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Is Corporate Worship Important or Necessary?

Nick, I don`t think people are fully hearing Strangelove out. He has stated a couple of times that he is not a part of a physical fellowship of Believers because there is not a church in his area other than the catholic church and I don`t want to open a debate on that, but everyone knows that there are beliefs in the catholic church that are completely contrary to Protestant beliefs and vice versa. So some catholics would never feel it is acceptable to enter a protestant church just as some protestants would never feel comfortable entering a catholic church and some orthodox would not feel comfortable entering a catholic or protestant church for very fundamental reasons based on each one`s faith so I don`t think it is good to push any of these in the others church when their beliefs are so strong and incompatible.

Oooh yeah....thats prolly me...orthodox. So you could count me out of pretty much any church around.

But perhaps if people really want to help Strangelove, instead of banging him over the head for not going to church, we could pray that he could find some Christians in his area to fellowship with. I think based on what he has said, that may be the most effective thing anyone here can do. If he could just find 1 or 2 other Christians they could have a home fellowship together. I mean shouldn`t we live out our faith?

I've got thousands I can fellowship with right here. And I luv it. If loving physical attention is yer worry, dont, I get plenty of that from my family and my son is a budding Christian. Why do you guys beat up on these forums so much? Christ gave this technology for us for a reason.

If a new brother in Christ has no other person to fellowship with in person, instead of beating him up over this we can take action and pray for him. I don`t think he would take offense to that, would you Strangelove?

No I wouldn't take offence darlin'. You're very sweet.

I'm praying for those who are trapped in apostate churches too.

Doc.
 
Placing our need in God's hands and trusting Him to lead us, He will direct us to a place of worship that he wants us to be planted in. It isn't something we should be deciding for ourselves, and in the case where a Christian churches are not abundant, God will ALWAYS make a way for us to obey Him in meeting together regularly with other believers.

Amen. And God has done so with me...and lead me to fellowship online. Regularly. No one is more surprised than me that I'm doing this. If you'de told me two years ago that I would be spending 14 hours out of every day talking to Christians about faith I'd of laughed my head off. :)
 
Oooh yeah....thats prolly me...orthodox. So you could count me out of pretty much any church around.


Doc.

By the way, I imagine you realize this forum is about as unorthodox as you can get! There are muslims, atheists, and a few I don`t know what religions running about on this forum as well as all different denominations.
 
That`s a good prayer because unfortunately there are a lot of those churches, but that is a different subject so I won`t go there.

Some will not even admit that aposatacy happens in churches. :screwloose
 
By the way, I imagine you realize this forum is about as unorthodox as you can get! There are muslims, atheists, and a few I don`t know what religions running about on this forum as well as all different denominations.

I know Sister. But the advantage of the forums is that we can get many points of view from all different denominations and try to work out what is the truth between us. It's very exciting to have all denominations together I think. Very edifying for the Body as a whole.

Plus not being grouped together face to face means that we don't feel bound to please or agree with eachother on all issues of the faith. A great way to debate.
 
Wow, 18 pages and counting.

Food for thought.

People make up the Church, not buildings. In the first century church, and as recorded in Acts, the first to be called "Christians" were actually Jews and they did not forsake the synagogues on the Sabbath, yet they came together on the 1st day of the week to break bread (Acts 20:7).

If we go way back to the Exodus account, we see that God authorized the Tabernacle as a place for the community of God's children to come together for the purpose of corporate worship, and I'd like to add that the Tabernacle was but a copy of heavenly things and of course, when we're all in heaven we'll all be together under one assembly for the purpose of worship.

God has always been about community... no one Christian walks the resurrected life alone. We're in this together because as the visible Body of Christ, we're all important and serve a function. And even though we serve in different manners, we rely on the whole as we look to the head, and God has authorized Corporate worship as a time for the Body of Christ to assemble and lift up His name, while edifying one another.

