Christian Forums

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

  • Focus on the Family

    Strengthening families through biblical principles.

    Focus on the Family addresses the use of biblical principles in parenting and marriage to strengthen the family.

  • Guest, Join Papa Zoom today for some uplifting biblical encouragement! --> Daily Verses
  • The Gospel of Jesus Christ

    Heard of "The Gospel"? Want to know more?

    There is salvation in no other, for there is not another name under heaven having been given among men, by which it behooves us to be saved."

Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Donations

Total amount
$1,642.00
Goal
$5,080.00

SolaScriptura

2024 Supporter
Is Creation By or Through Jesus Christ?

Is Jesus Christ the actual Creator of the heavens and the earth, or is He simply the secondary cause?

The early Church heretic, Origen, who lives in the 3rd century, wrote on John 1:3;

“'All things came into being through him'. The agent 'through whom' never has the first place but always the second...Thus if all things were brought into being through the Word, it is not by him but by one greater and mightier than the Word. And who would this be but the Father?" (Henry Bettenson; The Early Christian Fathers; Origen, Comm. in Ioannem, ii.10 (6),p. 240)

This theology has also been adopted by some, like Dr George Ladd, who wrote in his theology:

“John asserts that the Logos was the agent of creation. He is not the ultimate source of creation, but the agent through whom God, the ultimate source, created the world. This same theology is expressed in Paul's words: that all things come from (ek) God through (dia) Christ (I Cor.8:6; see also Col.1:16)” (A Theology of the New Testament, p.242. 1977 edition)

By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?

Further, what about the verses in the Bible, like Genesis 1:1, where it clearly says, that “In the beginning GOD Created”? Nothing about Creating THROUGH the Son? What about Isaiah 44:24, “Thus says the Lord, your Redeemer, who formed you from the womb: “I am the Lord, who made all things, who alone stretched out the heavens, who spread out the earth by myself,” and 45.12, “I made the earth and created man on it; it was my hands that stretched out the heavens, and I commanded all their host.”; and 48:13, “My hand laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand spread out the heavens; when I call to them, they stand forth together.” Nehemiah 9:6, “You alone are the LORD. You created the heavens, the highest heavens with all their host, the earth and all that is on it, the seas and all that is in them. You give life to all things, and the heavenly host worships You.”. Psalm 96:5, “For all the gods of the nations are idols, but it is the LORD who made the heavens.”. That God never used a “secondary agent” to Create. What do we understand when it says, “alone...by Myself”? And, “My Hands”, etc, etc? None of this says in any way, that God somehow Created THROUGH a “lesser” Person, the Lord Jesus Christ, as some suppose! For those who believe that Jesus Christ is not GOD, but a lesser Being, not equal to the Father. It must be asked, IF, Jesus Christ is the “secondary agent” in Creation, and then we have Genesis 1:1, which clearly says that God Created, and the other passages, in the Old Testament, that say this. Jesus Christ is either THE Creator, or He had nothing whatsoever to do in the Creating of the heavens and the earth.

There is much evidence in the New Testament, that is clear that Jesus Christ did Create the entire universe.

It is also clear from Hebrews 2:10, that God the Father is The Creator of the universe;

“For it became Him, for Whom are all things, and through Whom are all things, in bringing many children to glory, to make the Author of their salvation perfect through sufferings”

The “αὐτῷ” (Him) here is God the Father, and “τὸν ἀρχηγὸν τῆς σωτηρίας αὐτῶν” (The Author of their (many children) salvation), is Jesus Christ. Here we have, “δι’ ὃν τὰ πάντα καὶ δι’ οὗ τὰ πάντα”, where the Greek preposition “διά”, used twice, translate into English by, “for”, and “through”. In both cases the preposition is in the genitive case. This is the same preposition, in the same case, that is used in places like John 1:3, for Jesus Christ. So, why do some understand that John 1:3, means that Jesus Christ is “the agent of Creation”; and when the same preposition in the same case, is used for the Father, it does not mean “agency”, but, “source”? Clearly this is more to do with “theology”, than what the Bible actually Teaches. I cannot agree with Greek works like the grammar by H E Dana and J R Mantey, where they say on the use of “διά”, in John 1:3 and Hebrews 1:2, when used for Jesus Christ:

