Infinite Nature of Sin and Hell

[belovedwolfofgod]

So, due to my extreme ADD, I had posted in the Annihilation v. Hell thread and a number of people responded to my comments and I never got around to defending them. So, for BradtheImpaler and DivineNames, I spent the day creating this post. Its a little long, but I tried to respond to both of you.

Sin has an infinite nature. Should you strike someone who is equal to you, you get in trouble. Should you strike someone like the president of the United States, you get shot. A sin is an offense against an infinite being. A sin offends a being who is infinite in majesty and power, and as such, the punishment can be in a certain respect, infinite. The greater the person you offend, the greater the punishment the offense entails. We are finite in substance, but we are infinite in duration. Our souls were made to last forever. This means we cant be punished with infinite intensity, because as finite in substance, we couldn’t handle it. But we can be punished for eternity because we last that long.

The soul is incorruptible, but only in the sense that it will exist forever, not necessarily that it will be alive in the sense of what alive is. We can exist and yet be dead. Matter is created and will pass away. The body was created out of matter (the dust). But when God created the soul, He breathed life into it. So our souls contain something of God. God is incorruptible and will last forever. So will our souls. This incorruptible substance (soul) is a huge part of what makes us in the image of God.

As I said in an earlier thread, people must choose, to a large extent, to go to hell. Their desires for created things exceeds that of the desire for their Creator. Because the Creator is loving, He allows his creation to make this choice. Hell is punishment, but contains two types of punishment: Punishment of loss, and corporeal punishment. This choosing something other than God and His allowing of a soul to persist in it is the punishment of loss. They lose the Beatific Vision. Man’s ultimate end is the unobstructed view of God (Beatific Vision). However, nothing reaches its end unless it performs the duties proper to it. An employee doesn’t receive a promotion unless he performs his job well. Man pursues his own personal end. Now, his end can be the true ultimate end of man (Beatific Vision), or it can be something else because of his choice. If he pursues and persists in virtue, he obtains his true ultimate end. If he pursues and persists in vice, he obtains his personal ultimate end. Because he pursued something other than God, such as a base desire, that is what he will obtain. For a nonbeliever, a man who lives for himself will ultimately receive himself. But we cannot save ourselves and so this would not help him in the least. But a man who pursues virtue, which is acting for some good outside of himself or his selfish desires, he finds God. God has always received sacrifice, however, he is pleased most by self sacrifice and a contrite spirit.

Now, why is eternal damnation just? We exist in time. Time is used for us to make a choice: choose God, choose something else. The angels were offered one choice, that was to serve God or not. They made their choice and now must live with that choice for eternity. Contrary causes beget contrary effects. Malice is contrary to virtue and goodness and virtue is contrary to evil. So if there is a final goodness, then there must be a final evil, hell. Hell is just because the person in effect chose it. God’s law is “written on our hearts†so we can act in virtue or evil. Furthermore, people in hell are not devoid of free choice, just as people who are in heaven are not devoid of it. God would not give a gift like that then take it away. The catch is that the wills of the people in hell are attached immovably to evil, while the wills of those in heaven are attached immovably to God. So the people in hell, by their actions on earth expressed where they would like to be and what they were to attach their will to. The persisted obstinately until death. After death, time ceases and eternity takes over. Essentially, time is a measure of change. There is no change after death. You go where you go. Ecclesiastes 11:3 “If the tree fall to the south or to the north, in what place soever it shall fall, there shall it be.†So the person obstinately chooses evil all throughout eternity, and is rightly punished for it throughout eternity. They are unable to choose good because their intellects are darkened because they completely lack the Beatific Vision, whereas the people in heaven will never choose evil because they see God and see evil for what is truly is.

 

[BradtheImpaler]

Wolfman :wink:,

I will respond to your first section because there is no need to go any farther to realize that, if what you say is true, mankind is the victim of an incredible injustice...

Sin has an infinite nature. Should you strike someone who is equal to you, you get in trouble. Should you strike someone like the president of the United States, you get shot

You may get shot at the point of striking the President because of the reaction of his bodyguards - you're not going to get the death penalty for it at a trial however.