Now, I realize that some desire house churches for their worship setting, and as such this is biblical as it can be seen as a form of corporate worship. But apostasy can strike a house church as easily as it can a larger congregation... probably easier since most house churches don't pattern their governing structure after the 1st century model (as well as many churches) where Elders oversee the congregation and they delegate the daily tasks to deacons. Instead, what we see is a pattern where a house church would be ran by a primary leader who is not under the authority of Elders.

There are pro's and con's to both situations but as far as apostacy, again, the problem isn't Corporate worship, it's about not following the pattern set forth by scripture for governing the Body of Christ.

Point in case, Doc, how many elders do you have in your congregation, and what do your Deacon's do?

Grace and Peace.
 
Re: What is your church like?

Why is the subject of baptism taboo when it is in the Bible and it clearly ties in with this subject since baptism is usually done in the church? However, I do believe he could be baptized outside the church since many of the baptisms in the NT were outside the church. I think if he wants to answer this question, he should, but if he does not, he can simply ignore it.

pjt.

Baptism is linked in Matthew 28 to the Great Commission the Lord Jesus gave to His disciples, to go preach the Gospel.

(It's symbolic, of course, rather than the means of grace.)
 
Wow, 18 pages and counting.

Food for thought.

People make up the Church, not buildings. In the first century church, and as recorded in Acts, the first to be called "Christians" were actually Jews and they did not forsake the synagogues on the Sabbath, yet they came together on the 1st day of the week to break bread (Acts 20:7).

If we go way back to the Exodus account, we see that God authorized the Tabernacle as a place for the community of God's children to come together for the purpose of corporate worship, and I'd like to add that the Tabernacle was but a copy of heavenly things and of course, when we're all in heaven we'll all be together under one assembly for the purpose of worship.

God has always been about community... no one Christian walks the resurrected life alone. We're in this together because as the visible Body of Christ, we're all important and serve a function. And even though we serve in different manners, we rely on the whole as we look to the head, and God has authorized Corporate worship as a time for the Body of Christ to assemble and lift up His name, while edifying one another.

Great. all of that fits the forums or house churches or church buildings or Christians who meet on the corner or in a market. Beautiful.

Now, I realize that some desire house churches for their worship setting, and as such this is biblical as it can be seen as a form of corporate worship. But apostasy can strike a house church as easily as it can a larger congregation... probably easier since most house churches don't pattern their governing structure after the 1st century model (as well as many churches) where Elders oversee the congregation and they delegate the daily tasks to deacons. Instead, what we see is a pattern where a house church would be ran by a primary leader who is not under the authority of Elders.

What is with all this talk of governing and authority?

Tell me Jeff are you under the authority of you're elders? It's a simple yes or no.

There are pro's and con's to both situations but as far as apostacy, again, the problem isn't Corporate worship, it's about not following the pattern set forth by scripture for governing the Body of Christ.

The problem is clearly that people are off base with their simple doctrine. Law-keeping, mis-understanding of who God's chosen people are, politics, error in interpretation of prophecy leaving way for future deception, movement of churches away from the simple Gospel message and increasing involvment in 'community' issues.......... are all main reasons for apostacy. Nothing to do with governing the Body of Christ. What does that mean anyway? Am I apostate coz I dont fit 1st century Body governement?

Point in case, Doc, how many elders do you have in your congregation, and what do your Deacon's do?

I dont know how many elders I have coz the admins decided not to allow us to put our age under our avatars.

The only elder I have that I'm sure about is my mentor who is 51 years old and very wise.

If I had a deacon then their job would be a servant. What do your deacons do? Order you around?
 
What is with all this talk of governing and authority?

Tell me Jeff are you under the authority of you're elders? It's a simple yes or no.

First off, we need to look at what an elder is. It's more than somebody who's older than you.

