Infant Baptism Is Just As Valid As Adult Baptism

[francisdesales]

The reality is that after baptism we do not enter the Kingdom, now do we. No, we first enter the wilderness to be tested.

It appears that you believe the "Kingdom of God" is only achieved with heaven. Jesus says we can enter the Kingdom now, in this life. The "Kingdom" refers to the life that we can begin to lead even NOW - the Way of Life that Christ is promoting, one of light rather than darkness. You cannot have that life today unless you are born from above. It's all in John 3. Read it again.

Israel went through the Red Sea (baptism) into the wilderness (40 years) to be tested.
Jesus went through baptism and directly into the wilderness (40 days ) to be tested.

Yes, refering to having the Kingdom completely in our total union with God in heaven... However, even in this life, we BEGIN to participate in the Kingdom. We begin to participate in the divine nature even today.

Most did not enter the Promised Land , they did not enter the Kingdom. Even thought they were baptized in water and in the Spirit of God.

They were all given the same inheritance, the same status. They were children of God, a people set apart, a people that had been given the Law of God and the Way that brings the Kingdom into this world. You are ignoring the "now, but not all yet..." aspect of the Kingdom.

And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand. Mat 10:7

Jesus explains this with the classic parable:

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: Mat 13:24

or

Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened. Mat 13:33

or

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto treasure hid in a field; the which when a man hath found, he hideth, and for joy thereof goeth and selleth all that he hath, and buyeth that field Mat 13:44

Or

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a merchant man, seeking goodly pearls: Mat 13:46

Read the parables and tell me if they refer to Heaven or to a Life laid before us by the Christ, in THIS world...

"Being born from above" is the necessary requirement to begin to live the life that Christ preaches us to live - TODAY!

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

So, those who believe in infant baptism, PLEASE do not get baptized as an adult, it is NOT meant for you. Stay out of the water ![/u]

this reminds me of some people getting confused with the purpose of baptism and so going to be baptized 5 or 6 times over the course of their life because the others "didn't take". They think if they sin again, the previous baptism wasn't good enough. Unfortunately, they misunderstand the role of baptism. It doesn't make you impervious to future sins. It opens the door to the Kingdom and brings the Spirit. There is no need to "do it again", since one is born from above. Getting baptized 100 times makes no difference, since you can do nothing to be "born from above".

Cornelius, you didn't need to get re-baptized as an adult. You already were born from above the first time... Just like you cannot be re-born from your mother, you cannot be re-born from above.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

So, those who believe in infant baptism, PLEASE do not get baptized as an adult, it is NOT meant for you. Stay out of the water ![/u]

this reminds me of some people getting confused with the purpose of baptism and so going to be baptized 5 or 6 times over the course of their life because the others "didn't take". They think if they sin again, the previous baptism wasn't good enough. Unfortunately, they misunderstand the role of baptism. It doesn't make you impervious to future sins. It opens the door to the Kingdom and brings the Spirit. There is no need to "do it again", since one is born from above. Getting baptized 100 times makes no difference, since you can do nothing to be "born from above".

Cornelius, you didn't need to get re-baptized as an adult. You already were born from above the first time... Just like you cannot be re-born from your mother, you cannot be re-born from above.

Regards

So you say that baptism has now taken the place of circumcision.

That means the same rules apply for both then.

1)So why was it, that those who were already circumcised had to be baptized again as adults? Why not just say: OK, everybody here who is circumcised, step aside, you are already in the Kingdom from birth. All those not circumcised , step right up and bring your children, we are now going to make you enter into the Kingdom, but no need for the knife, we are going to use water.


2) Please explain the rebirth in your own words to me.

 

[Cornelius]

this reminds me of some people getting confused with the purpose of baptism and so going to be baptized 5 or 6 times over the course of their life because the others "didn't take". They think if they sin again, the previous baptism wasn't good enough. Unfortunately, they misunderstand the role of baptism. It doesn't make you impervious to future sins. It opens the door to the Kingdom and brings the Spirit. There is no need to "do it again", since one is born from above. Getting baptized 100 times makes no difference, since you can do nothing to be "born from above".

That is the reason why those who believe in infant baptism should stay out of the water. The same reason as these people kept on getting baptized. No understanding.

You have a bath every day, where you emerge yourself in water. That does nothing for you, except to clean your body. The same with baptism.In, out......nothing happens. You took a bath in public, that is all. Your body is clean, but you are still spiritually where you were before you got wet. Actually you are in the same place as the child with the wet head. Just wet.