A sin is an offense against an infinite being. A sin offends a being who is infinite in majesty and power, and as such, the punishment can be in a certain respect, infinite. The greater the person you offend, the greater the punishment the offense entails

Such a scenario would be "infinitely" unjust. Is it our fault that God is "infinite" and we are not? Is it our fault that we are not even capable of keeping His laws? What it boils down to is that we are punished because God is "infinite in majesty and power". Think it through.

We are finite in substance, but we are infinite in duration. Our souls were made to last forever. This means we cant be punished with infinite intensity, because as finite in substance, we couldn’t handle it. But we can be punished for eternity because we last that long

Again, assuming we are "infinite in duration", why would a loving God create us as such when He knew that most of us were going to end up in eternal torment? Wolfman, even you and I would have far more compassion than to conceive and institute such a horrendous situation :evil:

Why is it Christians get so "technical" when attempting to defend the judgement presented in the gospel? Look at what you're saying from the standpoint of mercy and try to defend what you believe the state of affairs is.

 

[Guest]

Sin has an infinite nature. Should you strike someone who is equal to you, you get in trouble. Should you strike someone like the president of the United States, you get shot. A sin is an offense against an infinite being. A sin offends a being who is infinite in majesty and power, and as such, the punishment can be in a certain respect, infinite.

Non-sequitur. Why should an offense against an infinite being necessarily mean that the punishment must also be infinite? This does not follow logically. Please provide evidence.

The greater the person you offend, the greater the punishment the offense entails.

Says who? Please provide evidence - this is another non-sequitur. If I shot my next door neighbor, how would my prison time be any different than if I shot the mayor? Our judicial system does not permit it. The same should be true of any 'infinite being'.

We are finite in substance, but we are infinite in duration. Our souls were made to last forever. This means we cant be punished with infinite intensity, because as finite in substance, we couldn’t handle it. But we can be punished for eternity because we last that long.

What claptrap. Look up 'doublespeak' in the dictionary.

The soul is incorruptible, but only in the sense that it will exist forever, not necessarily that it will be alive in the sense of what alive is. We can exist and yet be dead. Matter is created and will pass away.

Incorrect. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.

The body was created out of matter (the dust). But when God created the soul, He breathed life into it. So our souls contain something of God. God is incorruptible and will last forever. So will our souls. This incorruptible substance (soul) is a huge part of what makes us in the image of God.

Yet another non-sequitur. Please provide evidence that something created by your god contains a part of god. If I put together a paper airplane, what 'part' of me is contained within the plane?

As I said in an earlier thread, people must choose, to a large extent, to go to hell. Their desires for created things exceeds that of the desire for their Creator.

I am an atheist, yet I do not desire things much different than you do. I desire happiness, justice, laughter, freedom, and peace. But these desires are a 'choice' on my part to go to hell, according to you. I question your god's sanity.

Because the Creator is loving, He allows his creation to make this choice. Hell is punishment, but contains two types of punishment: Punishment of loss, and corporeal punishment. This choosing something other than God and His allowing of a soul to persist in it is the punishment of loss. They lose the Beatific Vision. Man’s ultimate end is the unobstructed view of God (Beatific Vision). However, nothing reaches its end unless it performs the duties proper to it. An employee doesn’t receive a promotion unless he performs his job well. Man pursues his own personal end. Now, his end can be the true ultimate end of man (Beatific Vision), or it can be something else because of his choice. If he pursues and persists in virtue, he obtains his true ultimate end. If he pursues and persists in vice, he obtains his personal ultimate end. Because he pursued something other than God, such as a base desire, that is what he will obtain.

More doublespeak.

For a nonbeliever, a man who lives for himself will ultimately receive himself.

So all nonbelievers live for themselves? How narrow-minded and childish of you.

But we cannot save ourselves and so this would not help him in the least. But a man who pursues virtue, which is acting for some good outside of himself or his selfish desires, he finds God. God has always received sacrifice, however, he is pleased most by self sacrifice and a contrite spirit.

