Is 'doctrine' Progressive or Regressive?

[Drew]

Gentlemen:

Like Imagican, I probably do not have the interest in engaging in a formal debate.

I am not exactly sure what this thread is supposed to be about. If I look at the OP again, I would have to say that man has not "found newer ways to become closer to God". I suspect that all would probably agree to this.

As far as having "gravitated away", I would still say that on the whole, mankind is not gravitating away but actually getting closer. This is because of both the empirical evidence that we see of a world that is generally getting better and for the "theological" reason that the kingdom of God is being built and, despite some of my disagreements with the hardcore sovereignty types, I believe that God's kingdom has to be winning the war against the other kingdoms. When Jesus says things like:

"I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."

He is indeed telling us that Kingdom has indeed already arrived, It is not a kingdom that is absent now and will appear in the future. And I have to believe that if God is at work in the world, He has to be winning - if His kingdom is not slowly winning the war against other kingdoms then His kingdom is shrinking and shrinking - a situation that I cannot imagine to be true.

A word about this statement:

We may be able to physically make this a better place though technology and such, but Man is incapable of repairing that which is "spiritually" broken.

I believe that most Christians have made a false distinction between the "material" and the "spiritual" at least in the sense implied by the above post. Improvements in physical well-being (medecines, etc) are signs that that the kingdom is indeed advancing. Once again, I suspect that Greek ideas may be tripping us up here. If one has the more correct view (in my opinion) that God's kingdom is built up in the real "material" world that we live in, one can see that much ground has been gained.

In short, I think that one powerful sign of the successful evolution of the Kingdom of God is the generally improved quality of physical life in the world. Matter "matters" and one cannot divorce "spiritual" progress from "material" progress. In fact, I would claim that the advent of Jesus into the world is largely, albeit indirectly, responsible for many of the improvements in our "material" world.

I submit that we "miss" noticing the evolving kingdom when we somehow view "material" advances as being of no consequence.

They are of enormous consequence and are evidence of the evolving and advancing Kingdom.

 

[stranger]

I am fascinated by the weight of perspective.

As far as understanding 'the scales of scripture' are concerned - very little is ever said about how much legitimate emphasis can be apportioned to one part of scripture, in supporting an argument, as opposed to another part of scripture - in opposing that argument. And so what is emerging is the importance of a 'Christian World View' and how differences in this world view - cause disagreements between believers.

Please - my concern is not who is and who is not a Christian in making this point (with perhpas the exception of Ahimsa's world view - which I can't reconcile with any Christian world view or theology).

 

[Drew]

But to make some headway you need to be more specific - what is it that is getting better and better?

Hello stranger:

As hinted at in my previous post, I think that the majority of Christians have this interesting notion that the advances in "material living conditions" is the consequence of the acts of men and that God has had little or nothing to do with it.

On a related note, I think that many Christians, especially "conservative evangelicals" promote a false distinction between the "spiritual" and the "material". I see the teachings of Jesus as stressing their unity:

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

In short, caring for the physical needs of each other is a manifestation of the presence of the Kingdom of God.

And I think that there is a lot of ways in which mankind has indeed progressed (lest anyone think otherwise, I am giving the credit for this to God, not to man - please be careful not to misread me). I think the general area of "technology" should be pointed out here. For all its negatives, technology provides us with the very capability to "feed the strangers" and "clothe the strangers".

Someone told me that back in 1400 or so, about 50% of all humans spent years and years suffering from painful toothaches. With medical and other technology breakthroughs, much suffering has been done away with. And I think that the teachings of Jesus have played a large, albeit indirect, role in such advancements.

So at the very least, I would say that our developing technology and its applications for the betterment of the human condition are an example of the developing kingdom of God.

 

[stranger]

Hello stranger:

As hinted at in my previous post, I think that the majority of Christians have this interesting notion that the advances in "material living conditions" is the consequence of the acts of men and that God has had little or nothing to do with it.

On a related note, I think that many Christians, especially "conservative evangelicals" promote a false distinction between the "spiritual" and the "material". I see the teachings of Jesus as stressing their unity:

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

In short, caring for the physical needs of each other is a manifestation of the presence of the Kingdom of God.

And I think that there is a lot of ways in which mankind has indeed progressed (lest anyone think otherwise, I am giving the credit for this to God, not to man - please be careful not to misread me). I think the general area of "technology" should be pointed out here. For all its negatives, technology provides us with the very capability to "feed the strangers" and "clothe the strangers".

Someone told me that back in 1400 or so, about 50% of all humans spent years and years suffering from painful toothaches. With medical and other technology breakthroughs, much suffering has been done away with. And I think that the teachings of Jesus have played a large, albeit indirect, role in such advancements.

So at the very least, I would say that our developing technology and its applications for the betterment of the human condition are an example of the developing kingdom of God.

Yes, material things do matter - that is why Jesus healed people. Technology is a double edged sword. Something of your world view is emerging!

 

[Vic C.]