“Although διά is occasionally used to express agency, it does not approximate to the full strength of ὑπό. This distinction throws light on Jesus' relation to the creation, implying that Jesus was not the absolute, independent creator, but rather the intermediate agent in creation. see Jn.1:3, πάντα δι’ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο; Heb.1:2, δι’ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας ” ( A Manual Grammar of the Greek New Testament, p.102)

They did not refer to Hebrews 2:10, in their examination of this preposition. It is clear from its use here, and elsewhere, that it is not only used to show “intermediate agent”, otherwise we must ask the question, who Created “through” God the Father, as the Greek could mean in this verse? As in Romans 11:36, where we also read, “οτι εξ αυτου και δι αυτου και εις αυτον τα παντα (For of Him, and through Him, and to Him, are all things)”, the Greek preposition “διά”, also is used for “the author of the action”. If we are going to take this meaning when used for the Father, as it is in Hebrews 2:10, and Romans 11:36, then why not when used for Jesus Christ?

As in Romans 11:36, where it refers to God the Father, we have in Colossians 1:16, the words, “ἐν αὐτῷ…δι’ αὐτοῦ καὶ εἰς αὐτὸν” (in Him…through Him and for Him), which are used for Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ is THE Creator, as “IN Him and THROUGH Him and FOR Him”, is the Universe. In verse 17 Paul continues, “ καὶ αὐτός ἐστιν πρὸ πάντων καὶ τὰ πάντα ἐν αὐτῷ συνέστηκεν”. That is, “and He IS before all things and all things in Him consist”. Creation DEPENDS on Jesus Christ! The Greek preposition, “ἐν”, having the same force as in Acts 17:28, “ἐν αὐτῷ γὰρ ζῶμεν καὶ κινούμεθα καὶ ἐσμέν” (for in Him we live, and move and exist), where God is the “source” of all life. There is an interesting variant reading in John 1:4, which dates from the early 2nd century in Greek, “ἐν αὐτῷ ζωὴ ἐστιν” (in Him IS Life), and not, “ζωὴ ἦν” (was life), which is the “source” of life. In fact, in Acts 3:15, the Apostle Peter calls Jesus Christ, “τον δε αρχηγον της ζωης”, which is, “the Prince of life” (KJV). “αρχηγον” means, “the author, founder, originator, first-cause”.

In Revelation 3:14, Jesus describes Himself as “ἡ ἀρχὴ τῆς κτίσεως τοῦ θεοῦ”, which is, “the Beginning of the Creation of God”. “ἀρχὴ”, here does not mean, “the first to be Created”, which is what the Jehovah's Witnesses understand the words to mean, as they corrupt the English here, to read, “the beginning of the creation by God”. Notice how they misrepresent what the Greek says, by inserting “BY” God, to make Jesus Christ the first-created. John did not write, “τοῦ ὑπό θεοῦ”, which would require the Greek preposition “ὑπό”, to be used. Interesting that in this same chapter of Revelation, in verses 1 and 12, as elsewhere, John writes, “τοῦ θεοῦ”, as he does in verse 14. And yet in these places, the JW's translate into English, “of God”, which is what the genitive case means!If “ἀρχὴ” here means “first to be created”, then there would have been no need to insert in English, the preposition “BY”. The Greek lexicon by the Unitarian, Dr Joseph Thayer, says of the word, “ἀρχὴ”, “that by which anything begins to be, the origin, active cause”. Which means that Jesus Christ here says that He IS The Creator.
 
Cont...

We have the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator of the entire universe. In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

“And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

These words are from Psalm 102:24-27, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

“I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

It is impossible for the words in Psalm to be used for Jesus Christ, if, as some assume, that He is not equal to the Father, and Himself Almighty God, Yahweh.

The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed).

