Is baptism essential to salvation?

[warfrog]

Eric the Baptist maybe your study had not been "intense" enough. Jesus, Paul and Peter make baptism (water baptism) essential to salvation.

Must have been raining at the crucifixtion of the Christ then. Poor theif was told by the Lord Himself he would enter paradise yet he wasnt baptised with water. What about pentecost? must have been raining then, or they had tons of buckets of water prepared to splash the 3000 or so who recieved the Holy Spirit without water baptism.

The Holy Spirit being the gaurentee given to the saints for the purchased redemption.

 

[handy]

OK heres my situation and I beleive for those of you who are enjoying this discussion it may be of an interest to you for discusson.

When the Lord was revealed to me and I accepted the gift of His blood, noone baptised me with water, noone even offered nor told me to go get baptised or provided the possibility of it being done.

It also hasent occured yet and that was many years ago. Now I can drive an hour away and im sure a pastor would do this for me.
However i have prayed and told God when He wills He can set it up, that all may be done of His accordance, and that is where my heart remains and has remained.

So i am unbaptized with water, i have the Holy Spirit working in me through the promise of Christ, my Lord and Saviour. I will remain unbaptized until His will be done regarding the issue of being baptized with water, so now, if i was to go to sleep without being baptised whom of you would tell me I am not following the commandments of God nor do i love Him?

So what do you guys really say?

Is it essential for me? It wasnt for the theif. It wasnt for the O.T saints.
Can a mans heart be for the Lord yet that man not be water baptised?

Now dont get me wrong, if a brethren walks up to me and says allow me to baptise you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, i will praise God and thank the servatude of my brethren and be baptised with water, or if its brought up in my life personally in some other form.

What more does the Lord need to do or say to you than what He has already said (be baptized) and done (was baptized Himself so that all righteousness is fulfilled).

Warfrog...you make it sound as if God needs to give you a call from heaven or something...exactly what is it you're waiting for? For someone to walk up to you out of the blue and say, "Let me baptize you?" Why are you waiting for that?

When He wills it? Of course He wills it...He commands us to do so and was baptized Himself.

"I will remain unbaptized until His will be done regarding the issue of being baptized with water, so now, if i was to go to sleep without being baptised whom of you would tell me I am not following the commandments of God nor do i love Him?

So what do you guys really say?"
Again, what's this with "His will be done regarding the issue of being baptized with water...?" His will is that you be baptized with water...He's clearly said so. So, yes, if you go to sleep tonight without being baptize, I will say that you are not following the commandments of God in this.

I won't say that you don't love him...how could I possibly judge your heart like that...but are you not following the commandment of being baptized when you're not being baptized? Of course you're not!

Brother, if you're truly waiting for someone to come along and say, "Be baptized..." here it is

Brother, go and be baptized!!!!

Do you live anywhere around Idaho...'cause if you're waiting for someone to personally walk up to you in order to baptize you...I will...just gotta know where you're at.

 

[warfrog]

Must have been raining at the crucifixtion of the Christ then. Poor theif was told by the Lord Himself he would enter paradise yet he wasnt baptised with water. What about pentecost? must have been raining then, or they had tons of buckets of water prepared to splash the 3000 or so who recieved the Holy Spirit without water baptism.

The Holy Spirit being the gaurentee given to the saints for the purchased redemption.

Foolishness, i should check before i post, the men were in fact baptized on pentecost.

 

[warfrog]

What more does the Lord need to do or say to you than what He has already said (be baptized) and done (was baptized Himself so that all righteousness is fulfilled).

Warfrog...you make it sound as if God needs to give you a call from heaven or something...exactly what is it you're waiting for? For someone to walk up to you out of the blue and say, "Let me baptize you?" Why are you waiting for that?

When He wills it? Of course He wills it...He commands us to do so and was baptized Himself.

"I will remain unbaptized until His will be done regarding the issue of being baptized with water, so now, if i was to go to sleep without being baptised whom of you would tell me I am not following the commandments of God nor do i love Him?

So what do you guys really say?"
Again, what's this with "His will be done regarding the issue of being baptized with water...?" His will is that you be baptized with water...He's clearly said so. So, yes, if you go to sleep tonight without being baptize, I will say that you are not following the commandments of God in this.

I won't say that you don't love him...how could I possibly judge your heart like that...but are you not following the commandment of being baptized when you're not being baptized? Of course you're not!

Brother, if you're truly waiting for someone to come along and say, "Be baptized..." here it is

Brother, go and be baptized!!!!

