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Is A New Moon A Sign of the Rapture?
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Jim Parker
Member
So, are you saying that you are led by the Holy Spirit but the rest of the tens of thousands of denominations or anyone who doesn't agree with you is not?
I seriously doubt that is what you meant to say but it is a conclusion I could reasonably draw from your comment.
Anyone who says that they are led by the Spirit into the truth of what they believe as compared to some other view are, of necessity, stating that he believes the person holding a contrary view was definitely NOT led by the Holy Spirit.
I try to avoid that position as it leads to an argument that goes something like this:
"I'm led by the Holy Spirit and you're not."
"No! I am and you're not."
"Am too!"
"Are not!"
etc.
It's a kind of Laurel and Hardy routine. (Boy am I old!)
Jesus specifically stated that He purposely taught in parables.
Mat 13:11-13 He answered and said to them, “Because it has been given to you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For whoever has, to him more will be given, and he will have abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.
They didn't need one. They were personally instructed by God incarnate.
The NT was written to insure that what the apostles taught was not lost or distorted.
Truth7t7
Member
The Apostles
They kept the matter to themselves, discussing what "rising from the dead" meant.
We know what Jesus meant as we look back in hindsight through the NT.
The Apostles had Jesus
Road to Emmaus suggests they weren't fully up to speed until Jesus appeared to them alive again.
They also didn't know about Paul who was set aside at birth. So they sought another. Matthias
We know and can read about all these events.
The Spirit leads us into all truth. So despite all the claims not everyone learned or had their understanding through the Spirit of Christ. Does that mean "Jesus" was vague?
The end of the time of the end.We now have multiple "Ends"?
Big Smiles
or end of tribulation.
Was I, (not Jesus), being vague?
lisa-in-FL
Member
Jim Parker and Truth7t7 - since neither one has addressed my question about the marriage supper of the Lamb, I suppose I will.
If you notice in Revelation 19, it takes place before the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom. If the Church is the bride of Christ, how can we not be present at this celebration? And how will we return with him if we are being caught up to meet him when he returns?
2 Timothy 2:15 recommends "rightly dividing the word of truth". That means not confusing the promises and covenants made with Israel with those made for the body of Christ.
The church is exempt from the great tribulation because its unfinished business between God and the nation of Israel. Its also known as Daniel's 70th week. Daniel 9-20-27, that's a vision given to Daniel for his people - the nation of Israel. Verse 24 - making reconciliation for sin - I don't know about you, but Christ died for me and has already made reconciliation for my sins. This isn't for the saved, born again believers. Verse 27 - this is a description of the anti-christ making a covenant with Israel and breaking it in the middle of the "week".
Deut. 4:30 - Addressed to Israel when they are in tribulation "even in the latter days".
Matt 24 - starting verse 15 - to the people in Judea and the warning to pray that your flight not be on the sabbath day - He's not speaking to the Christians (we don't keep the sabbath) - that's for Israel who will be going through the great tribulation. This is about their obedience to God and sanctification, not the church's. We've already been bought with a price through Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
If you notice in Revelation 19, it takes place before the return of Jesus to establish his kingdom. If the Church is the bride of Christ, how can we not be present at this celebration? And how will we return with him if we are being caught up to meet him when he returns?
2 Timothy 2:15 recommends "rightly dividing the word of truth". That means not confusing the promises and covenants made with Israel with those made for the body of Christ.
The church is exempt from the great tribulation because its unfinished business between God and the nation of Israel. Its also known as Daniel's 70th week. Daniel 9-20-27, that's a vision given to Daniel for his people - the nation of Israel. Verse 24 - making reconciliation for sin - I don't know about you, but Christ died for me and has already made reconciliation for my sins. This isn't for the saved, born again believers. Verse 27 - this is a description of the anti-christ making a covenant with Israel and breaking it in the middle of the "week".
Deut. 4:30 - Addressed to Israel when they are in tribulation "even in the latter days".
Matt 24 - starting verse 15 - to the people in Judea and the warning to pray that your flight not be on the sabbath day - He's not speaking to the Christians (we don't keep the sabbath) - that's for Israel who will be going through the great tribulation. This is about their obedience to God and sanctification, not the church's. We've already been bought with a price through Christ's sacrifice on the cross.
Jim Parker
Member
The apostles were led into all truth by the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
That's when they started preaching and writing gospels and letters.
Paul came along shortly after them when he saw the Lord on the road to Damascus and then went and reviewed the scriptures finding Jesus everywhere in them by the revelation of the Holy Spirit.
