Infant Baptism

[Orthodoxy]

How you get "force salvation on your children by baptising them so they dont' have a choice" from those scriptures will forever remain a mystery to me. They say nothing of the sort. But then I suppose we could twist scripture around to say anything we want can't we?

Jesus said, "dont deny the Children from coming to Me". If you cannot understand that message what can I say to you that could possibly explain how Jesus feels about children.

Acts2:38

Then Peter said unto them, [Repent, and be baptized every one of you /color]in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the LORD our God shall call.

40And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.

"Every one of you" are you now adding a disclaimer to the bible which says "Every one of you" except for your babies and toddlers that cannot make a choice for Jesus Christ as Lord"? It would appear you are adding to the Scripture and subtracting from the Kingdom of God.

"you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off" you have changed to say "to your children except your infants and toddlers that cannot make a choice for Jesus Christ as Lord"?

"All that are far off" you have changed to "All that are far off except infants, toddlers, and all those that cannot make a choice for Jesus Christ as Lord"?

What does the bible say about those that add and subtract to the gospel of Jesus Christ?

Do you hate children because of Peter or because Peter was a roman catholic?

Do you think children below the age of accountability are sub human?

Are you a pro abortion advocate?

Can you show me one scripture where Jesus Christ is seen denying the children?

Why does the protestant reformation deny the children?

Save yourselves? How? By the discription just discribed by Peter, Repent, and be baptized every one of you .

No additions no subtractions.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

"dont deny the Children from coming to Me".

But are they coming to Christ on their own? No!!!!

I will not deny my children coming to Christ...my eldest is 8 years old and I would never EVER stand between her and God. But when she was a little baby she was not even old enough to understand Christ - let alone come to him. If she was able to come to him as a baby then I would not have denied her - but she was not able! And I will not FORCE my children to come to God...I believe God wants us to come to him by our own desire and choice.

 

[Orthodoxy]

"dont deny the Children from coming to Me".

But are they coming to Christ on their own? No!!!!

I will not deny my children coming to Christ...my eldest is 8 years old and I would never EVER stand between her and God. But when she was a little baby she was not even old enough to understand Christ - let alone come to him. If she was able to come to him as a baby then I would not have denied her - but she was not able! And I will not FORCE my children to come to God...I believe God wants us to come to him by our own desire and choice.

Ephesians 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

I cannot speak for mothers but as a "father" I am commanded to bring my children "up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord". No place does it specifiy an age or ability to "make a choice in the child. No, from the very get go as a "father" I am commanded to bring my children up in the ways of the Lord. How dare you insist "fathers" break the commands plainly written in the bible. Do you even believe the bible?

Maybe this is why Apostle Paul was speaking to Fathers and not Mothers in this command. With women it is all about "feelings" and "rights". Sorry this "father" takes his responsibilty seriously. As for me and my house we will serve the Lord. What you do with your children is your choice. Lord have mercy.

In Christ,

Orthodoxy

 

[Merry Menagerie]

I bring my childre up that way too. But I will NEVER make the decision to come to Christ for them. I'll guide them in that direction and I will open the way for them and introduce it to them but I cannot make the decision for them. Adn I won't. No where in the bible does it say to baptise your children so I'm pretty safe.

 

[stovebolts]

We are told God is merciful and long suffering with all men. Jesus said one must become like a child to enter the Kingdom of God. Certainly the Child has paid the wages and God's mercy will allow a Child to inherit the Kingdom baptised in the sea of tears cast forth by the saints.

Amen.

I bring my childre up that way too. But I will NEVER make the decision to come to Christ for them. I'll guide them in that direction and I will open the way for them and introduce it to them but I cannot make the decision for them. Adn I won't. No where in the bible does it say to baptise your children so I'm pretty safe.