Do you live anywhere around Idaho...'cause if you're waiting for someone to personally walk up to you in order to baptize you...I will...just gotta know where you're at.

Care to come to Ontario Canada? 8)
I'm not in refusal about it, I have faith that yes in fact when He wills water baptism shall take place, is it wrong that i have full faith He will deliver to me in His grace and to His will?
Im not saying i shold or i shouldnt be baptised, I know He will have it done according to His will.
I do not beleive it is required for salvation, I know it isnt required for baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is the reception of the gaurentee to the purchased possesion of the redemption through Christ.
So if savation is given through the Lord and the theif recieved salvation without being baptised by water, why do any of you insist that if a man is not baptised and calls on the Lord He isnt saved?
Thats what your saying, it is essential to salvation...NO! this is essential to salvation:
"For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. 5 For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, "The man who does those things shall live by them." 6 But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, "Do not say in your heart, 'Who will ascend into heaven?' " (that is, to bring Christ down from above) 7 or, " 'Who will descend into the abyss?' " (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8 But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."

 

[handy]

Warfrog...

A trip to Ontario would be nice...I've only spent a short time in BC and would love to explore your country much more...

I'm not going to say that if you're not baptized you're not saved...

But, why make it about that? Jesus said to be baptized, to baptize others and was baptized Himself. How much clearer can it be made that we Christians are to be baptized.

It just seems as if one is putting God to the test...I know many non-Christians will do this regarding salvation..."I'll believe in God if He gives me some sign."

"I will do this if God does that..."

I just think it is very wrong for any Christian to have the attitude about something that is clearly commanded..."Hey, if it isn't essential...bottom line necessary...to my eternal salvation...I ain't doin' it." It's like saying that one only need to do the barest minimum...

I also think it's wrong to have an attitude that seems to say...."Well, I've done this, this, this, and this...and since that isn't essential...I've done enough." Un-hun...that shouldn't fly either.

Is baptism essential...not the question I'm going to answer now. (I already have done so.) So, let's not go there...let's not talk about what is essential to salvation.

Let's talk instead about the issue of obedience.

Is water baptism necessary to be in obedience to all that our Lord commanded us to do: ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

Why put Him to the test about this? This whole attitude of "If someone comes to me and says, 'Let me baptize you' then I will" about something that He has commanded us to do is putting Him to the test.

He said to be baptized. Walk in obedience to the One who gave Himself up for you. Do it.

 

[warfrog]

Warfrog...

A trip to Ontario would be nice...I've only spent a short time in BC and would love to explore your country much more...

I'm not going to say that if you're not baptized you're not saved...

But, why make it about that? Jesus said to be baptized, to baptize others and was baptized Himself. How much clearer can it be made that we Christians are to be baptized.

It just seems as if one is putting God to the test...I know many non-Christians will do this regarding salvation..."I'll believe in God if He gives me some sign."

"I will do this if God does that..."

I just think it is very wrong for any Christian to have the attitude about something that is clearly commanded..."Hey, if it isn't essential...bottom line necessary...to my eternal salvation...I ain't doin' it." It's like saying that one only need to do the barest minimum...

I also think it's wrong to have an attitude that seems to say...."Well, I've done this, this, this, and this...and since that isn't essential...I've done enough." Un-hun...that shouldn't fly either.

Is baptism essential...not the question I'm going to answer now. (I already have done so.) So, let's not go there...let's not talk about what is essential to salvation.

Let's talk instead about the issue of obedience.

Is water baptism necessary to be in obedience to all that our Lord commanded us to do: ABSOLUTELY!!!!!

Why put Him to the test about this? This whole attitude of "If someone comes to me and says, 'Let me baptize you' then I will" about something that He has commanded us to do is putting Him to the test.

He said to be baptized. Walk in obedience to the One who gave Himself up for you. Do it.

Because people are saying its essential, if it was essential to be saved, the theif on the cross wasnt saved, im not saved, I know i am, I have the gaurentee of the promised redemption within me through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thats why I saying this, if you say it is required, it is a work that is necessary for salvation, which the theif couldnt possibly have done.

Know what i am saying? It's not essential, its recommended for the sake of profession, its an acknowledgement done before men in confession towards the need of Christ.
It is a form of this done physically before men "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
Spiritually you are baptised through the Holy Spirit.

It's not a test, its faith. What you do, do in faith of Christ.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I believe He went to Abrahams bosom. The theif shall be gathered with all of His in the resurrection of the righteous.

