Is 'doctrine' Progressive or Regressive?

[Drew]

Really? Wan't "The Fall" the beginning of a slippery slope (if you will) downward?

Isn't the effect of sin degrading? How is it that the world can be a 'better' place now?

I think that the fall placed us at the "bottom" already - and from then on God has been undertaking a program to rehabilitate mankind. Once man was in a fallen state, he (man) could then indeed "damage" the world through such sin. As a result of your post, I will modify my "theory" somewhat and suggest that the world did indeed get worse in the period immediately after the fall - as I think you are suggesting when you point out that sin indeed has a degrading effect.

But we know that God had a plan for the redemption of mankind. And I believe that I am on safe theological ground when I state that his plan began to unfold from the fall onward. I think that once the effects of the fall had propagated into the world, things were as bad as they were ever going to be. From that point, I believe that God's continual intervention in human affairs has had the result of "reeling us back in". I think that God has been establishing the kingdom of heaven in our midst since the fall.

I suggest that to say that things have gotten worse from the time Jesus entered our world (picking that particularly important time in human history) is to say that God is losing the battle to establish his kingdom. I think such a view is incorrect "theologically" as well as empirically.

 

[Drew]

Now, there is a 'voice of reason and wisdom'. Thank you for your offering aLone. There certainly ARE 'some' with understanding offered 'from above'.

MEC

I was hoping that this discussion would not take on this dismissive tone. If you have points to make, please make them and refrain from suggesting that those who do not hold your view are not blessed with understanding.

 

[Solo]

Drew,
What are your feelings concerning the betterment of the world in relation to the truth that Jesus speaks to his disciples in this Scripture:

1 And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple.

2 And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.

8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake.

10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.

12 And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.

13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:

18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.

19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!

20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 3

4 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods. 48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;

49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;

50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,

51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 24:1-51

 

[Drew]

I see the Matthew 24 text as entirely consistent with what I am proposing. Remember, the idea that I am putting forward in no way denies the reality of a downward spiral at the end of time. I simply beleive that until that downward spiral begins, human society will be "getting better" as the kingdom of God gains ground against the other kingdoms with which it does battle.

I would claim that the evidence suggests that this is indeed the case.

 

[TanNinety]

Drew, I am glad you see what God has accomplished in the past 2000 years since the advent of His Son. I agree that God's kingdom is indeed gaining ground. I definitely see your 'theory' being plausible.

Personally, I would rather live in this age rather than the dark ages. But when the end comes, it will indeed be the days of Noah.

But the problem I think is the water is half-way up in the glass. I suspect you are seeing it half full and the rest half empty. I submit that both the camps might be right, God's kingdom is gaining ground parallel to the devil's wicked plans flourishing.

 

[Solo]

I see the Matthew 24 text as entirely consistent with what I am proposing. Remember, the idea that I am putting forward in no way denies the reality of a downward spiral at the end of time. I simply beleive that until that downward spiral begins, human society will be "getting better" as the kingdom of God gains ground against the other kingdoms with which it does battle.

I would claim that the evidence suggests that this is indeed the case.

I see Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Revelation as being the end times that Jesus is speaking of beginning with His crucifixion. I see the first of the seven seals in Revelation being opened in the early 300s with Constantine being the rider of the white horse. I believe the seven seals to be a chronological timeline of the beginning of the end times to the end. I see nothing in the world today that is any better for ones spiritual life, but I do see the flesh being pleasured in a much better way.

I also believe that the Christian church of the first century was in much better shape than it is today.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Don't be 'dismayed'. It's simply a 'sign of the times'.

Drew,

as an example of how 'wrong' you 'truly' ARE:

You state that upon man's original 'fall' things were as 'bad as they get' and have ONLY gotten 'better'. Now, please explain to me how it took another 'thousand years' for man's heart to become 'wicked continually'. So evil did MANKIND become that God destroyed ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve EXCEPT for ONE MAN, Noah and his family.

So, your premise is filled with 'falsehood'. Choosing to follow the 'world's thinking' rather than scripture or revelation offered through The Holy Spirit.