Merry,
It has been said that it takes a village to raise a child, not a mother, not a father, but a village. Within that village, the Mother and the Father both have a vital function.
As Christians, we are commanded to bring our children up seeking the Lord, so you see Merry, it is their "Choice", but it is our "Decision". As for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Merry,
It has been said that it takes a village to raise a child, not a mother, not a father, but a village. Within that village, the Mother and the Father both have a vital function.
As Christians, we are commanded to bring our children up seeking the Lord, so you see Merry, it is their "Choice", but it is our "Decision". As for me and my family, we will serve the Lord.

That's nice. I will too..yay for me. But I will not baptise them against their will without them being able to repent and believe on their own and have a good conscience before God. It would be an empty baptism because it would mean nothing to the child.

I was baptised at the age of 10 years old and it was my decision to do so..I'm glad I was able to make it and actually make a vow to my Lord on my own. The day my children come to me, to say that they want to be baptised or whatever is the day that they will be baptise - I will not stop my children from coming to Christ and I will not MAKE them either.

End of Story!!

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Hi Merry,

I agree with you. Baptism in water doesn't save *anyone*. You don't get your born again experience through water baptism.

I then take this idea a step further. Being born again doesn't "save you" either. Born again is one step further down the road but it is not "the step". Once you have your salvation you must do something with it.

From God's point of view it is a done deal. From our point of view we are walking towards our salvation, day by day, only IF we are walking in the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Thus being, "born again" but living after the flesh, provides you with little hope for salvation! You must do something with it, by the Spirit put to death the works of the flesh it says.

Water isn't salvation! Born again isn't salvation. Dying in the Faith is salvation!

As for children, I believe accountability to Christ is the issue that confronts them. To put it another way, the guarenteed way of going to hell is a knowing, conscious, willful and continual rejection of God. There's a point where a child becomes an adult and is then accountable for his own decision. Another way as written above by Paul, "living after the flesh" is what is going to end you up in a condition of corruption or death.

As for commenting on being a parent, I'm not one thus can say nothing. I would agree with you insamuch I would not force religion on them; I believe this could pose a risk of sparking off a later rebellion. This is what happened in my father's life. Our society no longer demands conformity of religion thus bringing people up into strict traditions no longer helps them, if it ever really did except mess up their heads for life. The moment they get a whiff off freedom, they're off to whatever's going on in the world, only to happy to discard the kind of severity that can be imposed on them. But, in today's world, I imagine, I would rather hope to live as a Christian and be an example to them and along the way sow seeds which may serve to encourage them or equip them later in life.

 

[Orthodoxy]

Question:

Can you worship an infant as God in the flesh sitting in the throne of His mother's lap?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

TheScarletPimpernel,

As for children, I believe accountability to Christ is the issue that confronts them. To put it another way, the guarenteed way of going to hell is a knowing, conscious, willful and continual rejection of God.

Every child that has not made this "choice for Jesus Christ" are "unsaved"?
Is there any way to save a child before this "age of accountability. Please save the personal opinions and give me credible evidance children are not saved until they "believe" by "confession" at the "age of accountability".

There's a point where a child becomes an adult and is then accountable for his own decision. Another way as written above by Paul, "living after the flesh" is what is going to end you up in a condition of corruption or death.

Can you show me one Scripture where Jesus Christ the Lord God said "become as adults and you will inherit the Kingdom of God"?

As for commenting on being a parent, I'm not one thus can say nothing. I would agree with you insamuch I would not force religion on them;

But you force an infant to eat, interesting.

I believe this could pose a risk of sparking off a later rebellion.

Some where in the holy writ it states "raise a child in the fear of the Lord and he will return to the faith of his youth". How is this possible if we just get our 7 year olds "saved" then let them fend for themselves on what to believe as a "christian". Is that holding fast to the faith delievered by allowing our children to "have jesus their way"? Are you going to tell me protestant parents are not raising their children under the bias of thier understanding of the "christian faith"? I find the idea parents do not raise their children under the umbrella of their own understanding of the Christian faith hypocritical at best or a flat out fabrication at worst.