It also does not open the door to the Kingdom. God did not design any ritual to do that. That would be stupid and human. Humans do things like "rituals" . In fact we LOVE it. We sit at the same place every Sunday. We go to the same restaurants. If we could turn everything into a ritual we would do so. In fact , many of us do that anyway.And we still think God smiles on the ritual and say: "Bless you my child, how religious you are "

C

 

[francisdesales]

So you say that baptism has now taken the place of circumcision.

That means the same rules apply for both then.

1)So why was it, that those who were already circumcised had to be baptized again as adults? Why not just say: OK, everybody here who is circumcised, step aside, you are already in the Kingdom from birth. All those not circumcised , step right up and bring your children, we are now going to make you enter into the Kingdom, but no need for the knife, we are going to use water.

Because circumcision is not a religious rite for the vast majority of us here, but a hygenic practice. Furthermore, the New Covenant replace the Old. The Old is abrogated, no longer effective. We are baptized into something better.

2) Please explain the rebirth in your own words to me.

Rebirth? Nicodemus also got confused over that...

We are born from God, born from above, not again. Being born (in either case) did not depend upon my acceptance or decision. I was just born. Born from above with visible substance into a visible believing community.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

...................

"Being born from above" is the necessary requirement to begin to live the life that Christ preaches us to live - TODAY!

Regards

No I believe the Kingdom starts here on earth.

....and a baby cannot repent, so it cannot enter the Kingdom.

 

[francisdesales]

You have a bath every day, where you emerge yourself in water. That does nothing for you, except to clean your body. The same with baptism.In, out......nothing happens. You took a bath in public, that is all. Your body is clean, but you are still spiritually where you were before you got wet.

"Nothing happens" because you do not see what happens. Your mind is confined to carnal things, the water, rather than spiritual. Jesus says this. You expect baptism to be a flesh changing event, something where we express our faith or do cartwheels or something. Baptism washes away our sins, which are not seen. It seals us with the Spirit, which is not seen. It identifies us as God's property, which is not seen.

Water speaks of an identifiable practice on the part of a community of believers mediating God's initiative. Entering the Kingdom is related to flesh and blood reality within a flesh and blood community of the disciples of Jesus in whom this new birth has occured.

No upperward reach from below, from the flesh, can ever bring about the divine work from above. New Life comes from God and is a God-given gift.

It also does not open the door to the Kingdom. God did not design any ritual to do that.

Baptism opens the door to the Kingdom, for without it, you cannot enter the Kingdom. Thus, by definition, it is a door. The ritual is mediating God's work IN THE WORLD.

That would be stupid and human. Humans do things like "rituals" . In fact we LOVE it. We sit at the same place every Sunday. We go to the same restaurants. If we could turn everything into a ritual we would do so. In fact , many of us do that anyway.And we still think God smiles on the ritual and say: "Bless you my child, how religious you are "

Religious rituals make present invisible things. Scriptures are full of such symbolic meanings and rituals. Jesus commanded us to continue rituals that He taught, Baptism and the Eucharist. We find the first Christians continuing to follow Jesus' commands. You disparage what you do not understand.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

...and a baby cannot repent, so it cannot enter the Kingdom.

Why not? Explain yourself, don't just give me these redundant answers without explanation.

 

[Cornelius]

"Nothing happens" because you do not see what happens. Your mind is confined to carnal things, the water, rather than spiritual. Jesus says this.

Where?

You expect baptism to be a flesh changing event, something where we express our faith or do cartwheels or something. Baptism washes away our sins, which are not seen. It seals us with the Spirit, which is not seen. It identifies us as God's property, which is not seen.

So the water really washes away your sin?

Water speaks of an identifiable practice on the part of a community of believers mediating God's initiative. Entering the Kingdom is related to flesh and blood reality within a flesh and blood community of the disciples of Jesus in whom this new birth has occured.

Sorry, but this is sounding very high and religious , but this is not saying anything really. Forgive me , but you sound like a politician.

No upperward reach from below, from the flesh, can ever bring about the divine work from above. New Life comes from God and is a God-given gift.

Yea, but you are straying............

Baptism opens the door to the Kingdom, for without it, you cannot enter the Kingdom. Thus, by definition, it is a door.

Where does it say baptism is a door into the Kingdom? I thought Jesus was the door.Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. Joh 10:7

The ritual is mediating God's work IN THE WORLD.

Heavy stuff for an infant to ponder, don't you think ?

Religious rituals make present invisible things. Scriptures are full of such symbolic meanings and rituals. Jesus commanded us to continue rituals that He taught, Baptism and the Eucharist. We find the first Christians continuing to follow Jesus' commands. You disparage what you do not understand.

Maybe I do this, because it is not a ritual to me ?

 

[Cornelius]

...and a baby cannot repent, so it cannot enter the Kingdom.

Why not? Explain yourself, don't just give me these redundant answers without explanation.

You have to be kidding me.