So, while I 'respect' your 'opinion', I would by NO means allow it to 'go unchallenged'. I asked the question with the intention of 'finding' just such a 'one' as I have, in your post. And I would be willing to 'bet' that if you and I were to discuss 'exactly' what sort of 'doctrine' that you follow, I could quite easily point out that it IS the 'doctrine' that you follow that would lead to such a conclusion as that you have offered. And 'man-made' doctrine at that. Clearly.

I won't INDICATE that you have NO understanding. I will STATE it. ANYONE that could read and understand The Word could NOT believe that the state of man at present is in 'better' shape than that of man two thousand years ago. So far as true 'Spiritual understanding', your post offers NONE.

You DO realize that the world MUST once again corrupt itself ALMOST to a man BEFORE revelation can be complete? That the world WILL become ALL but COMPLETELY ruled by SATAN. That the WORLD WILL WORSHIP HIM AS GOD, Right?s

Or, do you read a 'different' Bible than the one that I do? Jehovah's witness maybe?

Whatever you follow, I can assure you that 'someone' or 'something' has led you astray in your understanding of 'truth'.

Now, YOU offer some scriptural reference to 'your' understanding and I will recant these words. NO, not ONE LINE OF SCRIPTURE. But show me through scripture where 'your view' is EVEN INDICATED and I will gladly apologize for 'falsely accusing you' and will openly admit that I AM WRONG.

Otherwise, please don't add such thoughtless comments and expect to be 'taken seriously'. I posed the question of this thread in 'seriousness' and you decide to 'step in' with COMPLETE CONTRADICTION of The Word.

See WHY I started this thread, folks?

MEC

 

[Guest]

MEC - from reading your last message, it would appear that you started this thread to merely bash someone for disagreeing with you.

I find it odd that you would accuse someone first and then admit you are wrong when they offer proof. I believe you misunderstand what it means to not 'falsely accuse'. Perhaps you should wait until you receive all the facts and look at all the evidence before making judgements. One should not hide behind the notion of 'trying to discern' to jusitfy blind accusations.

However, I believe you and Drew are looking at two different things. It appears MEC that you are coming from an Eschatological perspective, and I believe Drew might be looking at a more sociological perspective.

Also what factors into how one views the world is their Eschatology as well.

 

[stranger]

Post subject: Is 'doctrine' Progressive or Regressive?

What I ask is;

Has man found 'newer ways' in which to become 'closer' to God. Or, through time and change have we simply gravitated 'away' instead? And regardless of one's answer to this, how did it happen?

MEC

Hi MEC,

Firstly the title: Is 'doctrine' Progressive or Regressive?

I believe that a prior question needs to be asked of the man before he sets down to examine doctrine:

Is the path the man is on progressive or regressive?

Claims to have found new doctrine that leads to ways to become closer to God - are seen in the marketplace of new speakers, courses and bookshops full of self help books indicative of the fact that something vital is missing. At the same time communion with God has been unattainable by these self same measures that offer nothing more than a temporal lift and a return to an ever deepening encounter with lack of communion.

How did this regression come about? I believe it came about primarily by pretending God was with us when in fact He had withdrawn and noone had the courage or discernment to say so. This state of affairs has been allowed to continue unchallenged.

 

[mutzrein]

Ahhhhhhhh. So, this 'doctrine' CAN become MORE important than the ACTUAL truth that may have 'brought it about'? Interesting.

So, now, with this thought in mind, does this doctrine bring me CLOSER to 'the truth' or is it possible that this 'doctrine' could lead me 'away from' the truth?

MEC

The bottom line is righteousness. It doesn't matter which way you cut it. We can ONLY be made righteous by faith and as scripture says, "the just shall live by faith."

So, the law does not make us righteous. Doctrine does not make us righteous. So whatever you want to call it - whether it be the things we do or the things we believe, the righteousness that God requires can only ever be by faith.

And again as scripture confirms, " . . . everything that does not come from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

 

[Imagican]

MEC - from reading your last message, it would appear that you started this thread to merely bash someone for disagreeing with you.

I find it odd that you would accuse someone first and then admit you are wrong when they offer proof. I believe you misunderstand what it means to not 'falsely accuse'. Perhaps you should wait until you receive all the facts and look at all the evidence before making judgements. One should not hide behind the notion of 'trying to discern' to jusitfy blind accusations.