So all virtuous men find your god? This is demonstrably and completely untrue. Some virtuous men find Vishnu, or Allah, or Thor. Some virtuous men live their entire lives without 'finding' any god. Your god is therefore unnecessary for billions of people.

Now, why is eternal damnation just? We exist in time. Time is used for us to make a choice: choose God, choose something else. The angels were offered one choice, that was to serve God or not. They made their choice and now must live with that choice for eternity. Contrary causes beget contrary effects. Malice is contrary to virtue and goodness and virtue is contrary to evil. So if there is a final goodness, then there must be a final evil, hell. Hell is just because the person in effect chose it. God’s law is “written on our hearts†so we can act in virtue or evil. Furthermore, people in hell are not devoid of free choice, just as people who are in heaven are not devoid of it. God would not give a gift like that then take it away. The catch is that the wills of the people in hell are attached immovably to evil, while the wills of those in heaven are attached immovably to God. So the people in hell, by their actions on earth expressed where they would like to be and what they were to attach their will to. The persisted obstinately until death. After death, time ceases and eternity takes over. Essentially, time is a measure of change. There is no change after death. You go where you go. Ecclesiastes 11:3 “If the tree fall to the south or to the north, in what place soever it shall fall, there shall it be.†So the person obstinately chooses evil all throughout eternity, and is rightly punished for it throughout eternity. They are unable to choose good because their intellects are darkened because they completely lack the Beatific Vision, whereas the people in heaven will never choose evil because they see God and see evil for what is truly is.

The doublespeak is so incredibly thick here, it's unbelievable. I'm shocked at how far you twist your beliefs around to force them to fit a silly, outdated worldview. This gem was particularly outrageous:

After death, time ceases and eternity takes over.

You really believe this?

 

[Gendou Ikari]

I have never seen one argument for Eternal Damnation that has mercy in it. THAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS NONE! The only thing that Christian Fundamentalists could come up with is that God is Just. In other words they are really saying that, God is selfish and only wants to do what is best for Him.

I am not an Atheist. I believe in God and Jesus Christ as my Savior but I refuse to believe in this Evil of a god that Christian Fundamentalists have created. A GOD OF HATE! Consider this statement.

They say that when god was in Jerusalem he forgave his murderers, but now he will not forgive an honest man for differing with him on the subject of the Trinity. They say that God says to me, "Forgive your enemies." I say, "I do;" but he says, "I will damn mine." God should be consistent. If he wants me to forgive my enemies he should forgive his. I am asked to forgive enemies who can hurt me. God is only asked to forgive enemies who cannot hurt him. He certainly ought to be as generous as he asks us to be. - Robert Ingersoll

How about a statement from the Great Philosopher Immanuel Kant.

Why were a few, or a single one, made at all, if only to exist in order to be made eternally miserable, which is infinitely worse than non-existence? –Immanuel Kant, “End of All Thingsâ€Â

Salvation is universal because the love of God encompasses all. If God is God and if God is love, nothing is outside the love of God. A place like hell is thus inconceivable. --Jacques Ellul

According to Christianity, eternal suffering awaits anyone who questions God's infinite love. That's the message we're brought up with, believe or die. "Thank you, forgiving Lord, for all those options." --Bill Hicks

God says do what you wish, but make the wrong choice and you will be tortured for eternity in hell. That's not free will. It's like a man telling his girlfriend, do what you wish, but if you choose to leave me, I will track you down and blow your brains out. When a man says this we call him a psychopath. When god says the same we call him "loving" and build churches in his honor.- William C. Easttom II

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

I will have a response for both of you in 2.5 hours (cause im going to lunch with my girlfriend). The time is 1:10 Eastern Standard Time (US).

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

If I shot my next door neighbor, how would my prison time be any different than if I shot the mayor? Our judicial system does not permit it. The same should be true of any 'infinite being'.

