Infant Baptism Is Just As Valid As Adult Baptism

[handy]

At my church, I'm really blessed to have two great scholars of the Word to teach us and preach to us. One of our pastors, Pastor Michael McCoy, has a great insight to something that I'm just beginning to get a grasp on. He teaches that we have a tendency to think of just what is physical as being "real". His point is that what is spiritual is just as real as what is physical. What happens to us physically during baptism is a physical reality. Water pours over us. We get wet. We are partaking in a physical and very real experience.

What happens spiritually during baptism is a spiritual reality. The spiritual reality is NOT less "real" because it is spiritual. In fact, the spiritual reality might be far, far more "real" than the physical reality.

The spiritual reality of baptism is that it is through our baptism that the old man dies, we are cleansed, and we are regenerated into new life in Christ. This is not just a symbolic act, it is an act in which the Spirit of God is working diligently in our hearts and doing things for us that are wholly necessary for us to be children of God.

Here are some scriptures to really study on this:

Romans 6:3-4 "Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life."

Again from Hebrews 10:19-23: "Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water. Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for He who promised is faithful;"

Ephesians 5:25-27 "just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless."

This might sound as if I'm going off topic, but bear with me here. The Calvinists believe that if God is sovereign then Christ could not have died for all men to be saved, because if that were the case, all men would be saved. Since we know that not all men will be saved, the Calvinist believes that Christ must not have died for those men who are not saved.

I don't agree with that (and won't debate it here, Limited Atonement would be a subject for a different thread). I do believe that Christ did indeed do exactly what He said He would do, die that all men could be saved. But, we know that His death on the cross does not save all men.

What makes Christ's death on the cross efficacious for salvation? I believe that the Scriptures teach us that it is the waters of baptism. Not the water itself, no, but as Paul put it to the Ephesians, "the washing of water with the word".

In Ephesians 4:4-5 we see that there is "There is one body and one Spirit, just as also you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism,"

There is the baptism of the Holy Spirit. However, water baptism is clearly taught as well. Either there is more than one baptism, or the baptism of the holy Spirit is intimately involved with our water baptism.

Since we know that water baptism is a washing, is it not clear that the "washing" that the Holy Spirit does for us is baptism as well? And, if there is but one baptism, then the work of the Spirit takes place during our water baptism.

Titus 3:5-6 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior,"

I know that many people would equate water baptism as a "work". Well, it is a work, but not a work that we do. We do not do the work of baptism. We simply obey our Lord and are baptized. But, the Holy Spirit is clearly working within "the washing of water with the word" during our baptism.

No, this is no symbolic act, nor is it a "dedication". Baptism is the means by which the Holy Spirit puts to death the old man and renews us in Christ Jesus.

 

[Cheyenne K]

:

I disagree. Infant baptism is no where near as valid as adult baptism. Adult baptism is a statement of faith that the person being baptized has accepted the Holy Spirit. That they are a new being in Christ. It is like washing away the old self. How can a baby do this with any understanding? If the baby has no understanding of this, why should we baptize it? Not only that, but how is the baby to be a new creature in Christ when it is a new creature period? Where is the shedding of the old life there? It makes no sense.

The baptism would be completely superficial and meaningless unless a baby has been baptized in the Holy Spirit first. Somehow, I doubt a baby has this ability given the understanding of small children, let alone infants. Dedications; sure, why not? But baptisms? Could infant baptism even be considered a "baptism" at all?

Also, from experience, I know a girl who was baptized as an infant. She is now a notheist. Bringing this up to her sister, her sister told her that she couldn't be a nontheist because she was baptized a Catholic as a baby. This girl now resents that because she has to deal with the protests of her family and her lack of free will in the matter.

If the Father is gracious enough to respect our free will, as Christians, should we not do the same?

And Paul would never have baptized someone if they had not accepted the Holy Spirit. Why should we?

 

[RobertMazar]

Baptism is hardly "just a dedication". Baptism is the way in which God does His cleansing work within us. To call it "just a dedication" seems to diminish baptism to just a technicality.

Baptism is something the Lord commanded and even participated in though He hardly had need of cleansing.

It's also rather presumptuous of us to think that, as long as something doesn't "save" us, it's unimportant. Obeying all of Christ's commands is of the utmost importance to all Christians. And, baptism is clearly a commandment.

Well I believe that Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus because it is more logical to believe that Baptism is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus then to believe that Baptism imparts salvation. And I believe that Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus so that I can retain the belief in Infant Baptism as well as Adult Baptism.