However, I believe you and Drew are looking at two different things. It appears MEC that you are coming from an Eschatological perspective, and I believe Drew might be looking at a more sociological perspective.

Also what factors into how one views the world is their Eschatology as well.

That you would confuse 'truth' with 'bashing' speaks volumes as to 'your' understanding, (or lack thereof).

A comment is made that TOTALLY contradicts scripture as offered BY OUR GOD, and you would attempt to 'chastise' me for 'pointing it out'.

You KNOW folks, there ARE gods MANY. Now, do you know WHO is responsible for the 'creation' of these 'other gods'. WHO they 'truly are'?

Those that live 'for' this world are NOT following God, but instead, choose to follow the god of 'this world'. Do you KNOW 'who' that 'truly' is?

So, 'bashing' it may be in the 'eyes' of some. Truth is what I would call it.

Now, I 'accuse' through 'understanding'. But to 'show' that I am as 'humble' as possible, (for me that is), I offer that if one feels that I have made 'false' statements, simply PROVE it through scripture and I will OPENLY admit that I am wrong. Otherwise, I stand by my offerings.

Now, if this person had simply stated that the POSSIBILITIES have been 'enhanced' since the 'advent of Christ' I would have NOT opposed such a 'view'. But to offer that the 'state of man' has IMPROVED since Christ is pure falacy. We HAVE the proof offered by Christ AND His apostles. And ANYONE that has ever read The Word with ANY understanding KNOWS exactly to WHAT I refer.

Now, there IS a 'better' world for those that 'follow IT' instead of God. Those that conform to IT and IT'S rules are VERY pleased with the 'state' that it is in. But for those that follow Christ TO His Father, the world is an 'enemy' of that which is 'righteous'. AND I DON'T mean 'just a little bit of it', the ENTIRETY of it.

So, believe that 'political correctness' is the 'way to go' and you have offered 'all the proof' that I need to understand that you have 'bought into this world' and have shuned the Words, (The Word of God), that were offered by Our Savior.

Now, 'I' believe that 'doctrinal issues' are what 'cause' such 'thought'; That for the 'sake of the world', we should remain 'silent' concerning 'truth'.

Any idea what 'the good fight' is ALL about? Ever heard of 'picking up The Cross'? Ever heard it stated that; 'there is NOT ONE that is righteous, NO, not ONE'? Yet you think we have gotten 'closer' to God as far as ''mankind'' is concerned?

MEC

 

[Imagican]

The bottom line is righteousness. It doesn't matter which way you cut it. We can ONLY be made righteous by faith and as scripture says, "the just shall live by faith."

So, the law does not make us righteous. Doctrine does not make us righteous. So whatever you want to call it - whether it be the things we do or the things we believe, the righteousness that God requires can only ever be by faith.

And again as scripture confirms, " . . . everything that does not come from faith is sin." Romans 14:23

Mutz,

I agree 110 percent with what you say. But you 'skirt' the 'second part'. While we agree that NOTHING made or done can 'bring us to righteousness'. Can the things we 'do' lead us 'away' from righteousness'?

MEC

 

[Drew]

Drew,

as an example of how 'wrong' you 'truly' ARE:

You state that upon man's original 'fall' things were as 'bad as they get' and have ONLY gotten 'better'. Now, please explain to me how it took another 'thousand years' for man's heart to become 'wicked continually'. So evil did MANKIND become that God destroyed ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve EXCEPT for ONE MAN, Noah and his family.

So, your premise is filled with 'falsehood'. Choosing to follow the 'world's thinking' rather than scripture or revelation offered through The Holy Spirit.

I agree that the reference to the flood suggests that it took some time for the consequences of the fall to become fully manifest. So I will revise my theory to bascially the following:

The fall did indeed initiate a period of "moral descent". At some point, though, God's working in human history tunred the tide and the world has generally been getting better ever since.

So, while I 'respect' your 'opinion', I would by NO means allow it to 'go unchallenged'. I asked the question with the intention of 'finding' just such a 'one' as I have, in your post. And I would be willing to 'bet' that if you and I were to discuss 'exactly' what sort of 'doctrine' that you follow, I could quite easily point out that it IS the 'doctrine' that you follow that would lead to such a conclusion as that you have offered. And 'man-made' doctrine at that. Clearly.

