Is baptism essential to salvation?

[Jake]

Webb,
I am in perfect agreement with all of your posts as well.

Listen, I have been on this forum for a long time and honestly, this isn't the first time this subject has come up, and it won't be the last for sure.

What I don't understand is why people want to create this hard line about baptism and then go off on these arguments just to prove something... and in doing so they completely miss the greater treasure, which is a closer relationship with Christ through baptism.

But the conversation never goes there. Instead, baptism is always spun as a work and some argue that it's required for salvation and others argue that it's not. I mean come on, do we really think we're that smart? Or do we just think that if we're smarter than the other guy we're right? And what purpose does this hold anyway because neither argument brings us closer to Jesus and without Jesus there isn't any salvation.. Period. Both parties miss the bigger point, and that is simply that baptism is about an intimate relationship with Christ, and it's done in light of the gospel of Christ. Now that's something worth arguing about IMHO.

I am young, but have yet to meet someone who is a believer and then says he doesn't want to get baptized, it's always with a resounding YES! It's time to be baptized.
Just my take.

 

[stovebolts]

Rockie,

Cyberjosh's father has not been baptized and he is a preacher. According to Cyberjosh, his Dad doesn't see a need to be baptized since he's been a Christian for so long and it was much later that he learned about baptism, that he does not see a "need" for it since he's been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Cyberjosh has adopted this teaching. What's sad, is that baptism has been so "watered down", we miss the beautiy in it's simplicity through strong and compelling arguments to justify our point of view in the matter.

What you will often hear is that there are numerous baptism. The most clear for many would be the baptism of the Holy Spirit and as such, they separate this baptism from water baptism as if God can't grant the Holy Spirit if you go into the baptismal pool. It's an argument based again on works and they can't reconcile scriptures, so in their mind it's either an a or b proposition.

 

[Webb]

Agreed!
However its not enough to say "I love Jesus" and even be sincere. One can love Jesus and yet be wrong. The disciples of John no doubte were loving and sincere, yet wrong, and Paul thought it not incorrect to correct their mistaken views on baptism.
I was christened by my parents as a baby. I have no recollection of that at all. I later became a member of a denomination and was sprinkled for baptism. I did love Jesus then too. I continued to study my Bible and learned baptism was a burial and began looking for a church that practiced a burial. I was then baptized because I loved Jesus and Jesus was baptized and I wanted to follow Him. Yes I learned as I continued searching the scripture that although baptism was a burial, I couldn't be baptized like Jesus because it was for the remission of sin and Jesus had no sin and I did. I was immersed but didn't understand it was for the remission of sins. I went to the preacher who immersed me and told him he may have understood it was for the remission of sins but I did not and asked him to immerse me again this time understanding it was for the remission of sins. (later, years later, I had the privilege of baptizing that preacher myself). Continuing to study I found the church which is identified in the Bible. No one suggested I should be re-immersed since I had already been immersed for the remission of sins. Yet it continued to bother me that since the church I had come out from was a denomination maybe the Lord saw a difference I could not and it was a matter I could take care of easily. Thus upon calling an elder of the church to meet me at the church building after he got off work I was immersed again this time for the remission of sins and this time knowing what I was doing.

Thus I have been christened once, sprinkled once and immersed 3 times. Some will think this trivial and me nuts yet I believe it is important TO DO WHAT THE LORD SAYS DO IN THE WAY THE LORD SAYS TO DO IT AND FOR THE REASON HE SAYS TO DO IT. As Paul lived in good conscience before God, Acts 23:1 which included even the days he made havoc of the church, so have I from the time I was sprinkled for baptism unto this day. YET I HAVE BEEN WRONG EVEN WHEN LOVING HIM AND THERE IS ONLY ONE BAPTISM, Eph.4:5.
I dislike long posts and I apologise for the length of this one.

 

[stovebolts]

Webb,

Thank you so much for sharing your testimony!

The fact that you've experienced all that really shows the divisioin within the Church, and honestly, it's sad.