An Elder and Deacons as defined by scripture.
1 Timothy 3
1 Here is a trustworthy saying: Whoever aspires to be an overseer desires a noble task. 2 Now the overseer is to be above reproach, faithful to his wife, temperate, self-controlled, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, 3 not given to drunkenness, not violent but gentle, not quarrelsome, not a lover of money. 4 He must manage his own family well and see that his children obey him, and he must do so in a manner worthy of full respect. 5 (If anyone does not know how to manage his own family, how can he take care of God’s church?) 6 He must not be a recent convert, or he may become conceited and fall under the same judgment as the devil. 7 He must also have a good reputation with outsiders, so that he will not fall into disgrace and into the devil’s trap. 8 In the same way, deacons are to be worthy of respect, sincere, not indulging in much wine, and not pursuing dishonest gain. 9 They must keep hold of the deep truths of the faith with a clear conscience. 10 They must first be tested; and then if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 In the same way, the women are to be worthy of respect, not malicious talkers but temperate and trustworthy in everything.
12 A deacon must be faithful to his wife and must manage his children and his household well. 13 Those who have served well gain an excellent standing and great assurance in their faith in Christ Jesus.


Am I under the authority of an Elder?
Hebrews 3:17 Have confidence in your leaders and submit to their authority, because they keep watch over you as those who must give an account. Do this so that their work will be a joy, not a burden, for that would be of no benefit to you.

1 Peter 5 1 To the elders among you, I appeal as a fellow elder and a witness of Christ’s sufferings who also will share in the glory to be revealed: 2 Be shepherds of God’s flock that is under your care, watching over them—not because you must, but because you are willing, as God wants you to be; not pursuing dishonest gain, but eager to serve; 3 not lording it over those entrusted to you, but being examples to the flock. 4 And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the crown of glory that will never fade away. 5 In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders. All of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, because,
“God opposes the proud
but shows favor to the humble.” 6 Humble yourselves, therefore, under God’s mighty hand, that he may lift you up in due time. 7 Cast all your anxiety on him because he cares for you.


If an Elder upholds his qualifications for Eldership, then the flock is to submit to their combined authority. If an elder disqualifies himself then he is not to be followed and his joint authority is stripped from him.

James 3:1 Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.


Again, if we look at the many churches today, they do not govern by the pattern set forth by Paul. Often you will find that the Preacher functions as monarch having the final say, even when he himself does not qualify as an Elder, let alone a deacon.


But lets say for the sake of argument you could find a church that patterned itself after the examples in the first century, and that which agreed with what Paul and Peter wrote about Elders who would govern a congregation autonomously while being held accountable to the congregation through the basic principals of Christ as set forth... Would you attend?
 
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Am I under the authority of an Elder?

Yes thats what I've asked you. Does you're elder have authority over you?

Don't answer me with that tired old Hebrews 13:17 passage that I've explained to so many people over and over again. You cannot reconcile that passage with Jesus' teachings without doing a proper lexicon study on it to see what the Greek words can actually mean. Forget about whatever English translation you're using and study it!

Just give me a simple yes or no. Do you're elders have authority over you?

But lets say for the sake of argument you could find a church that patterned itself after the examples in the first century, and that which agreed with what Paul and Peter wrote about Elders who would govern a congregation autonomously while being held accountable to the congregation through the basic principals of Christ as set forth... Would you attend?

ABSOLUTELY! Why wouldn't I!?

(but I still dont like the word govern :) I dont think elders or teachers or deacons are told to govern in the bible)
 
Don't answer me with that tired old Hebrews 13:17 passage that I've explained to so many people over and over again. You cannot reconcile that passage with Jesus' teachings without doing a proper lexicon study on it to see what the Greek words can actually mean. Forget about whatever English translation you're using and study it!

Never saw your exegesis on Hebrews 13:17... No bother though, we still have 1 Peter 5:5 In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders.

Just give me a simple yes or no. Do you're elders have authority over you?
No, Elders do not have authority over me. Only Christ has authority over me. However, scripture is clear that we are to submit to the authority of our Elders. This is not the same as an Elder having authority over me, but rather it is a submission of my will over the will of the combined elder ship as a whole when it comes to governing the congregation as a whole. I would add to this statement by stating that scripture is clear on the qualifications of an Elder.