This is rhetoric and a thinly veiled attempt to smear my character ("finding such a one as I have in your post") and my respect for the Scriptures ("and man-made doctrine at that"). You made a decent point but one that only requires a modification to my initial theory. There has been no Biblical case yet that things are on a general descent over time.

I won't INDICATE that you have NO understanding. I will STATE it. ANYONE that could read and understand The Word could NOT believe that the state of man at present is in 'better' shape than that of man two thousand years ago. So far as true 'Spiritual understanding', your post offers NONE.

This is more empty rhetoric and is another example of a phenomena all too common on this forum - engaging in "Christian propaganda" by trying to smear the intentions, judgment, and inellectual competence of someone of a differing opinion. I refer the readers to attempts of JM and RED BEETLE to defend Calvinism by smearing their opponents while never engaging the content of the counterarguments on offer.

If you feel you have what it takes to defeat my argument, then please go ahead. But address the content and leave the bashing out of it.

Simply stating that "anyone that can read and understand the word" would share your view is obviously not an argument.

Or, do you read a 'different' Bible than the one that I do? Jehovah's witness maybe?

Whatever you follow, I can assure you that 'someone' or 'something' has led you astray in your understanding of 'truth'.

Do you honestly think such tactics help prove your point?

See WHY I started this thread, folks?

More condescension.

 

[Drew]

But to offer that the 'state of man' has IMPROVED since Christ is pure falacy. We HAVE the proof offered by Christ AND His apostles. And ANYONE that has ever read The Word with ANY understanding KNOWS exactly to WHAT I refer.

Please support this claim. What scriptural proof do you have?

 

[Imagican]

OK Drew,

Solo has ALREADY offered MUCH scriptural PROOF of what you ask. But I will 'add' to it.

Have you EVER read Revelation? And if so, did you understand 'any' of it?

Now, this being said, do you TRULY believe that God will DESTROY a 'world FULL' of His followers?

If what you propose is even remotely 'truth', then EVENTUALLY this 'world' would 'conform' to God's will. Yet we KNOW, THROUGH HIS WORD, that this is NOT the case. In fact, we kNOW that the ONLY way that it will be conformed is through His INTERVENTION and thus, left to 'our OWN desires' would be COMPLETELY overtaken by Satan. For we have scripture that PLAINLY states that in 'the end times' that EVEN God's OWN ELECT, WILL be led 'astray'. And if NOT for God choosing 'that time' to FULFILL His Will, the ENTIRE world would be 'lost'. Yet He HAS chosen a 'remnant' throughout His relationship with man so that there IS hope of a 'continued' relationship with mankind even if VERY LIMITED.

Now, you indicate that your belief is that man has become 'closer' to God. This 'cannot' be. For the 'down slide' has been CONTINUAL since the 'relationship began'. And will culminate with a 'final battle' between Christ and 'those that live FOR this world'. Christ being the 'winner' of course. And that ONLY through this means will it be possible for man to live 'on this planet' in the 'way' that it was 'meant' to be. With God AS their Father and Christ, His Son, AS their KING.

I know you asked for scripture. Don't have time for that unless you 'truly' insist that I 'spend the time' to collect it and present it. But, as indicated, The Bible is FULL of scripture that doesn't simply 'indicate' what I have offered, but OUTRIGHT states it.

Now, I am NOT sure how much progression you personally have made in 'your walk'. Perhaps it simply a matter of it being in the stage of 'beginning'. But the only thing that I can offer is my understanding. If you choose to accept or deny, do yourself a 'favor' FIRST and 'READ' The Word. Not until one has at least a 'basic grasp' of what words are contained within it, there is little understanding possible other than that offered through the Holy Spirit. And we are commanded to compare things of this world to that which is offered through The Word. So, read it FIRST and then one is able to understand the 'true nature' of the flesh.

Look, I was NOT trying to be 'mean'. What I meant to do was to prevent this conversation by simply pointing out the 'confusion' of your statement. I PROMISE you that if you will read the Bible throughout you will PLAINLY see what I have offered here to be 'truth'.