If a person commits a murder, the act takes a finite amount of time (the time it takes for the person to die) and has a finite consequence (the man dies). The person, however, will most likely be sentenced to life in prison. In relation to the rest of his life, this is eternity. So, for a crime that took seconds to commit, the offender spends the rest of his time until death paying for it. This is just. So also is committing a sin and being punished for it. It is true that should you kill a peer you will probably be given life. But when you kill a cop, its not difficult for the prosecutor to seek the death penalty. The penalty is increased because of the person offended. There is a real life example of the supernatural concept.

What claptrap. Look up 'doublespeak' in the dictionary.

Its not doublespeak. It actually does say something. Its philosophy, not biological science.

Incorrect. Matter cannot be created nor destroyed.

Would you be interested in debating the existence of God? Revelation says that this heaven and earth shall pass away. But debating this statement is another thread. Private message me and I will start a thread about the existence of God.

Yet another non-sequitur. Please provide evidence that something created by your god contains a part of god. If I put together a paper airplane, what 'part' of me is contained within the plane?

Its not that its created, but that its a part of God. His very breath. His word will endure forever. Why not the breath with which he spoke it? (Im not saying that our souls are indeed the Holy Spirit).

I am an atheist, yet I do not desire things much different than you do. I desire happiness, justice, laughter, freedom, and peace. But these desires are a 'choice' on my part to go to hell, according to you. I question your god's sanity.

Quote:
For a nonbeliever, a man who lives for himself will ultimately receive himself.


So all nonbelievers live for themselves? How narrow-minded and childish of you.

Actually, that sentence about for a nonbeliever, that was a preface to the section. I was putting it in the terms of a nonbeliever. This is what it should say.

For a nonbeliever: A man who lives for himself will ultimately receive himself. But we cannot save ourselves and so this would not help him in the least. But a man who pursues virtue, which is acting for some good outside of himself or his selfish desires, he finds God. God has always received sacrifice, however, he is pleased most by self sacrifice and a contrite spirit.

So, Im not saying you are going to hell. Please dont think I am judging you. My question is do you pursue virtue or selfishness.

This response was a little hackneyed. I will get to Gendou's response shortly.[/quote]

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

I have never seen one argument for Eternal Damnation that has mercy in it. THAT'S BECAUSE THERE IS NONE!

Heres one. God gave his creation free will. That is one of His most supreme gifts. A person can choose his destiny. Pursuit of virtue, truth, and the good of others, or pursuit of his self and vice. If a man makes a choice, how just is it to force him to choose something else. If a man chooses to please only himself, then would a loving God force the person to do otherwise? No because that would be a revocation of the gift of free will. Even if a man doesnt believe in free will, he can believe in personal responsibility. But a man cannot save himself. We die, and there is nothing we can do to stop that. We can only postpone it. So if we choose ourself in this world, we die in this and in the next because our choices in this reality mirror our choices in the next (Read C.S. Lewis "The Great Divorce"). Truth is another name for God. If we die pursueing truth, we find God. Justice is also another of His names. And another is Love. God's mercy in Hell is that a man can be free to choose what he chooses. God will not force the decision, even though He knows the consequences.

The only thing that Christian Fundamentalists could come up with is that God is Just.

I am not a fundamentalist Christian. I am Catholic.

In other words they are really saying that, God is selfish and only wants to do what is best for Him.

Two words: The Cross.
Somehow, I dont think that getting scourged, humiliated, betrayed and ultimately crucified was what was best for God. I bet it sucked. He did that for our benefit because we made ourselves his enemies. We refused to acknowledge Him. We did evil things, things contrary to the natural law. Through the cross, he gave us a way out. Whether people want to acknowledge it or not, Jesus is the way. Now, could people be following Jesus and not realize it? I dont know. Here is a quote from the Catholic Catechism.

The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."

"Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery." Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.
Catholic Catechism Paragraphs 841 & 1260

God created us. Lets say you created a computer program. It had super good AI. But it got a virus, so you deleted it. Isnt it well within your rights to do so? The police arent gonna show up and arrest you. Or you create a cup. Nobody is gonna say you are unjust if you destroy one of them. They are yours to destroy. The same is with God. But the point is, that while He is justified in destroying us, he doesnt do it outright. He gives us the chance to pursue virtue or to not. He set up natural laws, and we can abide by them or violate them. He gave us law and morals and the ability to do right conduct. We can do them or not do them. God can destroy us if He wants. We are his to destroy. But He gives us the option of choosing Him, or choosing ourselves.