It is clear from Scripture, that the Father did not Create by Himself, nor did Jesus Christ, as we have seen that both are Testified in the Bible as Creator. The only possible way to understand this, when we see the use of , “διά”, rather than “intermediate agent”, we can use this preposition with the meaning of, “with one another”.

In fact, there is a clear example of “διά” used in this sense in the New Testament, where we read in Galatians 1:1;

“Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead”.

Here we have, “δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος”, where the meaning is, “by both Jesus Christ and God the Father”. Paul did not write, “δια ιησου χριστου και εξ θεου πατρος”, that is, “through Jesus Christ and from God the Father”. The one preposition, διά, here governs BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father. Note also, how Paul mentions Jesus Christ before he does the Father. Something he would not have done, if Jesus Christ were “inferior” to the Father. In verse 3, Paul prays for “grace and peace”, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ”, where again we have the one Greek preposition, “ἀπὸ” (from), for “God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, jointly used as equals, as the “origin and cause”, of our “grace and peace”.

When we read in John 1:3, “πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο”, it is better translated, “all things with Him came into being”, as we have “τὸν θεόν” (God) in verse 1, as the Father. And, in verse 2 John is emphatic, when he says, “οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, “Who (the Word) was in the beginning with God”. This takes us into verse 3, as is distinct from the “ἀρχῇ”, which is not Genesis 1:1, but eternity past, as Jesus says in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify Me in your Own presence with the glory that I had (εἶχον, the imperfect, denoting origin and continuance) with (παρὰ, literally, “along with”, denoting equality) You before the world existed (πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι)”. Literally, “before there even was a world”, as in timeless eternity.

The same is with Hebrews 1:1, 2, “ὁ θεὸς…ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ…δι᾽ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας”, where it should read, “God…in His Son…with Whom also He made the worlds”

There can be no doubt, that the Bible clearly Teaches that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, exactly as God the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. This can only mean that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, Almighty God; and that the God of the Bible cannot be “Unitarian”, as some heretically teach, but IS Trinitarian.
 
By this we are to understand, that the actual Creator is God the Father, Who some how Created “through” the Lord Jesus Christ. I am interested to know how this works? What does it mean that the Father Created THROUGH Jesus Christ? Why would God the Father, Who is according to some, the Only True God, Who alone is Omnipotent, not Create the universe by Himself, rather than THROUGH someone Who is not supposed to be His equal?
Thanks, I would offer. One thing that can add confusion is the words. "By Jesus Christ" the anointing or teaching Savoir. Which is not by the Son of man, Jesus. . but the Holy Spirit of the Father who worked in the Son of man, Jesus.

The Son of man is not Christ. God is not a dying man he has no equal.

It's by the power of the Father as a labor of his love or called a work of his faith (beleif) . . "let there be" and the good testimony using the Son of man, Jesus "was very good" it did demonstrate the love of our Holy Father not seen, eternal God, the one Faithfull Creator

The temporal seen to show the power of the unseen eternal Father as a sign to the whole world. (all the nations)
 
In a first century reader's mind, the Word, logos has a very different meaning. To a Jew, that's the Torah, which will be fulfilled by their promised Messiah; to a Greek, though, that's the divine order of the universe, in other words, science, law of nature, the internal order that shapes all matters into being and governs the way they behave, hence Jn. 1:3, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." That's the core belief in Stoic philosophy, in Acts 17 there was some these Stoicists debating with Paul. Historically, that's the cultural narrative, the presupposition, the established worldview of John's readers, trinity doctrine didn't exist until several centuries later. Logos was nothing new to them, they were very familiar with this concept. What they didn't know is that this logos is not merely an immoral force or power of nature, and it's not a pantheistic, universal god that exists in everything, it's a real person of flesh and blood who brings mankind from darkness into light.
 
