope of glory. Praise God for baptism.

No wonder the Devil has it all out in battle against it. He very much needs to keep you away from it.

 

[francisdesales]

Again, this sounds very good and a bit spiritual, but again: Its not the gospel now, is it. Its just human reasoning and has nothing to do with what the Bible teaches

Maybe you are not familiar with the Bible and the concept of vicarious atonement or God saving someone based on the faith or prayers of another...

Explain to me the idea of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. WHO goes into the Holy of Holies? Does everyone? And yet, what happens? Is just the priest forgiven of sin?

Circumcision is the rite where a Jewish child becomes part of the People of God, the Church of the OT. By proxy, the parent's faith answers for the child. Does the faith of the child come into play here? And since baptism replaces circumcision, why cannot the faith of the parents act for the child here?

Are you aware of the story of Abraham pleading for the sparing of the city of Sodom? Again, did God demand that each individual from Sodom come to him and beg forgiveness before He would have spared them?

Are you aware of the prophet Isaiah and his "suffering servant" verses? How the "servant of God" would suffer for the sake of the larger community?

Cue up the New Testament...

Are you aware of the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2? Did the man drag himself to Christ?

Are you aware of the story of Lazarus being raised from the dead? Or how about the servant of the Centurion? Did the servant come to Christ?

And Paul. He also tells us, at least the Corinthians and Colossians, that one man can suffer or be glorified for the sake of another, as one member of the body is glorified, the rest are, as well...

What is the purpose of this stroll through the bible?

To show you that God does not absolutely REQUIRE that someone go PERSONALLY to Him to be healed or saved. God, in His great mercy and love, can and does choose to heed the prayers and intercessions of someone else, the Church. Whether it is the prayers of my parents offering me to be baptized or Fred praying for his atheist son to convert, the gift of the Holy Spirit does not require the individual assent of the will.

God doesn't need to await your "OK" before He comes. Romans 2 clearly says that the Spirit has written a Law on the hearts of pagans, making THEM "spiritual Jews". The Spirit blows where HE wills, not when you call Him down from heaven...

Thus, your anachronistic idea that focuses so much on one's own works and individuality ignores the fact that the Scriptures are more concerned with the community's faith and God's desire to extend His love and mercy for the sake of that community, that people that He has formed. Paul stresses faith in Christ THROUGH the community of believers, not apart from them.

We are a BODY bound together in Christ. Perhaps you should consider what that really means...

Certainly, your confirmation or re-version, the recognition of your inheritance for heaven, is instrumental in beginning your outward walk in Christ. Faith is a response to God, as well as a gift. However, the gift of God was already given to you long time ago. You just didn't recognize it until the Almighty awoken it within you, for whatever reasons delaying the effects of the Spirit given to you long ago.

Regards

 

[Adullam]

A dead man does not need to believe to be raised from the dead. But can one be a disciple vicariously?

Is one married by proxy?

 

[Cornelius]

Maybe you are not familiar with the Bible and the concept of vicarious atonement or God saving someone based on the faith or prayers of another...

Explain to me the idea of Yom Kippur, the Day of Atonement. WHO goes into the Holy of Holies? Does everyone? And yet, what happens? Is just the priest forgiven of sin?

That is a picture of Jesus.

Circumcision is the rite where a Jewish child becomes part of the People of God, the Church of the OT. By proxy, the parent's faith answers for the child. Does the faith of the child come into play here? And since baptism replaces circumcision, why cannot the faith of the parents act for the child here?

Because the Old Testament is the letter. In the Old, you became part of the Covenant people of God through natural birth. In the New, you do not become part through natural birth , but through spiritual birth (rebirth, Jesus called it) So no: No proxy salvation, this is now a one-on-One with God.

Are you aware of the story of Abraham pleading for the sparing of the city of Sodom? Again, did God demand that each individual from Sodom come to him and beg forgiveness before He would have spared them?