Why were a few, or a single one, made at all, if only to exist in order to be made eternally miserable, which is infinitely worse than non-existence? –Immanuel Kant, “End of All Thingsâ€Â

Luke 17: 1-2
1: And he said to his disciples, "Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come!
2: It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.

Its true that it would be better for those people to have never been created. Jesus says so. The moral, dont lead people to vice.

So, thats my argument there. Im sure there is more, but lets start with this.

 

[Guest]

If a person commits a murder, the act takes a finite amount of time (the time it takes for the person to die) and has a finite consequence (the man dies). The person, however, will most likely be sentenced to life in prison.

Sounds good so far.

In relation to the rest of his life, this is eternity.

No. Eternity means forever and ever. Men do not live forever and ever, they live for a mere blink of an eye when compared to the lifespan of the universe. You will need to explain what you mean here.

So, for a crime that took seconds to commit, the offender spends the rest of his time until death paying for it. This is just. So also is committing a sin and being punished for it.

When you decide to live in a particular place, you agree implicitly to obey the rules of that place; whether it be a town, state, or nation. Should you break these rules, then you will be brought before the courts and may serve time in jail should you be found guilty.

Sorry, but it doesn't work that way with your god. Billions of people, including all the Muslims, Hindus, Zoroastrians, Atheists, and others, don't think your god exists. If "sin" is defined as disobeying your god, then only a small portion of the world's population is capable of sinning. Only those who believe in your god and in your god's definition of sin can be held accountable.

Would you be interested in debating the existence of God? Revelation says that this heaven and earth shall pass away. But debating this statement is another thread. Private message me and I will start a thread about the existence of God.

Sure, I'm always up for a healthy debate on the existence of a god.

However, you ignored my statement. I said quite clearly that matter cannot be created or destroyed, which is consistent with years of scientific findings. If you would like to demonstrate otherwise, I guarantee that you will win the Nobel Prize and revolutionize this world. I await your evidence.

Its not that its created, but that its a part of God. His very breath. His word will endure forever. Why not the breath with which he spoke it? (Im not saying that our souls are indeed the Holy Spirit).

I'm sorry, it doesn't appear that you addressed my question at all. I asked how everything your god creates is a part of your god. I await a response.

Actually, that sentence about for a nonbeliever, that was a preface to the section. I was putting it in the terms of a nonbeliever. This is what it should say.

For a nonbeliever: A man who lives for himself will ultimately receive himself. But we cannot save ourselves and so this would not help him in the least. But a man who pursues virtue, which is acting for some good outside of himself or his selfish desires, he finds God. God has always received sacrifice, however, he is pleased most by self sacrifice and a contrite spirit.

So, Im not saying you are going to hell. Please dont think I am judging you. My question is do you pursue virtue or selfishness.

I would say that I pursue virtues. I try to live a happy live, I love my family, and I enjoy my studies at my university. But that's not what you said. You said quite clearly that all virtuous men find your god. There have been and currently are millions and millions - probably billions - of virtuous people on this planet who have not and never will find your god. As I said, some of them will find Vishnu, others will find Cthulu, and a big chunk may never find any gods at all. Your statement appears to be demonstrably false.

How do you explain this discrepancy?

 

[Solo]

Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

 

[Guest]

Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

Which god?

 

[Solo]

Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

Which god?

You must have missed it in my previous post, the Creator God. He is the only God. Hopefully you won't have to wait until the judgment before you come to know the truth.

 

[Guest]

Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

Which god?

You must have missed it in my previous post, the Creator God. He is the only God. Hopefully you won't have to wait until the judgment before you come to know the truth.

Yes, I saw when you said the "Creator God", but I don't feel that adequately answers the question. By "Creator God", do you mean

- The creator god of ancient Greece (the Titans)
- The creator god Allah of Islam
- The creator god Jehovah of Christianity
- The creator goddess of Wicca and other pagan religions
- etc...

