Iron Clad example proving OSAS from John 10:28

[FreeGrace]

I said this:
"But your view is that justification, which is described as a gift of God in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 is not irrevocable, even though Paul later in the SAME EPISTLE said that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29)."

FG,
None of these scriptures say anything about the opposite position, revocable, and I don't understand whjat you are saying.

Sorry for any confusion. My point was that justification is a gift of God, from the verses cited, and since it is a gift of God, it is therefore irrevocable.

I was just pointing out to another poster who doesn't accept the fact that eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Paul described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God. And since he also said that God's gifts are irrevocable, therefore, both justification and eternal life are irrevocable.

These facts indicate that one is eternally secure by having been both justified and received eternal life.

Therefore, the believer cannot end up in the second death, or lake of fire. Not possible.

Sorry for not making that clear.

 

[Jim Parker]

to be honest that is not osas is about. all though there are those who do practice it that way.

I agree and that is exactly the problem I am talking about. "there are those who do practice it that way."
When combined with a hyper "no-works" theology, it is perceived by believers that they have no necessity to do the good works for which we were "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
If God created us in Christ Jesus to do works He specifically set for each of us to do (and He did) then it behooves us to either obey God whom we call "Lord" or quit pretending that we consider Him our Lord (Luk 6:46) and admit that we are our own "lords." (Which is another way of saying we are slaves to sin and enemies of God.)

the do nothing attitude after being saved is not Bible and if one practices that. then chances are they are not saved

Absolutely.
But that's what many pastors/preachers encourage to make sure they get their phony "no works" gospel across. The only "work" that these charlatans approve of and consistently preach as necessary for believers is tithing.

Hmmmmm.....phony "no works" gospel and "give me 10% of your income"...............

iakov the fool

 

[th1b.taylor]

I said this:
"But your view is that justification, which is described as a gift of God in Rom 3:24 and 5:15,16,17 is not irrevocable, even though Paul later in the SAME EPISTLE said that God's gifts are irrevocable (11:29)."

Sorry for any confusion. My point was that justification is a gift of God, from the verses cited, and since it is a gift of God, it is therefore irrevocable.

I was just pointing out to another poster who doesn't accept the fact that eternal life, a gift of God (Rom 6:23) is also irrevocable (Rom 11:29).

Paul described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God. And since he also said that God's gifts are irrevocable, therefore, both justification and eternal life are irrevocable.

These facts indicate that one is eternally secure by having been both justified and received eternal life.

Therefore, the believer cannot end up in the second death, or lake of fire. Not possible.

Sorry for not making that clear.

All good then, you're right.

 

[ezra]

I agree and that is exactly the problem I am talking about. "there are those who do practice it that way."
When combined with a hyper "no-works" theology, it is perceived by believers that they have no necessity to do the good works for which we were "created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)
If God created us in Christ Jesus to do works He specifically set for each of us to do (and He did) then it behooves us to either obey God whom we call "Lord" or quit pretending that we consider Him our Lord (Luk 6:46) and admit that we are our own "lords." (Which is another way of saying we are slaves to sin and enemies of God.)

Absolutely.
But that's what many pastors/preachers encourage to make sure they get their phony "no works" gospel across. The only "work" that these charlatans approve of and consistently preach as necessary for believers is tithing.

Hmmmmm.....phony "no works" gospel and "give me 10% of your income"...............

iakov the fool

yes even some so called pastors ..see we have this among all denoms......when cornered and asked do you believe in o.s.a.s they will say no. next conservation what would it take to get you back in Church? the foot shuffle starts in many cases i dont need to go to church to be saved . they are %100 right they don,t . we are living in a time where strange fire has entered the Church. i do lean in toward osas but there is some guidelines in that area . doer of the word not hearer only we soon forget what we use to be and when we look in the mirror .{the word} we no longer respond to the old man. works follow salvation works come from having a relationship. having that want to and desire to do something. i call it the inward Fire some keep a automatic sprinkling system set every 5 mins.. for me i simply can not say to one who have turn back to weak and beggarly elements of the world

Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto [“were in bondage to”] them which by nature are no gods. But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labor in vain” (Gal. 4:8-11).
i do believe it take effort on our part to keep our relationship in the right manner . no taking away our salvation is kept by the power of God.
but the part be a doer (something we all fail at} yes i believe in free will sad to say there will always be hirelings in the Church. i have a good friend who is a pastor preaches a lot on tithes giving to the Church. but are we willing to make the sacrifice and go beyond %10. we have room for all our toys and nothing wrong with toys.. but can we say give and then we get a new deer rifle when we already have a good one. i am not legalistic or charismatic..but i do try to take a common sense look at what the word tells us i seen this on face book and saved it to my p.c ..if not careful this is where we are today View attachment 11171

 

[JLB]

works follow salvation works come from having a relationship.