In a first century reader's mind, the Word, logos has a very different meaning. To a Jew, that's the Torah, which will be fulfilled by their promised Messiah; to a Greek, though, that's the divine order of the universe, in other words, science, law of nature, the internal order that shapes all matters into being and governs the way they behave, hence Jn. 1:3, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." That's the core belief in Stoic philosophy, in Acts 17 there was some these Stoicists debating with Paul. Historically, that's the cultural narrative, the presupposition, the established worldview of John's readers, trinity doctrine didn't exist until several centuries later. Logos was nothing new to them, they were very familiar with this concept. What they didn't know is that this logos is not merely an immoral force or power of nature, and it's not a pantheistic, universal god that exists in everything, it's a real person of flesh and blood who brings mankind from darkness into light.

The Old Testament, which is Jewish, is very clear, that there is more than One Person, Who is YHWH. So it is quite wrong for anyone, especially as Jew, to say that the Trinity, of Three distinct Persons, in One Godhead, or Divine Nature, is "Christian", and not taught in the Old Testament

Since Genesis 1:1, and elsewhere, is clear, that Creation is the Work of Almighty God, Who is YHWH, when we read in places like John 1:3, that the Universe was Created BY Jesus Christ, this undoubtedly means that Jesus Christ is YHWH
 
The Old Testament, which is Jewish, is very clear, that there is more than One Person, Who is YHWH. So it is quite wrong for anyone, especially as Jew, to say that the Trinity, of Three distinct Persons, in One Godhead, or Divine Nature, is "Christian", and not taught in the Old Testament

Since Genesis 1:1, and elsewhere, is clear, that Creation is the Work of Almighty God, Who is YHWH, when we read in places like John 1:3, that the Universe was Created BY Jesus Christ, this undoubtedly means that Jesus Christ is YHWH
Man, I didn't mean to doubt or challenge any of these, just offering you a polemic perspective other than your orthodox trinity view. Genesis is also polemic, a more accurate translation of Gen. 1:1 would read: "WHEN in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," that implies that creation was the presupposition, everybody believed that the cosmos was created by intelligent design; one purpose of the Genesis creation account was to challenge the polytheistic or pantheistic view which led to worship of celestial bodies, "great sea creatures" and other natural entities. All of those are creation, not creator, there's only one Creator, and mankind is made in his image to subdue the earth and steward nature, not the other way around.
 
where do you get this from? Jesus Christ is many times referred to as "the Son of Man", and, "the Son of God".

explain what you mean

Thanks, I can try.

The Son of man Jesus a member of dying mankind became the first of many born-again sons of God.

When Jesus spoke to the sign and wonder seeker Nicodemus as those you marvel, wondering after thing not seen.
Same group that said treating Jesus like a circus Seal. . prove there is a unseen God. . work a miracle then when we see it with our own eyes then we will believe is this God you say is not seen .The foundation of paganism. Out of sight out of mind

He revealed the greatest possible and mankind all of dying mankind to include his own self must be born again. Then he lovingly commanded him to marvel not but rather believe the words of prophecy.

Wondering marveling as in "not believing" would seem to come from the father of lying sign as wonders with all power to deceive the lost.

He gives us a double portion. . the witness of two. Twice he uses sons of God to amplify the truth.

1 John 3:1Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is
 
In a first century reader's mind, the Word, logos has a very different meaning. To a Jew, that's the Torah, which will be fulfilled by their promised Messiah; to a Greek, though, that's the divine order of the universe, in other words, science, law of nature, the internal order that shapes all matters into being and governs the way they behave, hence Jn. 1:3, "All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made." That's the core belief in Stoic philosophy, in Acts 17 there was some these Stoicists debating with Paul. Historically, that's the cultural narrative, the presupposition, the established worldview of John's readers, trinity doctrine didn't exist until several centuries later. Logos was nothing new to them, they were very familiar with this concept. What they didn't know is that this logos is not merely an immoral force or power of nature, and it's not a pantheistic, universal god that exists in everything, it's a real person of flesh and blood who brings mankind from darkness into light.
I do not think divine order has anything to do with the Stoicisms a philosophy of men. Rather than the written law of God as it is written is not subject to change according to the philosophies of dying mankind.

It's not nameless immoral force of power. It is the unseen power of God's living word . . "Let there be" and it was "God alone good". called the law of faith, demonstrated with Jesus the Son of man. The powerful Father raising up the powerless to new born-again eternal life

Jesus of his own dying flesh informs us it profits for zero ,nothing, nada . God is not man as us.

