Infant Baptism Is Just As Valid As Adult Baptism

[Cornelius]

See, I was not Christian after I was baptized as an infant

Some people definitely are (I'm not trying to indicate you are really bad in comparison or something like that). Many of my friends could never tell you when they became Christian. They've just always believed as far back as they can remember.

I have always believed in God, I just did not walk with Him.

Christianity is not just about going to heaven. Christianity is mainly about is manifesting Christ on this earth. About bearing the fruit, which is Christ. Most do not know this and think that salvation is "fire-insurance" against hell.

Most religious systems are concerned only with "getting saved", with "going to heaven" where that was not God's plan in the beginning. Adam and Eve were not on their way to heaven. If they did not sin, they would now be 6000 years old and living on this planet in bliss and power, looking like the day they were created.

People think God has moved to "Plan B" now, well no, He is still in "Plan A".

God and ONLY God is infallible.

C

 

[Veritas]

I agree we are the body of Christ here on earth. I view it 50/50 though (I have to think about that one, I think I err more on salvation being the main point)

I guess what I meant by the fact that they always believed is that they were walking with Christ in one fashion or another as far back as they could remember. I'm in that boat as well. I stumble around a lot. I've fallen. I kinda rely on Christ to support me... to carry me.

 

[Cornelius]

I agree we are the body of Christ here on earth. I view it 50/50 though (I have to think about that one, I think I err more on salvation being the main point)

I guess what I meant by the fact that they always believed is that they were walking with Christ in one fashion or another as far back as they could remember. I'm in that boat as well. I stumble around a lot. I've fallen. I kinda rely on Christ to support me... to carry me.

Thank you for clarifying

I understand. I think a main point where most fall down , is when it comes to "rebirth" and "salvation" . People are confused about it. They are confused , because they seek that point of entry into the Kingdom so that they can safely say: "OK, NOW I am safe, because NOW I am saved" . That is SO understandable, because we want to survive and not be lost. Who can blame us for not wanting to go to hell !

But now, we are so looking for the "point of salvation" we have lost our focus on Jesus and the walk with Him, that causes salvation. We think rebirth belongs to only one day in our lives, instead of seeing it as an ongoing process of being born from above as we partake of the Word and that Word washes out minds (Be ye changed by the renewing of your minds)

Ultimately it is Jesus , Who is also the Word (John 1) who washes our souls with Himself (Word) and through this we are saved. As we are changed into His image.

Salvation is not a moment, it is a transformation.

First your spirit is reborn, then your soul..this takes the longest........and lastly God will change your body too.

Its a process that needs understanding and repentance , "changing our minds, so that they line up with the Word of God " = repentance. The Bible says " How shall two walk together lest they agree" and yet we think that we can walk with God without agreeing with His Word.

Its a process, as we eat His flesh and drink His blood (Eat the Word and receive the ZOE life in the Word......the life is in the blood (Lev) ) we are renewed and changed into His image, from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18)

Salvation is Christ. Salvation is Christ manifesting in you 30, 60 or a hundred fold (Matthew)

Its not a drop of water on a head of a child.

 

[francisdesales]

I agree we are the body of Christ here on earth. I view it 50/50 though (I have to think about that one, I think I err more on salvation being the main point)

I guess what I meant by the fact that they always believed is that they were walking with Christ in one fashion or another as far back as they could remember. I'm in that boat as well. I stumble around a lot. I've fallen. I kinda rely on Christ to support me... to carry me.

Thank you for clarifying

I understand. I think a main point where most fall down , is when it comes to "rebirth" and "salvation" . People are confused about it. They are confused , because they seek that point of entry into the Kingdom so that they can safely say: "OK, NOW I am safe, because NOW I am saved" . That is SO understandable, because we want to survive and not be lost. Who can blame us for not wanting to go to hell !

But now, we are so looking for the "point of salvation" we have lost our focus on Jesus and the walk with Him, that causes salvation. We think rebirth belongs to only one day in our lives, instead of seeing it as an ongoing process of being born from above as we partake of the Word and that Word washes out minds (Be ye changed by the renewing of your minds)

Ultimately it is Jesus , Who is also the Word (John 1) who washes our souls with Himself (Word) and through this we are saved. As we are changed into His image.

Salvation is not a moment, it is a transformation.

First your spirit is reborn, then your soul..this takes the longest........and lastly God will change your body too.