Now, the point of this thread was not to discuss whether or not man has regressed or progressed, but HOW it happened? I thought that everyone would agree that the state of man has 'regressed'. I assumed that was a 'given' to ALL who have an understanding of The Word. I apologize if this is NOT the case but I am a 'simple man' and thought that 'being such' would allow me to communicate on such a level of understanding that EVERY single 'Christian', (regardless of denomination), would understand. Sometimes I AM hasty in my statements to those that may not be what I 'assumed' that they 'ARE', (learned in The Word). For these PLEASE take no offense. I do not mean to 'hurt' ANYONE.

But also understand that there IS 'knowledge from above'. The ONLY truth IS from above. We begin by studying, (reading The Word), and grow through The Spirit. There IS no 'other way' that I am 'aware of'. Even Paul was WELL versed in the scriptures PREVIOUS to the NT, (which wasn't even written at the time). But the OT prophets writings WERE something that he was quite familiar with. And Paul certainly encouraged us, through his words, to READ what has been offered and compare what 'we' believe to that which has been offered. It is our JOB to be able to discern 'truth' from that which is simply 'thought' and the ONLY way that I know of that this IS possible is through The Word and The Spirit.

Some may teach you that God is able to reveal things directly to an individual or group. Don't doubt it or deny it. But WHATEVER one is 'taught' or HOW, if it contradicts 'scripture' then it 'CAN'T be 'righteous' or 'of God'. Otherwise one is simply able to completely discard The Bible as 'nothing other than a 'story'. I, for ONE, KNOW that this is NOT the case. God's Word is eternal and everlasting and it IS the 'way' that we learn WHO and WHAT He is and what He desires FOR us.


MEC

 

[Drew]

OK Drew,

Solo has ALREADY offered MUCH scriptural PROOF of what you ask. But I will 'add' to it.

Have you EVER read Revelation? And if so, did you understand 'any' of it?

All that Solo has done is show that there will indeed be a terrible convulsion at the end of time. I have never denied this. The texts that he posts do not require us to understand that human history will be a continual descent over the millenia.

Yes I have read Revelation and your transparent attempts to smear with rhetoric will not escape the careful reader.

If what you propose is even remotely 'truth', then EVENTUALLY this 'world' would 'conform' to God's will. Yet we KNOW, THROUGH HIS WORD, that this is NOT the case. In fact, we kNOW that the ONLY way that it will be conformed is through His INTERVENTION and thus, left to 'our OWN desires' would be COMPLETELY overtaken by Satan.

I do not know who you are arguing with here - not me, because I have clearly stated that the very reason that things are "getting better" is because God has indeed intervened in human history. I have never claimed to hold the position that you ascribe to me.

For we have scripture that PLAINLY states that in 'the end times' that EVEN God's OWN ELECT, WILL be led 'astray'. And if NOT for God choosing 'that time' to FULFILL His Will, the ENTIRE world would be 'lost'. Yet He HAS chosen a 'remnant' throughout His relationship with man so that there IS hope of a 'continued' relationship with mankind even if VERY LIMITED.

I find your specific point hard to grasp. Again, I believe with the rest of you that there will indeed be an apocalyptic end times. This does not mean that humankind is necessarily on a long-term slide into depravity.

Now, you indicate that your belief is that man has become 'closer' to God. This 'cannot' be. For the 'down slide' has been CONTINUAL since the 'relationship began'.

What is your specific support for this claim that there has been a continual down slide since the relationship began?

I know you asked for scripture. Don't have time for that unless you 'truly' insist that I 'spend the time' to collect it and present it. But, as indicated, The Bible is FULL of scripture that doesn't simply 'indicate' what I have offered, but OUTRIGHT states it.

Unfortunately, if you are going to claim that Scripture contradicts the idea that I have proposed, you do indeed need to go ahead and find it. I have never claimed that there are specific Scriptures that support my position. In your above statement you seem to suggest that there are Scriptures that "OUTRIGHT" state your position. Why not provide them?

Now, I am NOT sure how much progression you personally have made in 'your walk'. Perhaps it simply a matter of it being in the stage of 'beginning'. But the only thing that I can offer is my understanding. If you choose to accept or deny, do yourself a 'favor' FIRST and 'READ' The Word. Not until one has at least a 'basic grasp' of what words are contained within it, there is little understanding possible other than that offered through the Holy Spirit. And we are commanded to compare things of this world to that which is offered through The Word. So, read it FIRST and then one is able to understand the 'true nature' of the flesh.