Stovebolts said:
But lets say for the sake of argument you could find a church that patterned itself after the examples in the first century, and that which agreed with what Paul and Peter wrote about Elders who would govern a congregation autonomously while being held accountable to the congregation through the basic principals of Christ as set forth... Would you attend?

ABSOLUTELY! Why wouldn't I!?

(but I still dont like the word govern :) I dont think elders or teachers or deacons are told to govern in the bible)

This is how the churches of Christ are governed. Each is autonomous from other congregations and is both governed and financially supported by it's local members. BTW, this doesn't mean that the church is exempt from corruption. You won't find a perfect church....

When I say govern, what I mean is that they lead the congregation both spiritually as well as over seeing the various ministries. It is the role of the Eldership to make sure apostasy doesn't creep in, and it is the role of the members to make sure the eldership remains qualified..
 
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Never saw your exegesis on Hebrews 13:17... No bother though, we still have 1 Peter 5:5 In the same way, you who are younger, submit yourselves to your elders.

The general point is that there is no authority over the flock. There is the need for the flock to yield to the position of the elder. To withdraw from argument. To not make a scene and undermine him infront of others. If there is disagreement walk away. That is what I get from the verse. Authority is not even mentioned in Hebrews 13:17. Likewise 1 Pet 5:5 talks about having humility towards elders and eachother.

No, Elders do not have authority over me. Only Christ has authority over me. However, scripture is clear that we are to submit to the authority of our Elders. This is not the same as an Elder having authority over me, but rather it is a submission of my will over the will of the combined elder ship as a whole when it comes to governing the congregation as a whole. I would add to this statement by stating that scripture is clear on the qualifications of an Elder.

No scripture doesnt say to submit to their authority. But I see you have the right idea of what it means so we are in basic agreement. If you're pastor orders you to do something, you have every right not to do it.

If he's simply saying something you dont agree with, you should yield the argument to him and walk away. Which allows him to feel right and give a good account ragardless. If the matter remains unresolved and you've tested the spirits scripturally, you can seperate yourself from him.

This is how the churches of Christ are governed. Each is autonomous from other congregations and is both governed and financially supported by it's local members. BTW, this doesn't mean that the church is exempt from corruption. You won't find a perfect church....

When I say govern, what I mean is that they lead the congregation both spiritually as well as over seeing the various ministries. It is the role of the Eldership to make sure apostasy doesn't creep in, and it is the role of the members to make sure the eldership remains qualified..

That sounds dandy. :thumbsup
 
The general point is that there is no authority over the flock.
:confused Ummm... as upright members and as role models of Christ's Church, they are tasked with the overseeing of the members. By very definition alone, yielding our authority to their authority shows authority in and of itself :D

Authority: the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

This is why the qualifications of an Elder are so stringent. If they cannot settle matters in their own house, how can they settle matters for those they are trying to lead? Furthermore, when an issue arrises in the church, it is to be brought before the elders and their combined wisdom decides the right path.

We don't take being an Elder lightly. Much is demanded by scripture for one to hold such a position. But this is more than simple scriptural understanding that the Elder must know because an Elder needs to be a living example of scripture.

A child is to submit his will, to the will of his parents and in the same way, members of the congregation are to submit their will to the Elders. This is authoritative by nature and thus scriptures are clear that we are to submit to their authority.


There is the need for the flock to yield to the position of the elder. To withdraw from argument. To not make a scene and undermine him infront of others. If there is disagreement walk away. That is what I get from the verse. Authority is not even mentioned in Hebrews 13:17. Likewise 1 Pet 5:5 talks about having humility towards elders and eachother.

It's not only about yielding from the argument, it's about following instruction. For instance, lets say you disagree about steeling when the bible is clear on the matter and you get brought before the matter. To submit to their authority means that you trust their judgment, but more so, you heed their instruction to stop steeling.