Its a process that needs understanding and repentance , "changing our minds, so that they line up with the Word of God " = repentance. The Bible says " How shall two walk together lest they agree" and yet we think that we can walk with God without agreeing with His Word.

Its a process, as we eat His flesh and drink His blood (Eat the Word and receive the ZOE life in the Word......the life is in the blood (Lev) ) we are renewed and changed into His image, from glory to glory (2 Cor 3:18)

Salvation is Christ. Salvation is Christ manifesting in you 30, 60 or a hundred fold (Matthew)

Its not a drop of water on a head of a child.

I will leave you with this suggestion...

Go to the Bible and find out the different ways "salvation" is used in the NT.

You will find I was saved (past tense)
I am being saved (present tense)
I will be saved (future tense)

Your theology only takes part of what Scriptures say into account.

Since you cannot show anything from Scriptures on the points I have brought up to discount my view, I'll presume that we are done and you are just arguing to argue.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

You will find I was saved (past tense)
I am being saved (present tense)
I will be saved (future tense)

Correct. So please let us not get stuck on the " I was saved" because you have to participate in all three to ultimately BE saved. You first have to believe (faith) that you were saved. (Past tense) This is something you alone can do and nobody can proxy it for you.

Then you start with "I am being saved" by renewing your mind with the Word

And if you run the race and you endure to the end, you will be saved.

1) We all come out of Egypt (were saved)

2) Now Egypt must come out of us (sanctification, separation from the world, renewing of the mind ) (Being saved)

And if you endure.........(shall be saved).


If you miss one of the above, you will not BE saved in the end.

.......................... *************************** ......................

Listen brother, I am not arguing here and I am really sorry if it looks like it, because I am sitting here in the peace of the Lord. I have no judgment in my heart towards you. I think partly it is because this medium (forum) is so slow, that we tend to misunderstand each other.Somehow people on a forum think that everybody out there must be angry or short tempered. Well, I am not. I am kind of peace loving , and slow to anger. I hate judging others and I love people.

Sometimes on forums, we perceive a strong view as anger. Sometime I know its true. People can loose it, but from my side..........I seldom loose it. I can tell you what I think, and I know that what I believe I believe strongly. As I am sure you do too. Well, somewhere , sometime, somebody will read this and it might answer a question for them.

I can tell you now: I will not convince you to change your view to mine. And you will not convince me to change mine to yours. So , lets keep that in mind, when we talk. We are merely sharing views from opposite sides of understanding and we do not have to get angry because the other is not seeing it "my way"

blessings
Cornelius

 

[francisdesales]

Correct. So please let us not get stuck on the " I was saved" because you have to participate in all three to ultimately BE saved. You first have to believe (faith) that you were saved. (Past tense) This is something you alone can do and nobody can proxy it for you.

You have not shown from Scriptures that this is true. I have given you numerous examples of God freely giving HIS gift to whomever He wills, to include people who didn't ask for it.

Until you can accept that God does such things, you will not comprehend the Apostolic teaching of infant baptism.

Then you start with "I am being saved" by renewing your mind with the Word

And if you run the race and you endure to the end, you will be saved.

From past conversations on the topic of "OSAS", I think we are on the same wavelength. My point is that sometimes, the Bible looks at salvation as a past event and sometimes as a future event. Thus, we shouldn't confuse the work of baptism to the work of "running the race". The later certainly DOES require the "work of man", if you will. As to baptism, the gift is offered, and we (or the proxy) accepts it.

Also, perhaps you are unaware, but in the Latin Catholic faith, we have what is called "Confirmation", which is a sacrament of initiation given to people of the age of reason. They "confirm" their baptismal promises and the proxy vows made in their name. If we were to collapse the two sacraments into one event, we'd have your event, I think.

The Latin Rite separates the two to more clearly show the different works of the two sacraments. One, baptism, expresses the Christological works - namely, the forgiveness of sins. Confirmation expresses the Phemualogical works - namely, receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to begin "making our election certain" - the walk.

1) We all come out of Egypt (were saved)

2) Now Egypt must come out of us (sanctification, separation from the world, renewing of the mind ) (Being saved)

And if you endure.........(shall be saved).

If you miss one of the above, you will not BE saved in the end.