• 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:13-16

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22

At this point I ask those who pose these type of questions, in support of their doctrine, to define what works they are referring to:

• Works of the law?
• Good works to maintain the Church building, at the direction of the Pastor?
• Work that "earns" salvation?
• Good works that a person decides to do to "maintain" their salvation?
• The work [obedience] of faith, that is inspired by the Spirit within, that expresses itself through love?

That's when the demeaning remarks that come from the latest logical fallacy being levied against me usually start.




JLB

 

[ezra]

• 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:13-16

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22

At this point I ask those who pose these type of questions, in support of their doctrine, to define what works they are referring to:

• Works of the law?
• Good works to maintain the Church building, at the direction of the Pastor?
• Work that "earns" salvation?
• Good works that a person decides to do to "maintain" their salvation?
• The work [obedience] of faith, that is inspired by the Spirit within, that expresses itself through love?

That's when the demeaning remarks that come from the latest logical fallacy being levied against me usually start.




JLB

really not sure what your point is.... have you ever helped out in the Church? that is a work have you ever helped a fellow believer that is works. .then paul said work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ... beyond that i am not sure of what your posting..

 

[chessman]

• 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:13-16

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22

• Works of the law?
• Good works to maintain the Church building, at the direction of the Pastor?
• Work that "earns" salvation?
• Good works that a person decides to do to "maintain" their salvation?
• The work [obedience] of faith, that is inspired by the Spirit within, that expresses itself through love?

Not surprising that you left out an option. Namely the perect working of Jesus Christ and the Spirit and the Father given to us:

Ephesians 4:11 (NKJV) And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, ...

Galatians 5:1, 5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. ...
For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith.

James 1:17-18, 21 James 2:1 (NKJV) My brethren, do not hold the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with partiality. Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning. Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures. Therefore lay aside all filthiness and overflow of wickedness, and receive with meekness the implanted word, which is able to save your souls. ​

Who's able to save our souls?
The one in whom there is no variation or shadow of turning.

 

[JLB]

Not surprising that you left out an option. Namely the perect working of Jesus Christ and the Spirit and the Father given to us:

• That's when the demeaning remarks that come from the latest logical fallacy being levied against me usually start.

Thanks for proving me right, I knew I could count on you.


Please post the scripture, with these words that you are claiming -

the perect working of Jesus Christ and the Spirit and the Father given to us:


What the bible does actually say is:

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
1 Peter 1:3-5


This faith is precious, and proven to be established in the hearts of those who believe, by the outworking action of love.

• 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for theedifying of itself in love. Ephesians 4:13-16

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22

JLB

 

[JLB]

really not sure what your point is.... have you ever helped out in the Church? that is a work have you ever helped a fellow believer that is works. .then paul said work out your own salvation with fear and trembling ... beyond that i am not sure of what your posting..

 

[FreeGrace]

I agree and that is exactly the problem I am talking about. "there are those who do practice it that way."
When combined with a hyper "no-works" theology,

Interesting phraseology, since that is exactly what Scripture teaches:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this (salvation) not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is not by works. It is by grace, through faith.

 

[JLB]

Interesting phraseology, since that is exactly what Scripture teaches:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this (salvation) not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is not by works. It is by grace, through faith.

If you actually include the context, it's easy to see Paul's point, and the "works" he is referring to.

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. 11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. Ephesians 2:8-13

Paul is reassuring these Gentiles, that they are a part of the household of God and the commonwealth of Israel, not by keeping the works of the law, but buy the blood of Jesus and faith in Him.

"Not by works" is a reference to the context of the works of the law, not the obedience of faith.

• For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.

Paul goes on to make his point which culminates in him saying... Now therefore, which is saying I said all that to bring you to this grand point!

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit. Ephesians 2:19-22


Faith working... by love is the point he drives home in his letters, as he fights against the legalism of his day, reassuring his gentile churches not to be decived by the Jews who would bring them back under bondage.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love.

• For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. Galatians 5:6

• Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect? James 2:22

JLB

 

[smaller]

And don't forget the NEXT verse: Eph 2:9 - not by works, so that no one can boast.

True.

Paul kicks salvation by works and salvation by legalism off planet earth in Romans 7. Neither posture is even remotely in the theological cards.

 

[smaller]

Look at it again.
What is it through that one inherits the promises? Did he say through works, or through faith? Through faith, of course. How can you say the passage above is a works gospel?