This thread delves into that idea a bit. http://www.christianforums.net/f17/rich-man-lazarus-34124/

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Sorry, but where did he go then? This makes no sense.

Jesus went to the grave, Sheol', Hades even. Jesus was dead, really dead until the 3rd day! The only place he was was in the tomb of Joseph of Aramethia.

It's a shame that one inserted punctuation mark (the infamous comma) can cause such confusion.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Christ did not got to Hell, Hades or whatever one wants to call it! The bible needs to be re-read and re- thought on that issue.

 

[handy]

Because people are saying its essential, if it was essential to be saved, the theif on the cross wasnt saved, im not saved, I know i am, I have the gaurentee of the promised redemption within me through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Thats why I saying this, if you say it is required, it is a work that is necessary for salvation, which the theif couldnt possibly have done.

Know what i am saying? It's not essential, its recommended for the sake of profession, its an acknowledgement done before men in confession towards the need of Christ.
It is a form of this done physically before men "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation"
Spiritually you are baptised through the Holy Spirit.

It's not a test, its faith. What you do, do in faith of Christ.

Warfrog maybe you need to study the Bible more on the subject.

I agree with Webb here, Warfrog...you need to study the Bible more...not on whether or not baptism is essential for salvation.

But, on what we should be doing once saved.

If salvation were the only thing that is remotely important...then as soon as we believe we should just be put to death right then and there. Why not? If salvation is all that there is...it would save a lot of headache and heartache just to go on to eternity.

Just because something isn't necessary for salvation doesn't mean it isn't necessary as part of our vital walk with Christ.

Look at what Ephesians 2 says about works:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Why are we saved in the first place? We are saved, created in Christ Jesus for good works. We should walk in them.

Yes, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. But, we are also to be baptized in water...Christ not only commands that we be so, but He commands that we baptize all who come to Him. In Matthew 28 Jesus is not commanding the Holy Spirit to go and make disciples, baptize them and to teach them to do ALL He has commanded us to do...He's telling us to do that. And, He isn't saying to think about it, or that if we want to He'd appreciate. He said, "GO and DO."

How are you doing on that anyway? How are you going forth and making disciples and baptizing them, or bringing them to be baptized...without being baptized yourself?

Rhetorical question...but one to think about!

You said, "It's not essential, its recommended for the sake of profession, its an acknowledgement done before men in confession towards the need of Christ."

Nowhere in Scripture that I know of teaches that baptism is for the sake of profession or an acknowledgement done before men in confession towards the need of Christ.

I've looked at baptism forward and backwards for a number of years now. I've seen the arguments for and against whether or not it's essential for salvation. I've seen the arguments for and against whether or not infants should be baptized. I've seen the arguments for and against immersion versus sprinkling.

Nowhere in the many texts I've studied have I seen that baptism is for the sake of profession or an acknowledgment done before men in confession towards the need of Christ.

So, brother...I am in agreement with Webb and exhort you to go back to the book and re-study this issue...not whether or not it's necessary for salvation...but whether or not you should just give your pastor a call about setting up a time that you can obey the Lord in this.

 

[warfrog]

I agree with Webb here, Warfrog...you need to study the Bible more...not on whether or not baptism is essential for salvation.

But, on what we should be doing once saved.

If salvation were the only thing that is remotely important...then as soon as we believe we should just be put to death right then and there. Why not? If salvation is all that there is...it would save a lot of headache and heartache just to go on to eternity.

Just because something isn't necessary for salvation doesn't mean it isn't necessary as part of our vital walk with Christ.

Look at what Ephesians 2 says about works:

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

Why are we saved in the first place? We are saved, created in Christ Jesus for good works. We should walk in them.

Yes, we are baptized by the Holy Spirit. But, we are also to be baptized in water...Christ not only commands that we be so, but He commands that we baptize all who come to Him. In Matthew 28 Jesus is not commanding the Holy Spirit to go and make disciples, baptize them and to teach them to do ALL He has commanded us to do...He's telling us to do that. And, He isn't saying to think about it, or that if we want to He'd appreciate. He said, "GO and DO."

How are you doing on that anyway? How are you going forth and making disciples and baptizing them, or bringing them to be baptized...without being baptized yourself?

Rhetorical question...but one to think about!

You said, "It's not essential, its recommended for the sake of profession, its an acknowledgement done before men in confession towards the need of Christ."

Nowhere in Scripture that I know of teaches that baptism is for the sake of profession or an acknowledgement done before men in confession towards the need of Christ.