Are you aware of the prophet Isaiah and his "suffering servant" verses? How the "servant of God" would suffer for the sake of the larger community?

These a "pictures" we look at and these ones you are giving here has nothing to do with baptism

Cue up the New Testament...

Are you aware of the healing of the paralytic in Mark 2? Did the man drag himself to Christ?

You are mixing up healing with God calling a person to salvation and that person then responding and going to be baptized

Are you aware of the story of Lazarus being raised from the dead? Or how about the servant of the Centurion? Did the servant come to Christ?

Again, nothing to do with baptism

And Paul. He also tells us, at least the Corinthians and Colossians, that one man can suffer or be glorified for the sake of another, as one member of the body is glorified, the rest are, as well...

What is the purpose of this stroll through the bible?

To show you that God does not absolutely REQUIRE that someone go PERSONALLY to Him to be healed or saved.

Ah now that is not true is it You are trying to slip healing in with salvation and then make a dash to baptism. Ah, ah, ah, not going to work There are the whole New Testament that tells us about salvation . Its kind of personal these days .

God, in His great mercy and love, can and does choose to heed the prayers and intercessions of someone else, the Church. Whether it is the prayers of my parents offering me to be baptized or Fred praying for his atheist son to convert, the gift of the Holy Spirit does not require the individual assent of the will.

Again, you are using religious language here, that sounds right, but it not according to the Gospel. We can pray for the salvation of others. (that is Scriptural) but there is not prayer a parent can pray at an infant baptism, for the simple reason the infant baptism is unscriptural.Also the mention of the Holy Spirit at this point of your post , is not relevant to baptism

God doesn't need to await your "OK" before He comes. Romans 2 clearly says that the Spirit has written a Law on the hearts of pagans, making THEM "spiritual Jews". The Spirit blows where HE wills, not when you call Him down from heaven...

I think you should read Romans 2 again. Also the Spirit blows wherever he wills, so no baptism of an infant will force Him to blow over that child, if that child has not been predestined unto salvation. It is grace not works (like baptism) that saves us...........the Spirit indeed blows where it wills when it come to who will be saved. Jesus mentioned this in relation to the rebirth.

Thus, your anachronistic idea that focuses so much on one's own works and individuality ignores the fact that the Scriptures are more concerned with the community's faith and God's desire to extend His love and mercy for the sake of that community, that people that He has formed. Paul stresses faith in Christ THROUGH the community of believers, not apart from them.

We first come as the individual (the Spirit blows.........remember) and then after we are baptized ....."into Christ" we then are ........."in Christ" . Only then are we part of the community (as you say). Not before that.

We are a BODY bound together in Christ. Perhaps you should consider what that really means...

I think the scripture says it all:Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized (as adults) into Christ did put on Christ.

Certainly, your confirmation or re-version, the recognition of your inheritance for heaven, is instrumental in beginning your outward walk in Christ. Faith is a response to God, as well as a gift. However, the gift of God was already given to you long time ago. You just didn't recognize it until the Almighty awoken it within you, for whatever reasons delaying the effects of the Spirit given to you long ago.

It had nothing to do with my being sprinkled as a child, because if the "Spirit did not blow" towards me, I would have been sprinkled and on my way to hell. If God did not predestine me , then it would not have mattered what my parents did, or did not do.

Its all GRACE

C

 

[Cornelius]

You still have to answer my question, that you said you know the answer to.

C

 

[francisdesales]

A dead man does not need to believe to be raised from the dead. But can one be a disciple vicariously?

Is one married by proxy?

We are talking about two different things.

Baptism washes our sins - in that way, we are saved, since salvation is being freed from sin.

Our WALK, on the other hand, being a disciple, only has JUST BEGUN with Baptism. Naturally, when one recognizes the gift, they will respond through faith working in love. That may take YEARS to recognize that God made us for Himself. But the walk does not save us, since being freed from sin (salvation) is entirely a gift - best represented by the infant becoming a child of God.