This is what happened in my father's life. Our society no longer demands conformity of religion thus bringing people up into strict traditions no longer helps them, if it ever really did except mess up their heads for life. The moment they get a whiff off freedom, they're off to whatever's going on in the world, only to happy to discard the kind of severity that can be imposed on them. But, in today's world, I imagine, I would rather hope to live as a Christian and be an example to them and along the way sow seeds which may serve to encourage them or equip them later in life

I wont comment on dear ol dad but I know many older orthodox Christians that were baptised as infants and thank God for it because it gave them the rock to build a solid christian faith.

Are you saying "protestants" dont fall away?

Protestants in America are not intoxicated on the "whiff off freedom, they're off to whatever's going on in the world"?

Is this not the epitomy of American Christianity with the fish on the fanny of their SUV's? Please enter reality, TheScarletPimpernel.

Orthodoxy

 

[TheScarletPimpernel]

Every child that has not made this "choice for Jesus Christ" are "unsaved"?
Is there any way to save a child before this "age of accountability. Please save the personal opinions and give me credible evidance children are not saved until they "believe" by "confession" at the "age of accountability".

That is NOT what I said. I said they are not accountable to a decision for CHRIST until they are able to make it. I do not believe that GOD sends children to hell.

 

[Merry Menagerie]

Me either!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Heidi]

Only those who were chosen before the creation of the world will be saved. The key is that none of us knows if we are called or not so we are totally accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs. Salvation is therefore open to all. Only God knows what will bring his children to him and he allows circumstances in our lives to allow give us the desire for him. But he is in total control of the universe and whom he chooses. "No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

 

[Orthodoxy]

Every child that has not made this "choice for Jesus Christ" are "unsaved"?
Is there any way to save a child before this "age of accountability. Please save the personal opinions and give me credible evidance children are not saved until they "believe" by "confession" at the "age of accountability".

That is NOT what I said. I said they are not accountable to a decision for CHRIST until they are able to make it. I do not believe that GOD sends children to hell.

I see. If what you say is truth then God holds a different standard for infants and children in the saying "the wages of sin is death" and "all fall short of the glory" than for adults.

What it appears we have is grace saves children but grace plus knowledge saves an adult. Why are you adding the ability to make "a decision for CHRIST" to the work of Grace?

It appears to me "a decision for CHRIST" under your doctrine is a work.

God has a different standard for those unable to make "a decision for CHRIST" and those that are able? Interesting Children are saved without any "believe' what so ever. What happened to "believe to be saved" and where are children excluded from this in your doctrine, scripturally?

Orthodoxy

 

[Orthodoxy]

Only those who were chosen before the creation of the world will be saved. The key is that none of us knows if we are called or not so we are totally accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs. Salvation is therefore open to all. Only God knows what will bring his children to him and he allows circumstances in our lives to allow give us the desire for him. But he is in total control of the universe and whom he chooses. "No one knows the Son except the Father and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."

So it is Jesus Christ that reveals the Father, not you. Interesting.

Did you know much of Calvins predestination teachings came from the Islamic bible called the Quran? These verses are just a few Calvin gleened his damnable heresy of predestination from:

Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, -- Sura 14:4

He punishes whom He pleases, and He grants mercy to whom He pleases,-- Sura 29:21

But I digress, If God's will is none be lost then are you advocating "apokatastasis" the general restoration of all fallen creation?

Is salvation really the crap shoot you are portraying?

Maybe God tosses everyone in hell, the chaff is burned off, then everyone is saved by what every is left over that resembles "works unto salvation"?

You dont know your saved in this statement:

"none of us knows if we are called or not so we are totally accountable for our actions, attitudes, and beliefs".

Yet "But he is in total control of the universe and whom he chooses."

I guess you just assume your one of the saved to think yourself as saved. It also appears one could be sorely mistaken in "their actions, attitudes, and beliefs" thinking themselves wise and miss the "boat" all together in their foolishness of leaning on owns own understanding.

You have an interesting double minded spin on the Christian faith to say the least.

Orthodoxy