Which is it?

 

[Solo]

Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

Which god?

You must have missed it in my previous post, the Creator God. He is the only God. Hopefully you won't have to wait until the judgment before you come to know the truth.

Yes, I saw when you said the "Creator God", but I don't feel that adequately answers the question. By "Creator God", do you mean

- The creator god of ancient Greece (the Titans)
- The creator god Allah of Islam
- The creator god Jehovah of Christianity
- The creator goddess of Wicca and other pagan religions
- etc...

Which is it?

The only Creator God. You obviously do not know him. Perhaps you are in over your head in these discussions. :wink:

 

[Guest]

Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

Which god?

You must have missed it in my previous post, the Creator God. He is the only God. Hopefully you won't have to wait until the judgment before you come to know the truth.

Yes, I saw when you said the "Creator God", but I don't feel that adequately answers the question. By "Creator God", do you mean

- The creator god of ancient Greece (the Titans)
- The creator god Allah of Islam
- The creator god Jehovah of Christianity
- The creator goddess of Wicca and other pagan religions
- etc...

Which is it?

The only Creator God. You obviously do not know him. Perhaps you are in over your head in these discussions. :wink:

Don't be coy with me. You are still not answering the question. Given that we are on a Christian board, I assume that you mean the god of the Christian bible. However, you cannot deny that creator gods are, really, a dime a dozen. I am merely seeking clarification.

 

[Solo]

[quote="Solo":9ac0b]Men who have virtue find God, while men who think that they have virtue find what they want while rejecting the Creator God. Simple. :D

Which god?

You must have missed it in my previous post, the Creator God. He is the only God. Hopefully you won't have to wait until the judgment before you come to know the truth.

Yes, I saw when you said the "Creator God", but I don't feel that adequately answers the question. By "Creator God", do you mean

- The creator god of ancient Greece (the Titans)
- The creator god Allah of Islam
- The creator god Jehovah of Christianity
- The creator goddess of Wicca and other pagan religions
- etc...

Which is it?

The only Creator God. You obviously do not know him. Perhaps you are in over your head in these discussions. :wink:

Don't be coy with me. You are still not answering the question. Given that we are on a Christian board, I assume that you mean the god of the Christian bible. However, you cannot deny that creator gods are, really, a dime a dozen. I am merely seeking clarification.[/quote:9ac0b]
I am only coy to you because I know the truth of God being the creator and the only God, and you want to believe that there are a myriad of Gods. When you come to know the truth, you and I can have a real conversation, but until then you will bounce here to there with whatever blows your dress up. Hopefully, God will contact you one day with his truth, and you will believe. Until then pray your butt off.

 

[Guest]

I am only coy to you because I know the truth of God being the creator and the only God, and you want to believe that there are a myriad of Gods. When you come to know the truth, you and I can have a real conversation, but until then you will bounce here to there with whatever blows your dress up. Hopefully, God will contact you one day with his truth, and you will believe. Until then pray your butt off.

I invite you to demonstrate where I stated I believed in any god. I think you'll find that I have done no such thing and that you're making things up about me. That's kind of you.

However, now that we have established which creator god is under discussion (no thanks to Solo, who didn't seem to want to answer), we can get back to the topic at hand.

It was suggested - first by belovedwolfofgod and then by Solo - that all virtuous men will ultimately find the Christian god. My questions, then:

1) How do you explain the virtuous men like Socrates who lived and died before Jesus?

2) How do you explain the virtuous men who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus?

3) How do you explain the virtuous men who have found other gods of other religions, or perhaps no gods at all?

 

[Solo]

I am only coy to you because I know the truth of God being the creator and the only God, and you want to believe that there are a myriad of Gods. When you come to know the truth, you and I can have a real conversation, but until then you will bounce here to there with whatever blows your dress up. Hopefully, God will contact you one day with his truth, and you will believe. Until then pray your butt off.

I invite you to demonstrate where I stated I believed in any god. I think you'll find that I have done no such thing and that you're making things up about me. That's kind of you.