I've looked at baptism forward and backwards for a number of years now. I've seen the arguments for and against whether or not it's essential for salvation. I've seen the arguments for and against whether or not infants should be baptized. I've seen the arguments for and against immersion versus sprinkling.

Nowhere in the many texts I've studied have I seen that baptism is for the sake of profession or an acknowledgment done before men in confession towards the need of Christ.

So, brother...I am in agreement with Webb and exhort you to go back to the book and re-study this issue...not whether or not it's necessary for salvation...but whether or not you should just give your pastor a call about setting up a time that you can obey the Lord in this.

I've acknowledge the Lord, admitted He is required for redemption as my heart is filled with Him.
So Basically since ive fullfilled exactly what is required to be saved directly to you and other members, you would tell me that a sprinkle of water is still required in order to fulfill the baptism?
I've professed myself as a sinner before te Lord in requirement of His blood among men, which i cannot do unless my heart is before the Lord.

That is a work of faith and done before men, just as the thief did upon the cross, yet you decree it is essential that i add water to it for what? just in case?

Handy i am the Lords and I have faith that if it is required for my salvation, i wouldnt have recieved it through the Lord now, I have fullfilled exactly what the Lord commands ad it has been done so withou a sprinkle of water, if the sprinkle of water beomes necessary the Lord our God will apply it, this I know.

What you do, do in faith of Christ.

When I stand before the throne and if the Lord God will is that i sleep before i am sprinkled with water, the Lord isnt going to tell me, I have given you the Holy Spirit good servant for your heart was before me that you have confessed before men Christ the Lord risen, and walked in love, peace and faith, but you recieved the Holy Spirit without being water baptised, get away from Me wretched man!

He knows my heart handy, He knows i have faith that if it was a requirement that nothing could stop Him from His will in having it required and done upon me, nothing.

"Then those who gladly recieved his word were baptised; and that day about 3000 souls were added to them." that is a profession among men, they were glad in Peters words through the Holy Spirit, their hearts were smitten for the Lord and they performed the very action beforemen in profession as it is required. Baptism of water is a physical act of acceptance. An outer act of the inward.

So as ive said, profession, inward change which is then establised outwardly is what is required, that doesnt mean it has to be don with water, the theif on the cross had an inwardly change that he established outwardly through his profession, and the Lord told Him that on that day he would be with Him in paradise, no water required.

 

[Webb]

Hi Truth over Ttradition

Jesus body WAS in the grave, the grave given by Joseph, the grave with a heavy stone before its door, the grave with the Roman seal, BUT, where did His spirit go???????

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Hi Truth over Ttradition

Jesus body WAS in the grave, the grave given by Joseph, the grave with a heavy stone before its door, the grave with the Roman seal, BUT, where did His spirit go???????

Way to get to the heart of the issue Webb! I contend that we have no reason to believe his spirit went anywhere. Nowhere are we told about any activity of Jesus during the 3 days of his death. Assuming that his spirit went somewhere, anywhere is pure conjecture and is at best extremely biased and subject to the opinion of the person doing the assuming.
All we are told is that Jesus died and was then raised on the 3rd day. Scripture makes no distinction between the local of his remains.

 

[stovebolts]

Christ did not got to Hell, Hades or whatever one wants to call it! The bible needs to be re-read and re- thought on that issue.

Here is a piece of Jewish commentary on Psalms 84:7, just so we have a Jewish understanding, considering Jesus was not only a Jew and a "teacher" (moreh), but the Messiah.

This is what is meant by the verse "They who pass in the valley of weeping" (Psalms 84:7), the valley refers to the river or even to Gehinom itself. "Into a spring they shall transform it" (ibid.). Not only that, but even, "Also the blessings shall be encloaked by the 'moreh'" (ibid.). That is understood to mean that the blessings and gifts will enclothe one that passes through if he is a "moreh", an instructor of the Torah laws. From this we can understand a statement of the Sages that stipulates that a righteous person passing through Gehinom can take out some souls with himself. After the righteous person enclothes himself with these souls, then "they shall go from strength to strength"

 

[Webb]

Truth over Tradition wrote: ''I contend dthat we have no reason to believe his spirit went anywhere."

I have reason to believe His "spirit went" somewhere. Lk.23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Truth over Tradition wrote: ''I contend dthat we have no reason to believe his spirit went anywhere."

I have reason to believe His "spirit went" somewhere. Lk.23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

Amen!

[COLOR=#22222]Did Jesus Go to Hell?