Regards

 

[Nick]

this topic was similar, it might be worth taking a look at it.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=35132

 

[francisdesales]

Because the Old Testament is the letter. In the Old, you became part of the Covenant people of God through natural birth. In the New, you do not become part through natural birth , but through spiritual birth (rebirth, Jesus called it) So no: No proxy salvation, this is now a one-on-One with God.

No, a person doesn't become part of the Covenant people by birth, but through circumcision. Circumcision is a sign of the Covenant, and it is man's response to God's initiative.

It appears you are missing the point... The bible is full of vicarious offerings for the sake of others. You can erect artificial excuses, as if physical healing has nothing to do with spiritual healing (the very healing I gave you, Mark 2, is a perfect example of how the two are linked, if you re-familiarize yourself with the pericope). The fact remains, however, that we have plenty of biblical precedent, both literally and spiritually, to say that God accepts the prayers of His People for the sake of OTHER people, even if they do not ask for God's help directly.

Again, you are using religious language here, that sounds right, but it not according to the Gospel. We can pray for the salvation of others. (that is Scriptural) but there is not prayer a parent can pray at an infant baptism, for the simple reason the infant baptism is unscriptural.

Where is this limitation on God come from? Again, you erect barriers for God because you do not desire it?

Infant baptism is not "unscriptural", by the way. The bible says nothing of it one way OR the other. In other words, we do not know if "entire family was baptized" includes children or infants. The precedent has been established via circumcision and seems only natural for a Jewish convert to desire to bring his family to God by baptism.

I think you should read Romans 2 again. Also the Spirit blows wherever he wills, so no baptism of an infant will force Him to blow over that child, if that child has not been predestined unto salvation.

Exactly. When IF God HAD INDEED predestined the infant to be baptized? I am wondering why a person needs to be an adult if it is God who does the predestining, rather than Cornelius' faith...

It is grace not works (like baptism) that saves us...........the Spirit indeed blows where it wills when it come to who will be saved. Jesus mentioned this in relation to the rebirth.

I am beginning to think that to you, that is a cliche that is discarded, since you really do not believe that. You claim the Spirit can only blow when Cornelius calls upon Him with the "proper" amount of faith - no doubt self-generated.

Do you see why infant baptism expresses the idea that salvation is entirely a gift, just as circumcision was?

We first come as the individual (the Spirit blows.........remember) and then after we are baptized ....."into Christ" we then are ........."in Christ" . Only then are we part of the community (as you say). Not before that.

Yes, the Spirit blows where HE wills, not where YOU say He will blow. Accept this fact. Praise the Lord for being so gracious to give this wonderful gift of salvation to the undeserving without "x" amount of faith.

Your complaint reminds me of the workers in the field who complained that they were only paid one day's wages, while the guy who worked a few minutes was paid the same.

Are you, too, going to gainsay the freely-given gift of God because the infant didn't "work enough"?

I think the scripture says it all:Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized (as adults) into Christ did put on Christ.

As adults? Do you always invent things to insert into the Word of God to suit your purposes?

It says "as many of you". The entire Christian community at Galatia, men, women and children.

It had nothing to do with my being sprinkled as a child, because if the "Spirit did not blow" towards me, I would have been sprinkled and on my way to hell. If God did not predestine me , then it would not have mattered what my parents did, or did not do.

Correct, God predestined you and ensured that you were baptized. Whether it happened with your willing consent or not is inconsequential.

Unless you believe you are saved by your own works...

Its all GRACE

You do not really believe that, do you...

 

[duval]

It is true that infant baptism ( which is no baptism at all ) may be just as valid as ( some ) adult baptisms, but NOT as good as a believers baptism, Mk.16:15,16.

God bless,
duval

 

[Cornelius]

No, a person doesn't become part of the Covenant people by birth, but through circumcision. Circumcision is a sign of the Covenant, and it is man's response to God's initiative.