No scripture doesnt say to submit to their authority. But I see you have the right idea of what it means so we are in basic agreement. If you're pastor orders you to do something, you have every right not to do it.
Lets get on the same page here. An Elder is not ordained to demand any task from you. By way of example, I know the Mormons are forced into several community projects. This type of behavior is not the type I'm addressing. Scripture is clear that deacons are assigned to do the tasks of the church, but furthermore, they are volunteers who wish to do the work. Scripture is clear on this and the Elders have no such authority to make anyone do anything along these lines.

But lets say your a liar or a thief, or you beat your wife. It is well within the Elders authority to tell you to be honest, giving and gentle and to hold you to these standards. Lest they be hypocryates, this is why these qualities must exist within an elder as part of their qualification.

If he's simply saying something you dont agree with, you should yield the argument to him and walk away. Which allows him to feel right and give a good account ragardless. If the matter remains unresolved and you've tested the spirits scripturally, you can seperate yourself from him.

See above...
 
:confused Ummm... as upright members and as role models of Christ's Church, they are tasked with the overseeing of the members. By very definition alone, yielding our authority to their authority shows authority in and of itself :D

Authority: the power to determine, adjudicate, or otherwise settle issues or disputes; jurisdiction; the right to control, command, or determine.

Theres no scripture saying we have to yield to the elders authority. I dunno where yer getting this from. Did you look at the Greek of Hebrews 13:17? Authority ISN'T there!

A child is to submit his will, to the will of his parents and in the same way, members of the congregation are to submit their will to the Elders. This is authoritative by nature and thus scriptures are clear that we are to submit to their authority.

No it doesnt say that. It just says yield to them. Nothing about authority.

It's not only about yielding from the argument, it's about following instruction. For instance, lets say you disagree about steeling when the bible is clear on the matter and you get brought before the matter. To submit to their authority means that you trust their judgment, but more so, you heed their instruction to stop steeling.

We can heed their advice. We can look to their example. But we dont have to follow their orders. You're regressing here Jeff.

Lets get on the same page here. An Elder is not ordained to demand any task from you. By way of example, I know the Mormons are forced into several community projects. This type of behavior is not the type I'm addressing. Scripture is clear that deacons are assigned to do the tasks of the church, but furthermore, they are volunteers who wish to do the work. Scripture is clear on this and the Elders have no such authority to make anyone do anything along these lines.

So we have to follow their instructions but they cant demand tasks? What if they instruct you to pick up their groceris. Your in a bind no?

But lets say your a liar or a thief, or you beat your wife. It is well within the Elders authority to tell you to be honest, giving and gentle and to hold you to these standards. Lest they be hypocryates, this is why these qualities must exist within an elder as part of their qualification.

No they are not allowed to tell us to do anything. They can advise.
 
What can a local church cover me from that Christ and His Word can't?



No true Christian has any need to fear. What gave you that impression?

Would you be scared if you couldn't access your church building?

You are derisive and antagonistic in your approach to church membership. Until you come to understand the word of God concerning this, I don't believe you will advance far in your walk with God.

People do not grow beyond the point of their disobedience. They become stuck where they are and will not go further until they deal with it with God's help. It is about submission to Him and His word.
 
I know Sister. But the advantage of the forums is that we can get many points of view from all different denominations and try to work out what is the truth between us. It's very exciting to have all denominations together I think. Very edifying for the Body as a whole.

Plus not being grouped together face to face means that we don't feel bound to please or agree with eachother on all issues of the faith. A great way to debate.

That is not what church is[FONT=Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Calibri,Geneva,sans-serif] about. You are enjoying a social club atmosphere, only.[/FONT]
 
Re: What is your church like?

pjt.

Baptism is linked in Matthew 28 to the Great Commission the Lord Jesus gave to His disciples, to go preach the Gospel.

(It's symbolic, of course, rather than the means of grace.)

I agree.
 
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