I have no issues with the scriptures. I responded to your claims with scriptures stating the opposite of your claims.

Explain to us what the diligence of faith is in your doctrine. What does that look like? In Hebrews 6:9-11 NASB it's love expressed in works.

And somehow you manage to get an "or else you'll burn alive forever" magically inserted where there are no such claims made to believers.

The author says, that love and works are the "things that accompany salvation" (vs.9). And he calls that faith. But hyper-grace doctrine says nothing has to accompany faith,

Addressed previously. Here it is again in case it got by you. Here is "the work" that doesn't appear to your sight. You didn't see it the last time, and probably won't this time, but we'll try:

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It's the identical "work" described here:

1 Corinthians 12:3
Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

because that would make it a works gospel. The author says that the fruitless, works-less 'field' is one that is cursed and will be burned in the end, an obvious reference to the Judgment of the accursed.

The most obvious thing is you have a very hard time dealing with allegorical connections:

Heb. 6:
8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

Now, connect dot:

2 Corinthians 12:7
And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.

If I could make it bigger I would, but it probably still wouldn't sink in because it's the same reality that Mark 4:15 speaks of.

But hyper-grace doctrine says fruitless, barren fields are not cursed and will even be saved. This passage about faith in Hebrews completely and utterly destroys that doctrine, exposing it as false.

I'd suggest you are not getting the picture.

 

[smaller]

Lol, you still don't even understand the argument.

In non-OSAS doctrine you are very much saved in any and every moment you are believing. There's no 'if' about it.

Uh, no. You MIGHT BE. The chance that anything could change at a moments notice is ALWAYS on the table.

Paul plainly said you are presently saved when you are presently holding fast the word of the gospel by which you were first saved:

Paul was abundantly clear we're NOT saved by works or anything we've done:


Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

The instant anyone attaches salvation to 'works' it is NO MORE GRACE. See how that works???

Titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

We are not engaged with just believers in any of these equations.

1 Cor. 3:
16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

How many times did the Spirit of Christ rotate in and out and back in you today?



That whole notion is utterly absurd.

 

[Jim Parker]

Interesting phraseology, since that is exactly what Scripture teaches:
Eph 2:8-9
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith — and this (salvation) not from yourselves, it (salvation) is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

Salvation is not by works. It is by grace, through faith.

yeah
You said that already.
And, just as always, you ignored all the verses that you don't like .
Enjoy the half of the Bible you use.

 

[FreeGrace]

If you actually include the context, it's easy to see Paul's point, and the "works" he is referring to.

His point is that salvation is NOT OF WORKS. Stated plainly.

And v.10 isn't part of obtaining salvation.

 

[FreeGrace]

yeah
You said that already.

I am hopeful that repetition will someday get through.

And, just as always, you ignored all the verses that you don't like .

This is nothing more than a violation of the ToS. And a very unbiblical judgment on what you have no idea about. There are NO verses that I don't like, so please cease with your judgmental silliness.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Yes, God loves the world in this way, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him WILL NEVER PERISH but have eternal life. John 3:16

If your faith does not love the way God 'so loved the world' then you do not have the justification by faith that you think you have:

"6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything (toward justificaton--see context), but faith working through love." (Galatians 5:6 NASB)

But hyper-grace OSAS doctrine says what Paul said is not true. It says even in the absence of faith you are justified by God. At least traditional OSAS says you have to have faith to be saved.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I'm not here to defend anyone's claims. Only the claims of the Bible. If you have an issue with another poster, then please take it up with them.

It wasn't for your benefit. I wanted smaller to see it.,
But it's interesting how you want to deflect what I'm saying instead of address it.
He called me part of the phony church. But, since I have believed, I can never be phony because in hyper-grace any and all people who believed somewhere in the past is part of the true church. It's that doctrine of universalism in hyper-grace that reba was pointing out, but which hyper-grace itself seems to be oblivious to.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have no issues with the scriptures. I responded to your claims with scriptures stating the opposite of your claims.

Just explain how this passage below is actually a works gospel passage, even though it plainly says that the promises are gained through FAITH:

"9But, beloved, we are convinced of better things concerning you, and things that accompany salvation, though we are speaking in this way. 10For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name, in having ministered and in still ministering to the saints. 11And we desire that each one of you show the same diligence so as to realize the full assurance of hope until the end, 12so that you will not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and patience inherit the promises." (Hebrews 6:9-12 NASB bold and underline mine)

And then explain how works don't have to accompany the faith that secures the promises, even though the author points out plainly that works DO accompany salvation.