What did profit was the Holy Spirit the quickening power of God. His living word the Spirit of eternal life

He asked the disciples that did not continue to follow . They were hoping the dying flesh of mankind could profit. In effect Jesus saying . . What if you do not see his form anymore? They walked away in unbelief "no faith" that comes from hearing God as it is written. They refused to believe in an eternal God they cannot see with their own eye.

The Pagan tradition as philosophies of dying mankind "out of sight out of mind."

John 6: 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
 
I do not think divine order has anything to do with the Stoicisms a philosophy of men. Rather than the written law of God as it is written is not subject to change according to the philosophies of dying mankind.

It's not nameless immoral force of power. It is the unseen power of God's living word . . "Let there be" and it was "God alone good". called the law of faith, demonstrated with Jesus the Son of man. The powerful Father raising up the powerless to new born-again eternal life

Jesus of his own dying flesh informs us it profits for zero ,nothing, nada . God is not man as us.

What did profit was the Holy Spirit the quickening power of God. His living word the Spirit of eternal life

He asked the disciples that did not continue to follow . They were hoping the dying flesh of mankind could profit. In effect Jesus saying . . What if you do not see his form anymore? They walked away in unbelief "no faith" that comes from hearing God as it is written. They refused to believe in an eternal God they cannot see with their own eye.

The Pagan tradition as philosophies of dying mankind "out of sight out of mind."

John 6: 62 What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before? It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John was not preaching to the choir, if he was this would be another synoptic gospel. He was preaching to a people who never read Genesis 1 and they did perceive the divine order as a "nameless immoral force of power."
 
Man, I didn't mean to doubt or challenge any of these, just offering you a polemic perspective other than your orthodox trinity view. Genesis is also polemic, a more accurate translation of Gen. 1:1 would read: "WHEN in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," that implies that creation was the presupposition, everybody believed that the cosmos was created by intelligent design; one purpose of the Genesis creation account was to challenge the polytheistic or pantheistic view which led to worship of celestial bodies, "great sea creatures" and other natural entities. All of those are creation, not creator, there's only one Creator, and mankind is made in his image to subdue the earth and steward nature, not the other way around.

In the Hebrew text, Genesis 1:1 reads;

"bərē’šîṯ bārā’ ’ĕlōhîm ’ēṯ haššāmayim wə’ēṯ hā’āreṣ"

Literally in English this reads:

"In beginning God Created the heavens and the earth"

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", as in the Jewish translation by Isaac Leeser

The Greek Old Testament (LXX) reads: "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν", which is literally;

"In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth"

In the Latin Vulgate it reads, "In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram", which is, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth"

The Peshitta Aramiac by George Lasma, reads: "GOD created the heavens and the earth in the very beginning"

The Old Testament by the Jewish Publication Society, reads, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible in English, also reads: "In beginning God Created the heavens and the earth"

etc, etc

The reading you give is argued quite wrongly from the Hebrew, by a FEW.

The GREATER MAJORITY, like 99.9% reads as in MOST English versions.
 
In the Hebrew text, Genesis 1:1 reads;

"bərē’šîṯ bārā’ ’ĕlōhîm ’ēṯ haššāmayim wə’ēṯ hā’āreṣ"

Literally in English this reads:

"In beginning God Created the heavens and the earth"

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth", as in the Jewish translation by Isaac Leeser

The Greek Old Testament (LXX) reads: "Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἐποίησεν ὁ θεὸς τὸν οὐρανὸν καὶ τὴν γῆν", which is literally;

"In the beginning God made the heaven and the earth"

In the Latin Vulgate it reads, "In principio creavit Deus caelum et terram", which is, "In the beginning God created heaven and earth"

The Peshitta Aramiac by George Lasma, reads: "GOD created the heavens and the earth in the very beginning"

The Old Testament by the Jewish Publication Society, reads, "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth"

The Dead Sea Scrolls Bible in English, also reads: "In beginning God Created the heavens and the earth"

etc, etc

The reading you give is argued quite wrongly from the Hebrew, by a FEW.