Yes, I realize that, but you are speaking of "entering the promised Land" - heaven. When we are "saved" at baptism, we are speaking of being led out of Egypt, if you will. Freed from sin. But it doesn't follow that we won't return to sin - look at the Jews in the desert - and how many actually made it to the Promised Land. Thus, we don't confuse the two "salvations". Thus, the distinction should be made.

Listen brother, I am not arguing here and I am really sorry if it looks like it, because I am sitting here in the peace of the Lord. I have no judgment in my heart towards you. I think partly it is because this medium (forum) is so slow, that we tend to misunderstand each other.Somehow people on a forum think that everybody out there must be angry or short tempered. Well, I am not. I am kind of peace loving , and slow to anger. I hate judging others and I love people.

Sometimes on forums, we perceive a strong view as anger. Sometime I know its true. People can loose it, but from my side..........I seldom loose it. I can tell you what I think, and I know that what I believe I believe strongly. As I am sure you do too. Well, somewhere , sometime, somebody will read this and it might answer a question for them.

I can tell you now: I will not convince you to change your view to mine. And you will not convince me to change mine to yours. So , lets keep that in mind, when we talk. We are merely sharing views from opposite sides of understanding and we do not have to get angry because the other is not seeing it "my way"

That is a good background to have when communicating on these forums. I realize from experience that rarely will my interlocutor "change their mind". They may ignore my arguments or dwell on them later, but they will very rarely write back and say "by golly, you were right". It doesn't work that way. I think the lurkers have more to look through and digest here. They can make the decisions on what, in their mind, is the correct point. In reality, it is they for whom I write. I have been able to correct a false understanding that someone posted, but it won't make them change their general view of things. But the person on the other end whom I write to is usually not in a position to be open to another point of view. People don't "change" at that level through logical arguments and statements...

With that, I end this thread - feel free to give your last entry in response.

Regards

 

[Imagican]

Fran,

Let me see if this is what you are saying.

Are you telling us that Baptising an infant is able to SAVE THEM? That a 'man' is ABLE to sprinkle water on an ignorant child and that sprinkling is ABLE to 'save them'?

That is the MOST rediculous THING I have EVER heard concerning Christianity.

So, if this is the case, we NEED to kidnap ALL the muslims, have one of your buddies sprinkle some water on their heads and then EVERYTHING will Be 'alright'. Better yet, we could just get one of your buddies to BLESS a 'batch of water', fly it over to Iraq in a helicopter and just DUMP it on em. Just imagine a world FULL of such 'Christians'. Actually, we don't even HAVE to imagine........

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Drew]

God makes the offer , then He calls me through grace, then He allows me to say yes, then I repent through His grace, then He tells me to get baptized, then I start my walk

Can you actually justify this sequence? I can think of no texts that specifically place baptism after some kind of repentance.

In fact, I believe that New Testament accounts have people streaming for baptism as the first thing that they do.

Consider the overall structure of Romans 5 to 8. Paul is clearly telling the story of a new exodus.

In Romans 5, we have the cross, the story of how Jesus died for the world. Then in Romans 6, we immediately get baptism (evoking the Red Sea crossing):

What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer? 3Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? 4We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life

The point that is key is that Paul rather clearly places baptism prior to the "living of the new life" -which is clearly the substance of repentance. Paul first describes the act of baptism and then places repentance "after" that act - the ability to live a new life comes after baptism.

And while I will not fill out all elements of the Romans 5-8 analogy to the exodus, I will merely say that Romans 7 maps to the giving of the Law at Sinai while Romans 8 maps to the people of God being led by the pillar of fire and the cloud.

I am not sure how your picture can be reconciled with Paul's. You have the following sequence:

Call by God
Your acceptance
Repentance
Baptism
Your walk

By contrast, Paul has the following order:

Call by God
Your acceptance
Baptism
Repentance - we are baptised, Paul says, in order that we may live a new life.

 

[Drew]

Fran,

Let me see if this is what you are saying.

Are you telling us that Baptising an infant is able to SAVE THEM? That a 'man' is ABLE to sprinkle water on an ignorant child and that sprinkling is ABLE to 'save them'?

That is the MOST rediculous THING I have EVER heard concerning Christianity.

I do not wish to speak for FDS, but I'll bet dollars to donuts he has said no such thing.