 

[RobertMazar]

:

I disagree. Infant baptism is no where near as valid as adult baptism. Adult baptism is a statement of faith that the person being baptized has accepted the Holy Spirit. That they are a new being in Christ. It is like washing away the old self. How can a baby do this with any understanding? If the baby has no understanding of this, why should we baptize it? Not only that, but how is the baby to be a new creature in Christ when it is a new creature period? Where is the shedding of the old life there? It makes no sense.

The baptism would be completely superficial and meaningless unless a baby has been baptized in the Holy Spirit first. Somehow, I doubt a baby has this ability given the understanding of small children, let alone infants. Dedications; sure, why not? But baptisms? Could infant baptism even be considered a "baptism" at all?

Also, from experience, I know a girl who was baptized as an infant. She is now a notheist. Bringing this up to her sister, her sister told her that she couldn't be a nontheist because she was baptized a Catholic as a baby. This girl now resents that because she has to deal with the protests of her family and her lack of free will in the matter.

If the Father is gracious enough to respect our free will, as Christians, should we not do the same?

And Paul would never have baptized someone if they had not accepted the Holy Spirit. Why should we?

Oh knock off this insanity. Infant Baptism is done in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit which is the formula that Jesus gave for Baptism and thus Infant Baptism is just as valid as Adult Baptism, but it is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus and does not impart salvation. That girl that you mentioned that became an atheist is obviously in league with Satan for giving up belief in Christ for atheism. What a total nut case that girl is.

 

[handy]

Cheyenne, you've brought up a lot of the issues I have with infant baptism. The whole point about baptism is that it is indeed a physical act that we are commanded to perform. I do believe that it is an important part of our regeneration as I believe that the Scriptures show that the Holy Spirit cleanses us and regenerates us via baptism. Since it is an act that we must participate in, it seems pretty logical that it is an act that we must truly participate in, not be a passive party to, as a baby would, just lying there in the arms.

While it is possible that infants can indeed be filled with the Spirit (as John the Baptist was in the womb) it certainly isn't the norm. Normally, babies are in a state of innocence (as Paul said, "I was once alive apart from the Law), but not a state of spiritual awareness.

But, then again, I don't know for sure. Circumcision was certainly for infants, and baptism does indeed take the place as the sign of the covenant. So, I can understand why some believe in baptizing infants.

RobertMazar said:

Well I believe that Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus because it is more logical to believe that Baptism is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus then to believe that Baptism imparts salvation. And I believe that Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus so that I can retain the belief in Infant Baptism as well as Adult Baptism.

Robert, Forgive me, but I have a hard time believing that you are seriously engaging the conversation here. It hardly matters what is "more logical", when the Scriptures are very clear that baptism is a vital act that our Lord commanded us to take part in, and that the Holy Spirit is very active during our baptism with the work of cleansing and regeneration. There is no Scriptural foundation for infant dedication, none, zip, zero. The closest thing to an infant dedication in the Scriptures is when Mary and Joseph presented Jesus in the temple as part of the Law requiring special sacrifices for the first born.

 

[Mysteryman]

Everyone has their own opinion on how and when and for which purpose. These opinions are just that , an opinion.

Why people want to get all wet, is not accurate for the grace dispensation !

Holy Spirit and fire is for the church !

 

[RobertMazar]

Isn't that what Catholics believe - that baptism does save a baby and prevents it from going to "Limbo", permitting it to go to heaven?

Well not all Catholics believe that Baptism imparts salvation. I am Catholic but naturally I do not believe that Baptism imparts salvation because I became Born Again during an Altar Call at my brothers Non Denominational Church by praying to Jesus and asking Him to become my Savior.

 

[francisdesales]

Well not all Catholics believe that Baptism imparts salvation. I am Catholic but naturally I do not believe that Baptism imparts salvation because I became Born Again during an Altar Call at my brothers Non Denominational Church by praying to Jesus and asking Him to become my Savior.

Yes, all Catholics believe that. Those who don't have excommunicated themselves from the community by default - since being Catholic actually means believing in the words of the Nicean Creed. As a community, we say, among other things...

"one baptism for the forgiveness of sins".

If you say that and don't believe it, you aren't Catholic.

Being forgiven of sins = being saved. If you have some other way of being saved then by being baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ, you cannot be a Catholic. We are saved by being united with the salvific work of Christ by baptism.

The Bible speaks nothing about "altar calls" as being salvific. sorry to burst your bubble, but God desires we come to the knowledge of the truth.

Regards

 

[Mysteryman]

What people need to try and understand, is the fact that water baptism by John the baptist, only occured during a short period of time within the gospels.

This was done to help fulfill the law. There was water cleansing during the law administration, and this law along with all the other laws of Moses needed to be fulfilled . Once a certain law was fulfilled,it was fulfilled, and there was not further need to continue this certain law of Moses, as it has been fulfilled.