I am glad that you were able to search out the scriptures in love seeking a deeper relationship with God, and have come to the conclusion that you came to in regard to baptism. Certainly, there are many more treasures to be found! However, it seems to me that we need somebody smarter than us to teach us otherwise what is clear in scripture in regard to baptism ;)

 

[Jake]

Rockie,

Cyberjosh's father has not been baptized and he is a preacher. According to Cyberjosh, his Dad doesn't see a need to be baptized since he's been a Christian for so long and it was much later that he learned about baptism, that he does not see a "need" for it since he's been baptized by the Holy Spirit. Cyberjosh has adopted this teaching. What's sad, is that baptism has been so "watered down", we miss the beautiy in it's simplicity through strong and compelling arguments to justify our point of view in the matter.

What you will often hear is that there are numerous baptism. The most clear for many would be the baptism of the Holy Spirit and as such, they separate this baptism from water baptism as if God can't grant the Holy Spirit if you go into the baptismal pool. It's an argument based again on works and they can't reconcile scriptures, so in their mind it's either an a or b proposition.

Cyberjosh is cool, but I still don't get why they would chose not to do something the Lord did Himself, and over and over again we see the apostles telling people to repent and be baptized, it's an act of obedience in addition to dying and the rebirth, a new creation. I wonder if they take communion?

 

[stovebolts]

Rockie,
Yes, Josh is cool, and I have a high level of respect for him and I don't consider him anything less than a full brother in Christ, even though we disagree on the simplicity of scripture in this area.

I've learned a lot from Josh in the few years I've known him, and I suspect I'll learn much more from him in the coming years.

 

[Jake]

Rockie,
Yes, Josh is cool, and I have a high level of respect for him and I don't consider him anything less than a full brother in Christ, even though we disagree on the simplicity of scripture in this area.

I've learned a lot from Josh in the few years I've known him, and I suspect I'll learn much more from him in the coming years.

I agree about Josh. But I still don't understand why a person would not be willing to do something that the Lord Himself did and not do something that He told us to do. It's like starting an entire new belief system and passing it down. No offense to Josh and his Dad, I honestly do not understand.

 

[stovebolts]

I can only go by our past conversations, but it seemed to me that he said that his father was already a preacher when he learned about baptism, and if I recall, he viewed baptism as an entry point, and since he had 'advanced' in Christianity, he didn't feel the need to be baptized. I really don't want to speak for Josh, let alone his Dad and I am worried that I'm not representing his position accuratly. I know Josh wrote an entire paper on Baptism which would explain his position along with his reasoning. I'm sure you could pm him and he'd send you the link.

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

I would like to hear what people here think. I definitely say no, and am about to do a debate on it on another website.

Let me use a simple syllogism. I of course will be using more proof in the actual debate, but for now I'll just use this. When the debate starts I might post some more arguments here.

_______

P.1 Salvation was gained without baptism.

Conclusion: Baptism is not necessary for salvation.

If I am able to prove premise one, then I prove that baptism is not essential.


Defense of first premise:

P.1 The thief on the cross, next too Jesus went too heaven the night he died.

P.2 The thief could not have been able to have been baptized as he repented on the cross, and died shortly after on the cross.

Conclusion: If someone has gone too heaven without being baptized that means baptism is not essential to salvation. The thief went to heaven without being baptized therefore salvation was gained without baptism, and thus baptism is not essential to salvation.

What salvation did the thief next to Jesus on Calvary gain? In other words, I'm trying to figure out WHY you are equating Jesus telling this person that he'd be with Jesus in Paradise (Jesus didn't say Heaven mind you, he said Paradise BTW) with salvation. To make such a leap you much make a number of assumptions for which I doubt you have reasonable evidence for.

There is no reason to believe that ANYONE, including Jesus went to Heaven without first being baptized. There is equally no reason to believe that the thief went to Heaven based on the passages in the gospels.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

he'd be with Jesus in Paradise (Jesus didn't say Heaven mind you, he said Paradise BTW)

What else would we consider Heaven to be?

 

[TRUTH over TRADITION]

What else would we consider Heaven to be?