The GREATER MAJORITY, like 99.9% reads as in MOST English versions.
In some Jewish bible versions such as JPS and NJPS, Gen. 1:1-2 as a whole is treated as a dependant clause that sets the context for Gen. 1:3 - "Let there be light". Another reading is: "AT the beginning of God's creation of heaven and earth." If you read it this way, then "let there be Light" would perfectly match John 1:1 as the first word of God.

 
Last edited:
Cont...

We have the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator of the entire universe. In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

“And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

These words are from Psalm 102:24-27, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

“I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

It is impossible for the words in Psalm to be used for Jesus Christ, if, as some assume, that He is not equal to the Father, and Himself Almighty God, Yahweh.

The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed).

It is clear from Scripture, that the Father did not Create by Himself, nor did Jesus Christ, as we have seen that both are Testified in the Bible as Creator. The only possible way to understand this, when we see the use of , “διά”, rather than “intermediate agent”, we can use this preposition with the meaning of, “with one another”.

In fact, there is a clear example of “διά” used in this sense in the New Testament, where we read in Galatians 1:1;

“Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead”.

Here we have, “δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος”, where the meaning is, “by both Jesus Christ and God the Father”. Paul did not write, “δια ιησου χριστου και εξ θεου πατρος”, that is, “through Jesus Christ and from God the Father”. The one preposition, διά, here governs BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father. Note also, how Paul mentions Jesus Christ before he does the Father. Something he would not have done, if Jesus Christ were “inferior” to the Father. In verse 3, Paul prays for “grace and peace”, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ”, where again we have the one Greek preposition, “ἀπὸ” (from), for “God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, jointly used as equals, as the “origin and cause”, of our “grace and peace”.

When we read in John 1:3, “πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο”, it is better translated, “all things with Him came into being”, as we have “τὸν θεόν” (God) in verse 1, as the Father. And, in verse 2 John is emphatic, when he says, “οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, “Who (the Word) was in the beginning with God”. This takes us into verse 3, as is distinct from the “ἀρχῇ”, which is not Genesis 1:1, but eternity past, as Jesus says in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify Me in your Own presence with the glory that I had (εἶχον, the imperfect, denoting origin and continuance) with (παρὰ, literally, “along with”, denoting equality) You before the world existed (πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι)”. Literally, “before there even was a world”, as in timeless eternity.

The same is with Hebrews 1:1, 2, “ὁ θεὸς…ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ…δι᾽ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας”, where it should read, “God…in His Son…with Whom also He made the worlds”

There can be no doubt, that the Bible clearly Teaches that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, exactly as God the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. This can only mean that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, Almighty God; and that the God of the Bible cannot be “Unitarian”, as some heretically teach, but IS Trinitarian.
I would not use the word 'heretically', but 'in error' would suffice... Then we can all say that is true...
 
In some Jewish bible versions such as JPS and NJPS, Gen. 1:1-2 as a whole is treated as a dependant clause that sets the context for Gen. 1:3 - "Let there be light". Another reading is: "AT the beginning of God's creation of heaven and earth." If you read it this way, then "let there be Light" would perfectly match John 1:1 as the first word of God.


I know about the argument for a dependent clause in Genesis 1:1. but that is not the case
 
I know about the argument for a dependent clause in Genesis 1:1. but that is not the case
The case is a repudiation of polytheism and pantheism, not Big Bang. As I said, creation was the established worldview which everyone agreed on, only an arrogant fool would deny the existence of God, see Ps. 14:1.
 
Cont...