The start of a new dispensation does not continue that which occured in the old dispensation. For instance, there is now a change of the law. We now live in the law of liberty, and not within the law of bondage. The law of Moses was the law of bondage. We have been made free of the law of bondage by the actions of Jesus Christ who fulfilled the law.

If one continues to do the law of bondage, they have fallen from grace.

We as Christians were (past tense) baptized into his death and shed blood, cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

There is no such thing as infant baptism verses its validity of adult baptism !

Those called of God have been (past tense) baptized into his death and shed blood. We have been called out (past tense) to be a part of the body of Christ and God places us in the body where it please him. No action on our part would or could influence God in any way. No action on our part in any way allows one any privilage or standard by which God in some way looks upon one differently who has been water baptized and one who has not been water baptrized !

God is the deciding factor ,and we are not told by God that we need in any way to perform some traditional ritual in order for God to accept us. This is a myth ! God also never told us , who are in the church (body of Christ) , that he desire us to be water baptized. Water cleansing was unto the Jews, not the Church !

In Christ - MM

 

[RobertMazar]

What people need to try and understand, is the fact that water baptism by John the baptist, only occured during a short period of time within the gospels.

This was done to help fulfill the law. There was water cleansing during the law administration, and this law along with all the other laws of Moses needed to be fulfilled . Once a certain law was fulfilled,it was fulfilled, and there was not further need to continue this certain law of Moses, as it has been fulfilled.

The start of a new dispensation does not continue that which occured in the old dispensation. For instance, there is now a change of the law. We now live in the law of liberty, and not within the law of bondage. The law of Moses was the law of bondage. We have been made free of the law of bondage by the actions of Jesus Christ who fulfilled the law.

If one continues to do the law of bondage, they have fallen from grace.

We as Christians were (past tense) baptized into his death and shed blood, cleansing us from all unrighteousness.

There is no such thing as infant baptism verses its validity of adult baptism !

Those called of God have been (past tense) baptized into his death and shed blood. We have been called out (past tense) to be a part of the body of Christ and God places us in the body where it please him. No action on our part would or could influence God in any way. No action on our part in any way allows one any privilage or standard by which God in some way looks upon one differently who has been water baptized and one who has not been water baptrized !

God is the deciding factor ,and we are not told by God that we need in any way to perform some traditional ritual in order for God to accept us. This is a myth ! God also never told us , who are in the church (body of Christ) , that he desire us to be water baptized. Water cleansing was unto the Jews, not the Church !

In Christ - MM

If Baptism does not impart salvation then the only logical belief to have concerning Baptism is that it is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus. What is somebody supposed to do if they are a member of a church that believes that Baptism imparts salvation and they cease to believe that Baptism imparts salvation?

 

[Ron]

For one Baptism does not save you at all. ;)

to be Baptised the person being baptised MUST believe (not the parents):

Mark 16:16 (ASV)
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that disbelieveth shall be condemned.

How could a infant believe:

 

[francisdesales]

If Baptism does not impart salvation then the only logical belief to have concerning Baptism is that it is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus. What is somebody supposed to do if they are a member of a church that believes that Baptism imparts salvation and they cease to believe that Baptism imparts salvation?

Whether Baptism imparts salvation is dependent upon God, not your current opinion. Is being born from above years ago dependent upon your current opinions?

Regards

 

[RobertMazar]

Yes, all Catholics believe that. Those who don't have excommunicated themselves from the community by default - since being Catholic actually means believing in the words of the Nicean Creed. As a community, we say, among other things...

"one baptism for the forgiveness of sins".

If you say that and don't believe it, you aren't Catholic.

Being forgiven of sins = being saved. If you have some other way of being saved then by being baptized into the death and resurrection of Christ, you cannot be a Catholic. We are saved by being united with the salvific work of Christ by baptism.

The Bible speaks nothing about "altar calls" as being salvific. sorry to burst your bubble, but God desires we come to the knowledge of the truth.

Regards

I was Baptized Catholic, I attend and belong to the Catholic Church, I do not attend and belong to any Protestant Church and therefore I am Catholic and not Protestant. And I have not been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as somebody excommunicating themselves. The only excommunication that counts is official excommunication. Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The Good Thief on the Cross was not Baptized and yet Jesus told him "THIS DAY THOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN PARADISE". There is only one way of being saved and that is to receive Jesus as ones Personal Savior by praying to Him and asking Him to become ones Savior. That is basically what it states in Romans 10:9.