You know very well what I mean. You have to be BORN a Jew first. Its a letter Covenant. A real knife, real blood and a real foreskin

It appears you are missing the point... The bible is full of vicarious offerings for the sake of others. You can erect artificial excuses, as if physical healing has nothing to do with spiritual healing (the very healing I gave you, Mark 2, is a perfect example of how the two are linked, if you re-familiarize yourself with the pericope). The fact remains, however, that we have plenty of biblical precedent, both literally and spiritually, to say that God accepts the prayers of His People for the sake of OTHER people, even if they do not ask for God's help directly.

Yes , I have never said that we cannot pray for others. Baptism is not prayer though. Like forgiveness. You cannot pray and through proxy carry the forgiveness that your brother should give. He has to forgive , you cannot "proxy forgive" for him, in the same way you can not "proxy baptize" an infant.

Where is this limitation on God come from? Again, you erect barriers for God because you do not desire it?

This limitation is from the Word itself. Did you know that God placed conditions and limitation in the Word ? Some of these are even limitations on Himself. For instance, He cannot break His own Word.

Infant baptism is not "unscriptural", by the way. The bible says nothing of it one way OR the other.

Yes it is, for the very reason that the Bible does not say anything one way or another. The Bible also does not say anything one way or another about flower arrangements. That does not give us the right to then turn flower arrangements into something Biblical and linked to salvation.

In other words, we do not know if "entire family was baptized" includes children or infants.

Exactly, we do not know, so infant baptism is a presumptuous error.

The precedent has been established via circumcision and seems only natural for a Jewish convert to desire to bring his family to God by baptism.

You are mistaken to take circumcision as your example about infants. I told you before, that if you understood the reasons for circumcision , you would know why it had to happen to an infant in Israel. The reasons do not apply to Christianity . Circumcision is not carried over in the letter in the New Testament. Its carried over in the spirit. Like all other things in the Old to the New.

Exactly. When IF God HAD INDEED predestined the infant to be baptized? I am wondering why a person needs to be an adult if it is God who does the predestining, rather than Cornelius' faith...

God never predestines a child to baptism. That is not what predestination means. Predestination has only ONE purpose in the Bible..............the elect gets predestined to manifest Christ.

I am beginning to think that to you, that is a cliche that is discarded, since you really do not believe that. You claim the Spirit can only blow when Cornelius calls upon Him with the "proper" amount of faith - no doubt self-generated.

You are placing words in my mouth that I never said. Please use your quote facility to quote me.You above statement shows that you are now moving into ridicule and not factual Biblical explanations.

Do you see why infant baptism expresses the idea that salvation is entirely a gift, just as circumcision was?

The adult who gets baptized shows forth a "picture" of death (into the water) and resurrection (out of the water). The old man or "flesh" gets left behind in the water. It also symbolizes the washing with the water of the Word. Also, just as Israel left Egypt (sin and the world) they moved first through the Red Sea (Baptism) and the world and sin gets cut off from them (Egyptians drown) and Moses tells them they will never see them again. The Baptism in the Holy Spirit is shown by the Column of Fire.

So baptism is something that you need faith for. Its an act of faith and obedience. Both of which an infant cannot have.

Yes, the Spirit blows where HE wills, not where YOU say He will blow. Accept this fact. Praise the Lord for being so gracious to give this wonderful gift of salvation to the undeserving without "x" amount of faith.

Praise God, yes indeed the Spirit blows where He wants. But this fact has nothing to do with baptism, which is the matter we are discussing.

Your complaint reminds me of the workers in the field who complained that they were only paid one day's wages, while the guy who worked a few minutes was paid the same

Are you, too, going to gainsay the freely-given gift of God because the infant didn't "work enough"?.

You are misunderstanding that parable , but this is not the place to talk about that parable.

It depends if the Spirit has blown to this infant. A fact that we would only know one day when he or she shows that they indeed have been called or not of the Lord.

As adults? Do you always invent things to insert into the Word of God to suit your purposes?