Please be aware of the strawman. Those of us who support infant baptism are not, repeat not, saying that "sprinkling saves" - the person baptized needs to confess Jesus as Saviour and "live the life" to ultimately realize salvation. But God is at work in baptism - it is not merely a symbolic act. And therefore it is entirely appropriate to baptize infants. Just as the unconscious person undergoing surgery need not "understand" what is happening to benefit from the surgeon's skill, so the little infant need not know anything about the power of God in order for God to actually work through the baptism of that infant.

 

[Imagican]

So Drew,

Are you saying that God would NOT work in the LIFE of an infant that is NOT 'sprinkled'? How could the SPRINKLING differ ANY that the parents simply PRAYING for their child?

Blessings,

MEC

 

[Drew]

So Drew,

Are you saying that God would NOT work in the LIFE of an infant that is NOT 'sprinkled'? How could the SPRINKLING differ ANY that the parents simply PRAYING for their child?

Blessings,

MEC

No I am not saying this.

God commands us to be baptized. Since I think it is clear that, just as in the sacrament of communion, God is actually "at work" in baptism, I see no necessity to limit baptism to those who can "understand" what is going on. After all, God does not need us to understand what is going on in order to act in our lives.

So I am not saying that you must be baptized to have God work in your life. But why would you not do it, since we are commanded to be baptized?

 

[Cornelius]

Also, perhaps you are unaware, but in the Latin Catholic faith, we have what is called "Confirmation", which is a sacrament of initiation given to people of the age of reason. They "confirm" their baptismal promises and the proxy vows made in their name. If we were to collapse the two sacraments into one event, we'd have your event, I think.

I went through "confirmation" as well and I still went into the occult . In fact, while I went through confirmation, I knew more about witchcraft than Christianity. But I was one of the "top of the class" in confirmation. I practiced the occult, while I sat in church and after I was baptized as an infant and after and during confirmation.

All of it kept my parents happy. And the church was happy too. I was "saved" . I was part of the "elect" . In fact they believed that if you were born into the Reformed church and you were baptized, you were then part of the family of God. Sounds familiar ?

The Latin Rite separates the two to more clearly show the different works of the two sacraments. One, baptism, expresses the Christological works - namely, the forgiveness of sins. Confirmation expresses the Phemualogical works - namely, receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to begin "making our election certain" - the walk.

I called up demons after both of these rituals.



God called me after I was twenty years old. Through a woman who's father was also in the occult.
At that time, I could at times read minds , see into the future, can control people through my mind . Some people were scared of me, and I use to like the feeling of power. I was in the army and even the officers were careful around me.

This lady, told me about Jesus and she had a simple but devoted relationship with Him. After some time, God confronted me (the Bible calls it "apprehended" ) one night and I simply stopped under a tree and told Him if He wanted my life, He could have it.I was at the end of my energy for life by then. (long story) I was not "led" by anybody, it just happened and I remember the feeling when all my sin and burdens left, that very moment. I felt so clean and I heard music in the sky and all the trees looked washed and clean to me as well.I did not invite Jesus into my heart, I did not do the altar thing, I simply gave up and handed my life over to God.

Then that night, the demons attacked me in my bed and I did not know about spiritual warfare. I survived and next day burnt all my books on the occult. Soon after that I got baptized for real and started my walk. That was 30 years ago.

 

[Veritas]

So I am not saying that you must be baptized to have God work in your life. But why would you not do it, since we are commanded to be baptized?

This is how I feel about the matter as well.

 

[francisdesales]

Fran,

Let me see if this is what you are saying.

Are you telling us that Baptising an infant is able to SAVE THEM? That a 'man' is ABLE to sprinkle water on an ignorant child and that sprinkling is ABLE to 'save them'?

That is the MOST rediculous THING I have EVER heard concerning Christianity.

So, if this is the case, we NEED to kidnap ALL the muslims, have one of your buddies sprinkle some water on their heads and then EVERYTHING will Be 'alright'. Better yet, we could just get one of your buddies to BLESS a 'batch of water', fly it over to Iraq in a helicopter and just DUMP it on em. Just imagine a world FULL of such 'Christians'. Actually, we don't even HAVE to imagine........

Blessings,

MEC

More examples of what "spirit" leads you...

 

[francisdesales]

God called me after I was twenty years old. Through a woman who's father was also in the occult.
At that time, I could at times read minds , see into the future, can control people through my mind . Some people were scared of me, and I use to like the feeling of power. I was in the army and even the officers were careful around me.