We have the strongest Testimony that Jesus Christ is the actual Creator of the entire universe. In Hebrews chapter 1, God the Father is addressing Jesus Christ:

“And (καί, continued address to Jesus Christ), You (σύ, singular, referring to Jesus Christ) , Lord (κύριε, vocative, used in direct address), have laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning, and the heavens are the works of Your hands. They shall perish, but You will remain. And they shall all become old as a garment, and as a covering You shall fold them up, and they shall be changed. But You are the same, and Your years shall not fail” (verses 10-12)

These words are from Psalm 102:24-27, where they are used for Almighty God, Elohim:

“I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days; Your years are through the generation of generations. Of old You have laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the work of Your hands. They shall perish, but You shall endure; yea, all of them shall become old like a garment; like a robe You shall change them, and they shall be changed; but You are He, and Your years shall have no end”

It is impossible for the words in Psalm to be used for Jesus Christ, if, as some assume, that He is not equal to the Father, and Himself Almighty God, Yahweh.

The Greek preposition, “διά”, has the root meaning of, “two; from duo...two, between, through”. “The word dia often conceals its root meaning. That is ‘two,’ ‘twain,’ ‘in two.’ This original conception appears clearly in some compound words.” A. T. Robertson, The Minister and His Greek New Testament, ch. iv, p.29; also, C.F.D. Moule; An Idiom Book of New Testament Greek, p.54. The ancient Greek poet, Homer (around 800 BC), used this preposition, with the meaning, "Through, by means of, by virtue of, by the help or working of" (Richard John Cunliffe; A Lexicon of Homeric Dialect, p.91). "By the help or working of", where two or more can do something, by equal participation, where there is no need to distinguish between the work done. And, “Mutual operation: with one another” (Henry Smith [G Crusius]; A Complete Greek and English Lexicon for the Poems of Homer, page, 106. 1871 ed).

It is clear from Scripture, that the Father did not Create by Himself, nor did Jesus Christ, as we have seen that both are Testified in the Bible as Creator. The only possible way to understand this, when we see the use of , “διά”, rather than “intermediate agent”, we can use this preposition with the meaning of, “with one another”.

In fact, there is a clear example of “διά” used in this sense in the New Testament, where we read in Galatians 1:1;

“Paul, an apostle not from men nor through man, but through (διά) Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead”.

Here we have, “δια ιησου χριστου και θεου πατρος”, where the meaning is, “by both Jesus Christ and God the Father”. Paul did not write, “δια ιησου χριστου και εξ θεου πατρος”, that is, “through Jesus Christ and from God the Father”. The one preposition, διά, here governs BOTH the Lord Jesus Christ, and the Father. Note also, how Paul mentions Jesus Christ before he does the Father. Something he would not have done, if Jesus Christ were “inferior” to the Father. In verse 3, Paul prays for “grace and peace”, “ἀπὸ θεοῦ πατρὸς καὶ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ χριστοῦ”, where again we have the one Greek preposition, “ἀπὸ” (from), for “God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ”. Again, jointly used as equals, as the “origin and cause”, of our “grace and peace”.

When we read in John 1:3, “πάντα δι᾽ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο”, it is better translated, “all things with Him came into being”, as we have “τὸν θεόν” (God) in verse 1, as the Father. And, in verse 2 John is emphatic, when he says, “οὗτος ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸς τὸν θεόν”, “Who (the Word) was in the beginning with God”. This takes us into verse 3, as is distinct from the “ἀρχῇ”, which is not Genesis 1:1, but eternity past, as Jesus says in John 17:5, “And now, Father, glorify Me in your Own presence with the glory that I had (εἶχον, the imperfect, denoting origin and continuance) with (παρὰ, literally, “along with”, denoting equality) You before the world existed (πρὸ τοῦ τὸν κόσμον εἶναι)”. Literally, “before there even was a world”, as in timeless eternity.

The same is with Hebrews 1:1, 2, “ὁ θεὸς…ἡμῖν ἐν υἱῷ…δι᾽ οὗ καὶ ἐποίησεν τοὺς αἰῶνας”, where it should read, “God…in His Son…with Whom also He made the worlds”

There can be no doubt, that the Bible clearly Teaches that Jesus Christ is the ACTUAL CREATOR, exactly as God the Father is, and the Holy Spirit. This can only mean that Jesus Christ IS Yahweh, Almighty God; and that the God of the Bible cannot be “Unitarian”, as some heretically teach, but IS Trinitarian.
I believe the Father is YHWH because Isaiah 64:8 explicitly refers to Him as such. YHWH said elsewhere He is the only God and that taking other gods as your god is considered idolatry. Jesus later said in John 17:1-3 that the Father is the only true God.