 

[Cornelius]

The problem is that some have been taught that a baby that dies without the drops of water on its head, is heading straight for hell.

So human.

Its like they think God is seeing this baby die and in a panic He calls Gabriel over and says: "Oh dear Gabriel, look ! A little baby has just died without being drizzled, so now I cannot bring it to heaven. Oh, I wish the parents were just a little bit faster Gabriel. What am I going to do ! They KNOW they HAVE to perform that ritual, or I cannot save this dear little thing. Oops, there it goes to hell"

Num 1:2 Take ye the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, by their families, by their fathers' houses, according to the number of the names, every male, by their polls;
Num 1:3 from twenty years old and upward, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel, thou and Aaron shall number them by their hosts.

Well it looks like God is calling the sum (household) all those from twenty years old and upward.

God also says He never changes. He is still looking at those under 20 and children and not ready for war. Even spiritual war. So please do not worry about the babies, they are fine and safe in the hands of God.

Wet or dry.

C

 

[Cornelius]

Exo 30:14 Every one that passeth over unto them that are numbered, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the offering of Jehovah.

Exo 38:26 a beka a head, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that passed over to them that were numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.

Please notice that those UNDER 20, are excluded from the PUNISHMENT.


Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, that have murmured against me,

Believe me, these twenty year old were right in front when it came to the murmering. Anybody have teenagers here?

Num 26:2 Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, from twenty years old and upward, by their fathers' houses, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel.

Again, the SUM of the children of Israel excludes those under twenty.

There are more verses, but I think that proves the point. God makes a separation at twenty years old. He is not a monster, He is a good God and just. Anybody who thinks that He will send a baby to hell for not having had a few drops of water, have the wrong god in mind.

 

[Imagican]

Exo 30:14 Every one that passeth over unto them that are numbered, from twenty years old and upward, shall give the offering of Jehovah.

Exo 38:26 a beka a head, that is, half a shekel, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for every one that passed over to them that were numbered, from twenty years old and upward, for six hundred thousand and three thousand and five hundred and fifty men.

Please notice that those UNDER 20, are excluded from the PUNISHMENT.


Num 14:29 your dead bodies shall fall in this wilderness; and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, that have murmured against me,

Believe me, these twenty year old were right in front when it came to the murmering. Anybody have teenagers here?

Num 26:2 Take the sum of all the congregation of the children of Israel, from twenty years old and upward, by their fathers' houses, all that are able to go forth to war in Israel.

Again, the SUM of the children of Israel excludes those under twenty.

There are more verses, but I think that proves the point. God makes a separation at twenty years old. He is not a monster, He is a good God and just. Anybody who thinks that He will send a baby to hell for not having had a few drops of water, have the wrong god in mind.

C,

Thanks for this offering. It just goes to show that we were NEVER meant to be 'ignorant' of God's will. While I have always BELIEVED that there IS an 'age of accountability', I never caught these words that you have offered concerning the matter.

Christ took a child upon His knee and made a pretty profound statement to those around Him:

2And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,

3And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.

4Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.

5And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.

Now, if these words do not CLEARLY offer that children are NOT accountable so far as BELIEF is concerned, then I believe that NO WORDS could convey such a message.

For not ONLY is the inference MADE that children are EXEMPT from PARTICULAR beliefs, but it plainly offers that WE, (the adults), MUST be converted and BECOME as 'children' in order to inherit the kingdom of Heaven.

Read the words for YOURSELF and SEE what they offer.

Once understanding is acheived, THEN tell me that 'infant Baptism' has ANY effect. It is the ADULTS that NEED conversion, NOT children.

Blessings,

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

The problem is that some have been taught that a baby that dies without the drops of water on its head, is heading straight for hell.

Who teaches that?

 

[francisdesales]

Let me re-phrase...

Explain why one must repent before entering the Kingdom...

Is entering the Kingdom a work of man or God?

 

[francisdesales]

Heavy stuff for an infant to ponder, don't you think ?

This says it all, so I'll just address this...

You STILL believe you are saved by your own pondering, your own desires, your own repentance. This is not what being "born from above" is about.

Thus, you may cease and desist from speaking to me about "saved by grace", since clearly, you do not believe that. You are saved by yourself... YOUR pondering. YOUR desires. YOUR repentance.

You do not understand what Grace means, and all of this other stuff comes AFTER we receive God's gracious gift of salvation.

Regards

 

[MarkT]

It all presupposes that the child will grow up and make his confession and repent at a later date.

You don't understand what baptism is, do you...

It is a completely free gift that is not dependent upon anything the recipient does or does not do. We are talking about freedom from sin, something that man cannot do alone. We are talking about being born, something that we partake in, we don't enact it or hurry it along.