This lady, told me about Jesus and she had a simple but devoted relationship with Him. After some time, God confronted me (the Bible calls it "apprehended" ) one night and I simply stopped under a tree and told Him if He wanted my life, He could have it.I was at the end of my energy for life by then. (long story) I was not "led" by anybody, it just happened and I remember the feeling when all my sin and burdens left, that very moment. I felt so clean and I heard music in the sky and all the trees looked washed and clean to me as well.I did not invite Jesus into my heart, I did not do the altar thing, I simply gave up and handed my life over to God.

Then that night, the demons attacked me in my bed and I did not know about spiritual warfare. I survived and next day burnt all my books on the occult. Soon after that I got baptized for real and started my walk. That was 30 years ago.

Thank you for your response and witness.

Again, my friend, you are confusing baptism with the walk that follows. The gift is given, but in some cases, it "sits in the closet for a long time" before one takes it up and "puts on the mind of Christ". However, the gift was indeed given - and it doesn't REQUIRE your request. In God's time, the seed planted by the Lord God Almighty sprouted and grew - triggering your RESPONSE to the gift once given. The walk of faith.

Regards

 

[francisdesales]

Please be aware of the strawman. Those of us who support infant baptism are not, repeat not, saying that "sprinkling saves" - the person baptized needs to confess Jesus as Saviour and "live the life" to ultimately realize salvation. But God is at work in baptism - it is not merely a symbolic act. And therefore it is entirely appropriate to baptize infants. Just as the unconscious person undergoing surgery need not "understand" what is happening to benefit from the surgeon's skill, so the little infant need not know anything about the power of God in order for God to actually work through the baptism of that infant.

You have correctly noted my intent and the analogy expresses what CAN happen in baptism... For some, the gift and response happens "simultaneously", as in adult baptism. But it is not necessary, as we are born from ABOVE, not by our own anything.

Regards

 

[Cornelius]

God called me after I was twenty years old. Through a woman who's father was also in the occult.
At that time, I could at times read minds , see into the future, can control people through my mind . Some people were scared of me, and I use to like the feeling of power. I was in the army and even the officers were careful around me.

This lady, told me about Jesus and she had a simple but devoted relationship with Him. After some time, God confronted me (the Bible calls it "apprehended" ) one night and I simply stopped under a tree and told Him if He wanted my life, He could have it.I was at the end of my energy for life by then. (long story) I was not "led" by anybody, it just happened and I remember the feeling when all my sin and burdens left, that very moment. I felt so clean and I heard music in the sky and all the trees looked washed and clean to me as well.I did not invite Jesus into my heart, I did not do the altar thing, I simply gave up and handed my life over to God.

Then that night, the demons attacked me in my bed and I did not know about spiritual warfare. I survived and next day burnt all my books on the occult. Soon after that I got baptized for real and started my walk. That was 30 years ago.

Thank you for your response and witness.

Again, my friend, you are confusing baptism with the walk that follows. The gift is given, but in some cases, it "sits in the closet for a long time" before one takes it up and "puts on the mind of Christ". However, the gift was indeed given - and it doesn't REQUIRE your request. In God's time, the seed planted by the Lord God Almighty sprouted and grew - triggering your RESPONSE to the gift once given. The walk of faith.

Regards

You know that sounds very nice and even right, but the moment we start looking for some evidence of what you have said , in the Bible: we find nothing.

No incident of a baptism of a child that were kept in "cold storage" until the day the child decides to walk the walk.

In very many cases, these infants who were baptized, never walk with God.

Some of my family (all of whom were baptized as infants) have died without God. Some of them even told my mother that she is driving my father away with her religion. Their "baptism" means nothing.

On the other hand: Those who have come to repentance and are obedient got baptized after coming to the Lord.

The do it in the Biblical order. 1) Repent and 2) be baptized.

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Drew]

You know that sounds very nice and even right, but the moment we start looking for some evidence of what you have said , in the Bible: we find nothing.

I have already shown that there is indeed such evidence - my recent post on the matter of Romans 6. You need to respond to that post if your position is to be sustained.

In very many cases, these infants who were baptized, never walk with God.

True enough. But, of course, this is not an argument that we should not baptize infants.

The do it in the Biblical order. 1) Repent and 2) be baptized.