Then he started preaching and writing letters.
Truth7t7
Member
"In Love"
The marriage supper takes place at the "Second Advent" the day and hour no man knows.
Dispensationalism in error teaches this takes place before the "Second Advent" in a rapture of the Church to heaven.
Matthew 25:10-13KJV
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
The "Second Advent" as seen above and below, the day and hour no man knows.
There will be no pre-tribulation rapture of the Church to heaven.
Matthew 24:29-39KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
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lisa-in-FL
Member
Yes, exactly "they that were ready" - that's the born again believers that will be caught up to Christ in the clouds. We won't go into the great tribulation.
Revelation 19:7 - Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.
Matt 24: 15, Jesus is talking to the Jewish people, not Christians.
If you believe that the church has to go through the tribulation to be "cleansed" or "purified" then you are saying Christ died on the cross for nothing.
Truth7t7
Member
Lisa it appears you are trying to use human reason to interpret the scripture.
Once again, Jesus Returns In the "Second Advent" this is the day and hour no man knows, Jesus is speaking to the Church.
Lisa if this represents a pre-trib rapture, then the day and hour will have been revealed to those left behind and living.
As you can clearly see, the future "Second Advent" is the day and hour no man knows, as Jesus the Bridegroom comes for his Church the Bride to the Marriage.
There will be no pre-tribulation rapture of the Church to heaven, this is the invention of John N. Darby 1830's, and propagated by C.I. Scofield's reference bible in 1909 to the unsuspecting world.
I have clearly explained my position, the horse is dead.
Matthew 25:10-13KJV
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
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lisa-in-FL
Member
Lisa it appears you are trying to use human reason to interpret the scripture.
Once again, Jesus Returns In the "Second Advent" this is the day and hour no man knows, Jesus is speaking to the Church.
Lisa if this represents a pre-trib rapture, then the day and hour will have been revealed to those left behind and living.
As you can clearly see, the future "Second Advent" is the day and hour no man knows, as Jesus the Bridegroom comes for his Churh the Bride.
I have clearly explained my position, the horse is dead.
Matthew 25:10-13KJV
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
LOL! That's what your whole argument hinges on?!
Right, no man knows it now - present tense. Who cares if they know after it happens?
I dont dispute that.
Clearly they saw something that could explain there coming forth from their seclusion after Jesus was crucified. As evidenced by their the sudden boldness to preach about this new meaning of life found in Jesus openly in the temple courts even though they ware threatened and warned by the authorities not to speak any more about Jesus.
I once heard a professor of the NT who was not of the faith acknowledge they saw something as evidenced by the suddenly change and energy of the movement but they don't know what they saw. Hello! Jesus lives!
Sorry I don't fault Jesus with being vague. I would look elsewhere for such errors in understanding.
The resurrection of the dead in Christ comes before the rapture.
The Church who has been given the signs to watch for will not be caught as a thief in the night by His coming.
- you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief.
1 Thessalonians 5:1-4
JLB
How much sooner? It happens on the one and same day The gathering of all saints from heaven and alive on earth
That special day.
On that day there will be neither sunlight nor cold, frosty darkness. 7It will be a unique day—a day known only to the Lord—with no distinction between day and night. When evening comes, there will be light.
8On that day living water will flow out from Jerusalem, half of it east to the Dead Sea and half of it west to the Mediterranean Sea, in summer and in winter.
Jim Parker
Member
I don't :fault" Jesus either since He clearly stated that it was his intention to be vague by speaking/teaching in parables.
Mat 13:13-15 Therefore I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. And in them the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled, which says:
Hearing you will hear and shall not understand,
And seeing you will see and not perceive;
For the hearts of this people have grown dull.
Their ears are hard of hearing,
And their eyes they have closed,
Lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears,
Lest they should understand with their hearts and turn,
So that I should heal them.
Truth7t7
Member
The resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" takes place on "The Last Day" of Earth's history, at the "Second Advent" of Jesus Christ returning in fire Judgment.
John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Agreed.
Never the less it takes place before the rapture at His coming.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-17
- we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep
- And the dead in Christ will rise first.
- Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them
The resurrection and rapture are one event that take place at His coming, on the last day.
JLB
As I stated Jesus explained things to His disciples. Are you stating Jesus's parables are to vague for "us" to understand?That He is vague.
And in Jesus's day they had more than words as a witness.
He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the signs you are doing if God were not with him."