You must admit you statement is funny in view of your above statement that infant baptism is not mentioned in the Bible and yet you inserted it into the Word. LOL I hope you see the irony of your statement.

It says "as many of you". The entire Christian community at Galatia, men, women and children.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ did put on Christ.
That would be those who have met all the conditions of the rest of the New Testament teaching about salvation and coming to the Lord. We cannot NOT read the rest of the Gospel and make up a doctrine on human logic. Truth means: ALL the facts.

Correct, God predestined you and ensured that you were baptized. Whether it happened with your willing consent or not is inconsequential.

As an adult yes. God knows His Word and He followed all the steps in order in my salvation. I followed the path exactly as in Scripture. In fact, mine looks just like the trip of Israel out of Egypt.

Unless you believe you are saved by your own works...

No but we have to be obedient. I hope yo do not believe that you will be saved without any fruit? I hope you do not believe you will be saved without obedience to the Word? I pray you know that both these things are things we do. My human effort will not save me, but if I lack to run this race , I will not make it. So the doctrine of "works" need a lot of "work" Its abused and misunderstood. People use it like a religious club, without knowing what it means.

I also pray that you do not think that your infant baptism magically transferred you into the elect.I pray that you do not place any hopes on that ritual, because it has no power and no meaning in the real Gospel. Each of us , comes as we are called, and each of us repents as an individual. The to show forth that repentance, we get baptized.

 

[Cornelius]

But the walk does not save us, since being freed from sin (salvation) is entirely a gift - best represented by the infant becoming a child of God.

Regards

So now you are back to OSAS.

 

[RobertMazar]

Infant Baptism is just as valid as Adult Baptism because it is also administered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Which is the formula that Jesus prescribed for administering Baptism). Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus and thus is totally superfluous to salvation. So what difference does it make if infants are Baptized?

Do you believe in infant betrothals?

No of course I do not. But infant betrothals are totally superfluous to this discussion.

 

[RobertMazar]

I have never seen in the Bible "baby baptism" or the Apostles baptizing infants. This is just illogical. An infant is not capable to make a choice, and a person other then the infant cannot make a choice for him. Just logic.

And the Apostles never baptized in the name of the "Father, Son, and Holy Spirit". 1)Father is not a name, Son is not a name, Holy Spirit is not a name. 2) In all the ocassions in Acts, the Apostles always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ!

Infant Baptism and Infant Dedication is the same thing as far as I am concerned because Infant Baptism is just a dedication of infants to Jesus and does not impart salvation. Just as Adult Baptism is just a dedication of adults to Jesus. Also, the formula that Jesus gave for Baptism is "Baptize them in the NAME OF THE FATHER, SON AND HOLY SPIRIT". Jesus did not state to Baptize in the name of Jesus Christ.

 

[FightingAtheism]

1)

19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations , baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
(Mt.28:19)

Can you teach an infant? Why does it say teach? So a person could make a decision! God gave people free will, not for other people to decide for them.


2)

21 Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,
(1Pe.3:21) NASB

It is clear, an infant cannot make the decision: an appeal to God for a good conscience.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit:

Can you see INTO , can you see it does not say :"IN" ?

Do you know that the word that is translated "NAME" in both Greek and Hebrew means" Nature, Character and Authority ?
So when you get baptized, the Bible says, you get baptized INTO the nature, character and authority of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. So for this unfortunately infants are excluded until they repent one day. Its not a walk for those who have not yet repented.

Baptism is NOT a dedication. Not for an infant and not for an adult.

You have to first know the reason for the circumcision and what that represents and the ADULT baptism will become clear to you. And no, the circumcision of a child does not mean we must baptize infants. That is a false doctrine.

Fact: The Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Question: Why is it that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, when Jesus told them to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit?

 

[Cornelius]

Fact: The Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.
Question: Why is it that the Apostles baptized in the name of Jesus Christ, when Jesus told them to baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit?

Because its the same thing.