Act 2:38 And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

No. I have already shown (Romans 6) that Paul understands that baptism precedes the "repentant new life".

I suspect that you are trying to read in a sequence to the statement "repent and be baptized". That is a very dodgy strategy, especially in light of the rather definitive material I have provided from Romans 6 which clearly places baptism prior to undertaking a path of repentance.

The fact that the Acts command is of the form "do A and B" does not justify a reading of "do A then B". We are simply told to do two things. Reading a temporal order into this is not really a legitimate move. I could say "take care of yourself and go the doctor" without intending the listener to understand that you only go to the doctor once you have "taken care of yourself".

 

[Drew]

Here is something that British theologian NT Wright has to say on the matter of baptizing infants:

Covenant theology certainly plays a role here, and I’m grateful you leave it that vague, because describing what covenant theology is and how it works would take too long right now! The cross-over from circumcision to baptism, as the people of God move from BC to AD, is significantly marked in e.g. Colossians 2, and though there are obvious differences (only males got circumcised, whereas females too get baptized, a point with resonances in Gal 3.27-28) there is a strong sense in the NT that God’s people in Christ are all, including children, to be marked with the covenant sign. This of course raises all kinds of other well known questions and problems, but actually granted the more or less universal practice of the church until comparatively modern times the real question ought to be, what is the biblical justification for NOT baptizing children? Baptism signifies membership in Christ... of course the follow-up question is always, how can children have the faith which is the sole badge of that membership, and part of my answer (only part, but it needs to be said) is that as a parent I know I can communicate with a tiny child, can give and receive love  and if God, the father of all, from whom all families take their name, cannot likewise give and receive love, then I am shocked and surprised. And how might God do that? Well, perhaps it might have something to do with bringing the child into the family of the church under the sign which speaks powerfully of the death and resurrection of Jesus...

 

[stranger]

Also, perhaps you are unaware, but in the Latin Catholic faith, we have what is called "Confirmation", which is a sacrament of initiation given to people of the age of reason. They "confirm" their baptismal promises and the proxy vows made in their name. If we were to collapse the two sacraments into one event, we'd have your event, I think.

I went through "confirmation" as well and I still went into the occult . In fact, while I went through confirmation, I knew more about witchcraft than Christianity. But I was one of the "top of the class" in confirmation. I practiced the occult, while I sat in church and after I was baptized as an infant and after and during confirmation.

All of it kept my parents happy. And the church was happy too. I was "saved" . I was part of the "elect" . In fact they believed that if you were born into the Reformed church and you were baptized, you were then part of the family of God. Sounds familiar ?

[quote:wc3dtdcw]The Latin Rite separates the two to more clearly show the different works of the two sacraments. One, baptism, expresses the Christological works - namely, the forgiveness of sins. Confirmation expresses the Phemualogical works - namely, receiving the gifts of the Holy Spirit and to begin "making our election certain" - the walk.

I called up demons after both of these rituals.



God called me after I was twenty years old. Through a woman who's father was also in the occult.
At that time, I could at times read minds , see into the future, can control people through my mind . Some people were scared of me, and I use to like the feeling of power. I was in the army and even the officers were careful around me.

This lady, told me about Jesus and she had a simple but devoted relationship with Him. After some time, God confronted me (the Bible calls it "apprehended" ) one night and I simply stopped under a tree and told Him if He wanted my life, He could have it.I was at the end of my energy for life by then. (long story) I was not "led" by anybody, it just happened and I remember the feeling when all my sin and burdens left, that very moment. I felt so clean and I heard music in the sky and all the trees looked washed and clean to me as well.I did not invite Jesus into my heart, I did not do the altar thing, I simply gave up and handed my life over to God.

Then that night, the demons attacked me in my bed and I did not know about spiritual warfare. I survived and next day burnt all my books on the occult. Soon after that I got baptized for real and started my walk. That was 30 years ago.[/quote:wc3dtdcw]

Hi Cornelius,

Not sure what statement you are making about the practise of baptism in the Church. Many folks have conversion testimonies and experiences that are similar to yours, from an occult background which the scriptures refer to as 'the deeper things of Satan.' Praise God that you burnt the occult books 30 years ago and started on the journey towards the new Jersusalem. I use the word started deliberately because neither your race nor mine is finished - not by a long shot. It's wonderful to start the race but it is infinitely preferrable to finish it.

blessings