Note that not ONE PERSON baptizes themselves...

Infant baptism is the ultimate sign of God's gracious gift. Furthermore, it replaces circumcision, the ritual by which someone became a child of God. Infants were readily allowed into the People of God before Christ became incarnate, and certainly, afterwards, as well.

Baptism is effective, whether the person makes a confession of faith or not, since the person is born from above, not from his own statements. Baptism is made visible by the water, signifying what happens invisibly AND brings one, child or adult, into the Kingdom of God.

You have an interesting theory but I don't know if it is effective for infants as you say. According to Peter, baptism is an appeal for a clear conscience. But an infant would have no knowledge of sin. And I'm not sure if we can say if an infant even has a conscience. And Jesus was a man when he was baptized by John. Still it's an interesting theory. When Jesus came up out of the water, the heavens were opened and the Spirit of God descended like a dove and alighted on him. But this didn't happen to anyone else John baptized. I think you're saying as soon as you're baptized you are born anew? I don't know if I would agree with that statement. I think it would presuppose you believe Jesus is the Christ.

John baptized with water for repentance saying, 'Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand', and people came confessing their sins. So I think at some point the man who was baptized will make a confession and repent. I'm making a prophetic statement here. I'm saying this is what will happen and does happen.

Infant baptism isn't wrong. But it's the believing parent who makes it right. Believing parents, especially believing mothers, contribute greatly to the church. This is why Paul says women are saved by having children.

Believing parents do not bring "birth from above". God does and that's that. The parents promised to raise the children in the faith for the purpose of "making their election certain". However, they are elected visibly at the Baptismal rite and made part of the community without the child asking for it, just as the Jewish children did not ask to be circumcised.

Remember, Mary did believe what the angel of the LORD said to her would happen, and it did happen, and that's why she is called 'blessed'. I believe believing mothers give birth to believing sons, and the entire household is blessed. I don't think baptism is a sign like circumcision.

But do you believe John's baptism saved anyone? Or was he sent to prepare the 'way' of the LORD. I think it is the later.

John himself said the baptism that he conducted was different and inferior.

Ok

Confession and repentance that go with the ceremony prepare the 'way'. But even adult baptism presupposes that the man will read the Bible at a later date and that he will understand and so be baptized with fire.

Reading the Bible??? One doesn't need to be literate to enter the Kingdom or remain there. Can you point me to a verse that states one must read the Bible to enter the Kingdom?

You're absolutely right there francis. Many believe Jesus is the Christ and they are poor in spirit. Blessed are the poor in spirit! Maybe they can't read or they aren't educated. But they continue to believe, and God gives growth. They are blessed indeed! But at some point you have to believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that he was crucified and God raised him from the dead, and that belief comes by hearing the gospel, and that comes by reading the Bible - or it may come by hearing it from somebody.

But there are those who are called who are also chosen, and that's where the battle occurs - at the higher levels of understanding. This is where we contend with the powers and principalities.

 

[MarkT]

Confession and repentance is part of the work that comes once the walk begins. Often, they all come together, simultaneously. But it is not necessary. One doesn't have to confess their sins to THEN receive the Spirit of God. That would mean that you are born from below, rather than from above.

I think water baptism represents the new birth, but I don't think it creates the new wineskin. The new wineskin is created by the Word of God - Jesus Christ (actually the words or teachings of God). To receive the Spirit of God, the Word of God has to create a new wineskin. The new wineskin isn't flesh and blood. It is spirit. And it is born of water (not from water) and the Spirit.

 

[Cornelius]

Let me re-phrase...

Explain why one must repent before entering the Kingdom...

Is entering the Kingdom a work of man or God?

Ah, now we are getting to the real stuff behind.

First the meaning of the word :Repent. Simply put: it means "change your mind"

Here we can see it in the verse. God repents here. (He chances His mind)



Exodus 32:11-14
And Moses besought the LORD his God, and said, LORD, why doth thy wrath wax hot against thy people, which thou hast brought forth out of the land of Egypt with great power, and with a mighty hand? Wherefore should the Egyptians speak, and say, For mischief did he bring them out, to slay them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth? Turn from thy fierce wrath, and repent of this evil against thy people. Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever. And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.


So the basic and most simple answer to why you cannot enter into the Kingdom without repentance is that you first need a "mind change" before you can enter. You first have to come into line with the Word of God.

 

[Cornelius]

I think water baptism represents the new birth, but I don't think it creates the new wineskin. The new wineskin is created by the Word of God - Jesus Christ (actually the words or teachings of God). To receive the Spirit of God, the Word of God has to create a new wineskin. The new wineskin isn't flesh and blood. It is spirit. And it is born of water (not from water) and the Spirit.

I like your post