However, now that we have established which creator god is under discussion (no thanks to Solo, who didn't seem to want to answer), we can get back to the topic at hand.

It was suggested - first by belovedwolfofgod and then by Solo - that all virtuous men will ultimately find the Christian god. My questions, then:

1) How do you explain the virtuous men like Socrates who lived and died before Jesus?

2) How do you explain the virtuous men who have lived and died without ever hearing of Jesus?

3) How do you explain the virtuous men who have found other gods of other religions, or perhaps no gods at all?

The wisest man defined the duty of man, and the virtue can be determined by the Creator as to what is good or what is evil.

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil. Ecclesiastes 12:13-14

Any discussions apart from the virtue defined by the creator God is all guesswork from a finite mind.

If Socrates and other men who lived before Jesus did not know the creator God, then they will be judged accordingly, and their virtue is lacking.

Jesus is God the creator.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1-13

 

[Guest]

The wisest man defined the duty of man, and the virtue can be determined by the Creator as to what is good or what is evil.

Any discussions apart from the virtue defined by the creator God is all guesswork from a finite mind.

If Socrates and other men who lived before Jesus did not know the creator God, then they will be judged accordingly, and their virtue is lacking.

I've taken the liberty of cutting everything out that didn't address my questions.

We appear to be, however, at an impasse. When I use the word 'virtue' in a sentence, I am using it according to the dictionary definition:

vir·tue (vûrch) n. 1. Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness.

You, Solo, are redefining the word 'virtue' to be something that suits your argument. You are redefining it to mean (more or less, and do correct me if I'm mistaken) something that is determined by your god.

As you well know, philosophical debate fails to be effective once individual parties do not consent to using the same definitions for their words. I submit the dictionary as the only reliable, universally-agreed source of word definitions, and I therefore ask you to rephase your argument using the dictionary definition of the word 'virtue'.

 

[Solo]

The wisest man defined the duty of man, and the virtue can be determined by the Creator as to what is good or what is evil.

Any discussions apart from the virtue defined by the creator God is all guesswork from a finite mind.

If Socrates and other men who lived before Jesus did not know the creator God, then they will be judged accordingly, and their virtue is lacking.

I've taken the liberty of cutting everything out that didn't address my questions.

We appear to be, however, at an impasse. When I use the word 'virtue' in a sentence, I am using it according to the dictionary definition:

vir·tue (vûrch) n. 1. Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness.

You, Solo, are redefining the word 'virtue' to be something that suits your argument. You are redefining it to mean (more or less, and do correct me if I'm mistaken) something that is determined by your god.

As you well know, philosophical debate fails to be effective once individual parties do not consent to using the same definitions for their words. I submit the dictionary as the only reliable, universally-agreed source of word definitions, and I therefore ask you to rephase your argument using the dictionary definition of the word 'virtue'.

Your definition is the right definition. Your understanding of righteousness and goodness is faulty without including the creator God's character of righteousness and goodness. Jesus says that there is none that are good, no not one. Isaiah says that man's righteousness is as filthy rags. As I have stated, you are presenting a faulty premise on your definition of righteousness and goodness, and it falls way short of the truth as revealed to us by the creator God. All else is a waste of time.

 

[Guest]

Your definition is the right definition. Your understanding of righteousness and goodness is faulty without including the creator God's character of righteousness and goodness. Jesus says that there is none that are good, no not one. Isaiah says that man's righteousness is as filthy rags. As I have stated, you are presenting a faulty premise on your definition of righteousness and goodness, and it falls way short of the truth as revealed to us by the creator God. All else is a waste of time.

You contradict yourself. First, you admit that my dictionary definition of the word 'virtue' is the right definition, but then you state that the definition is incorrect unless we add some element of your god. Yet the dictionary definition includes nothing about your god at all.

So, which is it? Is the dictionary definition right or wrong?

If it is correct, then there is no need to discuss your god at all. Mankind can be virtuous without being Christian.

If it is incorrect, then why can't I find a single dictionary definition of the word 'virtue' that includes the Christian god?