 

[francisdesales]

I was Baptized Catholic, I attend and belong to the Catholic Church, I do not attend and belong to any Protestant Church and therefore I am Catholic and not Protestant. And I have not been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as somebody excommunicating themselves. The only excommunication that counts is official excommunication. Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation. The Good Thief on the Cross was not Baptized and yet Jesus told him "THIS DAY THOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN PARADISE". There is only one way of being saved and that is to receive Jesus as ones Personal Savior by praying to Him and asking Him to become ones Savior. That is basically what it states in Romans 10:9.

You are mistaken, Robert, on all counts.

First of all, directly opposing official dogmatic teachings of the Church and willfully doing so is de facto self-excommunication. Excommunication does not require a formal command from your pastor, as those who think abortion is OK are doing the same thing, according to a variety of Church documents. You and abortionists who "CALL" themselves "Catholic" no longer REALLY believe that Christ instituted a community of people that He would ensure would be the "pillar and foundation of the Truth". Thus, versus this divinely appointed and protected Body of Christ, you tell us something different. Please point me to a Scripture that tells me we are supposed to ignore the pillar and foundation of the truth because "WE KNOW BETTER"...

Secondly, the Thief on the Cross did not need to be baptized for two reasons. First, he was still part of the Old Covenant and that demand is not placed on anyone in the Old Covenant. Secondly, one could consider the Thief's actions as a "baptism by desire". Your catechism (if you still claim to be Catholic) will explain this.

And finally, merely saying words does not mean anything. Read Matthew 7:21.

Regards

 

[dadof10]

Well not all Catholics believe that Baptism imparts salvation.

Yes we do. That water baptism saves is one of the Traditions (capital T) that define Catholics. This dogma is revealed Truth and, as such must be held to be in union with the Catholic Church. I can give you the quotes from the Catechism, if you want?

I am Catholic but naturally I do not believe that Baptism imparts salvation because I became Born Again during an Altar Call at my brothers Non Denominational Church by praying to Jesus and asking Him to become my Savior.

Why "naturally"? It is UNNATURAL for a Catholic to believe that baptism DOESN'T save.

If you were "born again" at a non-denominational church, wouldn't that make you Protestant? In what way do you consider yourself Catholic?

 

[dadof10]

I was Baptized Catholic, I attend and belong to the Catholic Church, I do not attend and belong to any Protestant Church and therefore I am Catholic and not Protestant.

Do you actually believe what the ROMAN Catholic Church teaches, or just "attend" the building? Could you give me some specifically Catholic doctrines that you hold?

And I have not been excommunicated from the Catholic Church. There is no such thing as somebody excommunicating themselves. The only excommunication that counts is official excommunication.

That's absolutely false. When a person holds heretical doctrine (like "Baptism is totally superfluous to salvation") that person has excommunicated himself. I'll ask again, do you want me to quote the Catechism on this topic?

The Good Thief on the Cross was not Baptized and yet Jesus told him "THIS DAY THOU SHALT BE WITH ME IN PARADISE". There is only one way of being saved and that is to receive Jesus as ones Personal Savior by praying to Him and asking Him to become ones Savior. That is basically what it states in Romans 10:9.

Humm....And your CATHOLIC, you say....Roman Catholic or (small c) catholic, meaning Protestant-who-plays-word-games?

 

[dadof10]

"For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; 19 in which he went and preached to the spirits in prison, 20 who formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, during the building of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were saved through water.
21 Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at the right hand of God, with angels, authorities, and powers subject to him." (1Peter (RSV) 3)

Water baptism saves.

 

[chestertonrules]

Infant Baptism is just as valid as Adult Baptism because it is also administered in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit(Which is the formula that Jesus prescribed for administering Baptism). Baptism of infants and adults is just a dedication of infants and adults to Jesus and thus is totally superfluous to salvation. So what difference does it make if infants are Baptized?

The power of baptism comes from God, not from the person being baptized, so I completely agree with your overall point.

Baptism conveys grace.

 

[francisdesales]

The power of baptism comes from God, not from the person being baptized, so I completely agree with your overall point.

Baptism conveys grace.

Chestertonrules,

Good to see you are here again...

Note this "Catholic" thinks baptism does NOT convey grace. To him, it is a "dedication", sort of like John the Baptist's baptisms. His point that "infants and adults can be baptized" rests on the fact that baptism doesn't matter...

Regards

 

[chestertonrules]

Chestertonrules,

Good to see you are here again...

Note this "Catholic" thinks baptism does NOT convey grace. To him, it is a "dedication", sort of like John the Baptist's baptisms. His point that "infants and adults can be baptized" rests on the fact that baptism doesn't matter...

Regards

He must be part of that new eastern Wyoming Catholic movement.