The condescension here is absolutely shameless. Did you and RED BEETLE go to the same "school" to learn this style of "debate"?

I PROMISE you that if you will read the Bible throughout you will PLAINLY see what I have offered here to be 'truth'.

Have you earned the right to claim this authoritative position?

I thought that everyone would agree that the state of man has 'regressed'. I assumed that was a 'given' to ALL who have an understanding of The Word. I apologize if this is NOT the case but I am a 'simple man' and thought that 'being such' would allow me to communicate on such a level of understanding that EVERY single 'Christian', (regardless of denomination), would understand. Sometimes I AM hasty in my statements to those that may not be what I 'assumed' that they 'ARE', (learned in The Word). For these PLEASE take no offense. I do not mean to 'hurt' ANYONE.

Oh, so I am not learned in the word because I dare to challenge your position? What arrogance. And especially since you have not provided a smidgen of evidence to support your position (except for the Genesis reference which I indeed take into account and modified my position accordingly).

The rest of your post is more of the same......

 

[Imagican]

To 'start' with; I have EARNED NOTHING. I am a lowly WORM in the scope of 'righteousness'. Were it not for a 'loving God' there would BE no HOPE for me. Fortunately I DO have a LOVING God that is MORE than willing to impart 'an understanding of Himself to ALL that are willing to be obedient to His commandments and but ASK.

I have an answer for you. There is a forum devoted SPECIFICALLY to what it 'seems' you would like to 'turn this thread into'. It is a 'one on one' debate 'part' of this forum. If you are 'sure' that you would like me to offer God's word that will 'shatter' what 'you offer', then by all means, (I don't really have the time for this, but I will make time, if you 'truly' seek 'The Truth;).

Otherwise, I don't really desire for this thread to be 'taken up' with a 'personal' disagreement between you and I on 'a basic understanding' of the issue which we have now taken up MOST of this thread discussing that has 'little' if ANYTHING to do with the PURPOSE that I 'started it'.

So, let me know and we can continue there.

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

Now, you indicate that your belief is that man has become 'closer' to God. This 'cannot' be. For the 'down slide' has been CONTINUAL since the 'relationship began'. And will culminate with a 'final battle' between Christ and 'those that live FOR this world'. Christ being the 'winner' of course. And that ONLY through this means will it be possible for man to live 'on this planet' in the 'way' that it was 'meant' to be. With God AS their Father and Christ, His Son, AS their KING.

MEC, I agree! : The conquest will not be God through his people, but the conquest will be by God Himself! Actually, let me restate that; the conquest was completed when Jesus conquered death and was resurrected;thus defeating the Adversary for those who put their trust and Faith in Christ. Since Man has shown throughout Biblical history (emphesis on Biblical) it was God's Plan from the beginning to "step" in and "save the day".

Mat 19:25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?
Mat 19:26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

We cannot save ourselves; it is God who in the "business" of soul-saving. We may be able to physically make this a better place though technology and such, but Man is incapable of repairing that which is "spiritually" broken.

I will work on a counterpoint this weekend for this so-called "restoration theology" which is steeped in New Age thought and has been infiltrating the Ekkleisa, but in the meantime; feast your eyes on this:

http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/thirdwave.html

 

[Vic C.]

I'd like to add one more thing to this discussion; when dealing with progressive revelation, we MUST limit ourselves to Biblical history. Only through God's continued progressive revealing of Himself through His Scripture will we see the revelations we seek. Anything over and above that will lead to all kinds of extra-Biblical doctrine.

 

[stranger]

Hi Solo (and others):

I see nothing in the scriptures that you have posted that rules out a situation whereby the world gets better and better over time and then begins a rapid descent into the chaos described in these texts.

I see no scriptural warrant to believe that things will get progressively worse over time. Granted, things will be bad at "the end", but this does not rule out a long period of "improvement" before that point.

Hi Drew,

Your argument is very similar to what a preterist might say. Following the tread there appears to be two issues:

1. What scripture projects to be the course of history - there appears to be consensus on the end times.

2. How we interpret what has happened so far.


But to make some headway you need to be more specific - what is it that is getting better and better?