More specifically, did Jesus go to hell between His death on Good Friday and His resurrection on Easter Sunday? The Apostles' Creed states that Jesus, "was crucified, dead, and buried. He descended into hell. The third day he rose again from the dead." The Athanasian Creed, speaking of Jesus, asserts, "Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead." Therefore, two of the three great ancient creeds affirm that Jesus "descended into hell" sometime between His crucifixion and resurrection. But is that what the Bible teaches?

The short answer to this question is: "No." The biblical authors were more accurate in their use of words than some of our Bible translators or creed writers. There are two Greek words for the abode of the dead. (Greek is the language in which the New Testament of the Bible was originally written.) Hell (Geenna in Greek, also called the lake of fire and the eternal fire) was made for the Devil and his minions (Matthew 25:41) and will be occupied by all the unrighteous after the last judgement (Revelation 19:20-21 and 20:10-15). There is no biblical evidence that anyone has gone there or will go there until after Jesus' Second Coming (Revelation 19:11-16). This includes Jesus Himself.

The other Greek word is Hadas (from which we get the English word Hades). This is the region of the dead. Before Jesus' ascension, the spirits of all people went to Hades. After His ascension, only the spirits of unbelievers go to Hades, while the spirits of believers go directly to be with the Lord (2 Corinthians 5:1-8). It is into this region that Jesus entered after His crucifixion (Acts 2:25-31 in which Peter quotes from Psalm 16:9-10). Ephesians 4:8-10 says that Jesus, "had descended into the lower parts of the earth." This may also speak of Jesus' visit to Hades before His ascension. Finally, Romans 10:7 refers to Jesus in "the abyss" while He was among the dead. After the final judgment, Hades will be cast into Hell (Revelation 20:14). Therefore, the longer answer is: "Yes, Jesus descended into Hades but not into Hell."

So, how did the idea of Jesus descending into Hell get incorporated into the church creeds? The early church taught that Jesus descended into Hades. The Old Roman form of the Apostles' Creed (about A.D. 140) did not have the phrase, "He descended into Hell", and it did not appear in the Nicene Creed (A.D. 325). It seems to have been a late addition (perhaps around A.D. 390). The phrase first appeared in the Creed of Aquileia, (4th century, in the Latin words descendit in inferna - descended into Hades). In addition, the Athanasian Creed, which does contain the phrase, may not have been written until the time of Charlemagne (8th century). So, why the addition? One possible explanation is that at the end of the fourth century (around A.D. 381) the church was battling the teachings of Apollinaris. He taught that Jesus was not fully human - He had a human body and soul, but a divine spirit. The church, on the other hand, taught that Jesus had to be fully human for His death to be a true death and an effective sacrifice for sin. To demonstrate that Jesus was fully human, with a human spirit, the church may have added the Latin phrase from the Creed of Aquileia to the more popular Apostles' Creed. By the time of the Middle Ages, the words Hell and Hades had become confused and Jesus was thought to have descended into Hell.

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/did-jesus-go-to-hell-faq.htm
[/COLOR]

 

[sburdine]

Just a couple of quick hits.

1). warfrog if you will go back to page 1 and read my post on the thief on the cross I think it will explain why we cannot go to him as an example for us today.

2). I am going to ask everyone to please realize that we cannot go to just one or two scriptures and form an opinion on what it takes to be saved. For example I could use 1 Pet. 3:21,

"There is also an antitype which now saves us --- baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,"

and say all we have to do and be baptized and don't have to believe, repent, confess Christ or do anything else. However I would not be rightly dividing the word of God. We must take all the scriptures into account.

 

[Webb]

Right!!!!

 

[Riverwolf]

As they say in the comic books - this ain't rocket science people.

I am constantly amazed by people who try to complicate such a simple thing.
If you want to study the Bible, fine. If you want to get baptized, fine. None of this is meant to be hard or hidden or some kind of Da vinci code to salvation. Jesus knew that the majority of us are stupid and he made it simple.


John 13:34-35


New King James Version (NKJV)

34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.â€

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

Truth over Tradition wrote: ''I contend dthat we have no reason to believe his spirit went anywhere."

I have reason to believe His "spirit went" somewhere. Lk.23:46: "And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost."

What was this spirit spoken of here a reference to? I believe it cannot be a reference to his soul because, a. it does NOT say that it is, and b. after his resurrection he tells Mary he had yet to go to the Father. I content that the spirit in question is a reference to what God gives to all men and animals alike to quicken us. This is what Solomon wrote about in Eccl 12 and what God breathed into Adam in Genesis that caused him to become a living soul. This spirit referenced here is a gift from God and NOT a part of the person, it is simply the breath of life.