As far as Jesus being a creator, that does not appear to be the case since the Old Testament says YHWH is the creator. By examining the prayer of Peter and John in Acts 4:23-30, we can also see that they referred to the One they were praying to as the "Sovereign Lord" and the "Creator of heaven and earth" while on the other hand referring to Jesus as His holy Servant. That would indicate to me that Peter and John don't believe Jesus is the creator of the material universe.

There are some examples in the New Testament where it is said that things were created through Jesus. Some versions say "by" or "in" Jesus, but the Greek word remains the same and it refers to the instrumentality of Jesus in creation. Therefore I prefer the versions that say "through" because that is more clearer.

As to what was created through Jesus, I believe they are speaking to a specific context and it would be the Church age and/or Messianic age. That isn't unprecedented. For example, Colossians 1:23 says the gospel had already been preached to all creation which is literally false, but Paul is speaking about a specific context so it's technically true in the sense he was using it.

I would finally appeal to Hebrews 1:2. Now, many versions do curiously say the universe or worlds were created through the Son, but that is actually a corruption of the text. The actual word there in the passage is aión which isn't the word for worlds or universe. Aión refers to a chronological span of time. Some versions like the Weymouth New Testament and the Young's Literal Translation thusly use ages instead of world or universe. However, God didn't create the ages through the Son until these "last days." It refers to the creation of the Church age and/or Messianic age, not the actual physical universe.
 
Last edited:
I know about the argument for a dependent clause in Genesis 1:1. but that is not the case
Look, man, essentially this is just an issue of grammar which does not affect the meaning of the text, what it does is shift your focus from a modifier to the point - light breaking the darkness, order from chaos.

An example like this is the Second Amendment, which reads: "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." What most people don't realize is that the first sentence is a dependent clause, it states the reason and sets the context for the following sentence, which is the main clause. To translate it into modern English, you need one key word - BECAUSE a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Without this key word, you'd get the wrong impression, you'd think that only the armed forces regulated by the government get to keep and bear arms, and the security of the state is only the armed forces' responsibility, that's the opposite of the Second Amendment's purpose.
 
Last edited:
As far as Jesus being a creator, that does not appear to be the case since the Old Testament says YHWH is the creator

IF this is correct, then God the Father is wrong!

It is beyond any question from Hebrews chapter one, verses 10-12, that the Father Addresses Jesus Christ as THE CREATOR.

"And, Thou, O Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands: They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment; And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail"

These words are from Psalm 102, which are spoken of Almighty God, the Creator:

"I said, O my God, take me not away in the midst of my days: Thy years are throughout all generations. Of old didst thou lay the foundation of the earth; And the heavens are the work of thy hands. They shall perish, but thou shalt endure; Yea, all of them shall wax old like a garment; As a vesture shalt thou change them, and they shall be changed: But thou art the same, And thy years shall have no end" (verses 24-27)

The "Lord" in Hebrews is Yahweh
 
Look, man, essentially this is just an issue of grammar which does not affect the meaning of the text, what it does is shift your focus from a modifier to the point - light breaking the darkness, order from chaos.

An example like this is the Second Amendment, which reads: "a well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." What most people don't realize is that the first sentence is a dependent clause, it states the reason and sets the context for the following sentence, which is the main clause. To translate it into modern English, you need one key word - BECAUSE a well regulated militia is necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. Without this key word, you'd get the wrong impression, you'd think that only the armed forces regulated by the government get to keep and bear arms, and the security of the state is only the armed forces' responsibility, that's the opposite of the Second Amendment's purpose.

Indeed it is an issue with Hebrew grammar, which is important, and 99.9% of translations cannot get it wrong, and the 0.01% get it right!
 

Donations

Total amount
$1,642.00
Goal
$5,080.00
Back
Top