Why the need to read Heaven into this statement when in fact Jesus did not mention Heaven to the thief? If you recall, the garden in the east of Eden (Edom) was called the Paradise of Delights and at times just referred to as Paradise. There is no need to automatically insert Heaven when the term Paradise is used.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

I'm sorry this is off topic, my apologies to the OP and staff.

Nor is there any reason not to.

Where is Jesus? Is He not sitting on the right of God in Heaven, and did not He say, today you will be with me in paradise?

Why must something so simple be made something it's not? A little common sense goes a long way.


It is God's will that we be baptized (that is why He Himself was baptized, so that we would follow) after we accept Him as our Lord and Savior, but baptism in and of itself is an outward revelation to the world of what has taken place in our life and has no other affects in our salvation, other than getting us wet.

Baptism without salvation is a waste of time, and is nothing more than an act of works.

 

[Webb]

Truth over Tradition makes a good point. Paradise is not heaven, and that in itself is another study for another thread. As proof Jesus did not go to heaven when he made His statemen to the thief about Paradice is seen in Jn.20:17 when in the garden following His resurrection He said "---touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father.'' The time of His ascension is recorded in Acts 1: 9-11.

 

[warfrog]

OK heres my situation and I beleive for those of you who are enjoying this discussion it may be of an interest to you for discusson.

When the Lord was revealed to me and I accepted the gift of His blood, noone baptised me with water, noone even offered nor told me to go get baptised or provided the possibility of it being done.

It also hasent occured yet and that was many years ago. Now I can drive an hour away and im sure a pastor would do this for me.
However i have prayed and told God when He wills He can set it up, that all may be done of His accordance, and that is where my heart remains and has remained.

So i am unbaptized with water, i have the Holy Spirit working in me through the promise of Christ, my Lord and Saviour. I will remain unbaptized until His will be done regarding the issue of being baptized with water, so now, if i was to go to sleep without being baptised whom of you would tell me I am not following the commandments of God nor do i love Him?

So what do you guys really say?

Is it essential for me? It wasnt for the theif. It wasnt for the O.T saints.
Can a mans heart be for the Lord yet that man not be water baptised?

Now dont get me wrong, if a brethren walks up to me and says allow me to baptise you in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, i will praise God and thank the servatude of my brethren and be baptised with water, or if its brought up in my life personally in some other form.

 

[warfrog]

Truth over Tradition makes a good point. Paradise is not heaven, and that in itself is another study for another thread. As proof Jesus did not go to heaven when he made His statemen to the thief about Paradice is seen in Jn.20:17 when in the garden following His resurrection He said "---touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father.'' The time of His ascension is recorded in Acts 1: 9-11.

I believe He went to Abrahams bosom. The theif shall be gathered with all of His in the resurrection of the righteous.

 

[FrustratedForumer]

Truth over Tradition makes a good point. Paradise is not heaven, and that in itself is another study for another thread. As proof Jesus did not go to heaven when he made His statemen to the thief about Paradice is seen in Jn.20:17 when in the garden following His resurrection He said "---touch me not for I have not yet ascended to my Father.'' The time of His ascension is recorded in Acts 1: 9-11.

Sorry, but where did he go then? This makes no sense.

 

[EricTheBaptist]

One of the reasons I know long believe in Orthodox is because they believe YOU MUST be baptized to go to Heaven. After doing intense studying on John 3:16 and Romans 10:13 I have concluded that it is not required.

 

[Classik]

One of the reasons I know long believe in Orthodox is because they believe YOU MUST be baptized to go to Heaven. After doing intense studying on John 3:16 and Romans 10:13 I have concluded that it is not required.

John 3:16 ... That whoever BELIEVES in Him Should not perish but have everlasting life. I think baptism is part of that BELIEF on Him. He instructs us to...

 

[Webb]

Warfrog maybe you need to study the Bible more on the subject.

 

[Webb]

Eric the Baptist maybe your study had not been "intense" enough. Jesus, Paul and Peter make baptism (water baptism) essential to salvation.