On a related note, I think that many Christians, especially "conservative evangelicals" promote a false distinction between the "spiritual" and the "material". I see the teachings of Jesus as stressing their unity:

Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'
"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

No, we do not make that much of a distinction between the two. We are commanded to do the above. We do it as a result of our being saved, not to be saved. Most of all, we do it to glorify God.

Matthew 22:36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?
Matthew 22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
Matthew 22:38 This is the first and great commandment.
Matthew 22:39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
Matthew 22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:41 While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them,

Yes, these material things do aid the suffering, the hungry, homeless, etc. But anyone can, and does, do these things. Even Atheists do these things. What they don't do is what we are first and foremost commanded to do; preach the Gospel. We are to let people know that they are in need of a Savior and that their eternal future is at stake without one.

You know the old saying, "give a man a fish, he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll eat for a lifetime". (or eternity in this case)

Matthew 4:19 And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men.

We can make the here and now better for Man or we can help make it better for Man by making his spiritual fate our utmost concern.

Mattew 6:25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
Mat 6:26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

Yes, we are created to do good works. The BEST deed we can do is to let people understand thay are spiritually sick and in need of the Only One that can cure them. That, we cannot cure ourselves. We can only ease the temporal pain and suffering.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

It is HE that will fullfill all these things. I'm sorry Drew, but anyone who teaches anything other than this is teaching a different Gospel.

Again: With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.

side note; while the Matthew verses you posted do have a practical application in the scheme of things concerning the Kingdom, they are end times verses, judgement verses stating the fate of those subjected to the sheep and goat judgement. The verses tell us what's in store for those who either help or turn their back on (remnant) Isreal in their time of persecution and wrath.

 

[stranger]

Imagician,

Your OP. Is doctrine progressive or regressive?

Allow me to attempt to answer this. Doctrinal development whether progressive or recessive can be slow or fast because it has to do with people and movements. Which raises the question - what movement do you most closely identify with? With straight out error or heresy - there are doctrines that notably affect practice more than other doctrines - that is why Christians need to stand against homosexuality for instance. Then there is the more subtle variety - the sins of some men are not immediately apparent. .

How does it happen? People are deceived, led astray, have mistaken notions of God speaking to them when He did not, have false visions or are prone to false prophecy etc and others get carried away by their insincerity. . . I have even heard the the most dangerous is the acceptance of the good at the expense of the perfect. The delusion of the last days will be something subtle like offering believers a good alternative to short change them.

As for doctrine being progressive - each generation must claim the inheritence for themselves - it is not automatically given to us. Rightly speaking I would say 'doctrinal knowledge increases' but not at the expense of worship, communion, fellowship and love.

 

[Solo]

Drew,
Your stand concerning most doctrines that you have posted on in this forum are aligned with the false teachings of Christadelphia. Are you of the Christadelphian persuasion?

 

[Imagican]

I'd like to add one more thing to this discussion; when dealing with progressive revelation, we MUST limit ourselves to Biblical history. Only through God's continued progressive revealing of Himself through His Scripture will we see the revelations we seek. Anything over and above that will lead to all kinds of extra-Biblical doctrine.

Ahhhhh, Vic, see THAT is EXACTLY the kind of response I'm looking for. Not simple 'agreement' mind you, but statements containing an 'understanding of the nature' of the heading of this thread.

Thanks, for BOTH replies. Good stuff.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

OOOOOOOOO....K. I see.

If this IS what Drew has been alluding to, (our progress so far as 'technology' and such), then I must, once again offer that WE WERE created in the 'image of God'. Now, we know that God IS Spirit. So that was NOT the image to which I refer. What I Do refer to is that we ARE capable of understanding and manipulating that which WAS created BY God. Our minds were CERTAINLY a 'part' of the image. Our ability to reason and 'invent'. Primitive, no doubt, in an 'infant' type 'stage'. But that it was a 'part of our creation' is without doubt.

Now, WHAT exactly do we DO with this 'ability'. Do we use it to find more INTENSE ways to 'love our brothers'? Or is there 'something else' that guides MOST if not ALL of our 'progress' in these types of direction?

I do NOT choose to 'answer' these questions at this time. I think ANYONE that 'knows' me, (how I view 'our' situation), already has a 'pretty good' idea of what I would say. But I will offer that even with our 'advanced' technology, Spiritually, I STILL maintain my view as offered previous.

MEC

 

[stranger]

Ahhhhh, Vic, see THAT is EXACTLY the kind of response I'm looking for. Not simple 'agreement' mind you, but statements containing an 'understanding of the nature' of the heading of this thread.

Thanks, for BOTH replies. Good stuff.

MEC

Doctrinal progression in revelation, as Vic pointed out is set in the historical context of the day broadly speaking. But there is prophesy pertaining to the end times which affords us a projected historical development of how things pan out.

But the issue that you have not addressed is simply this - doctrinal progression, as pointed out in knowing the mind the Christ. Isn't this the task for the church? If the church can't know the mind of Christ how can the individual claim to? And so we have a long history of doctrinal progression and regression - yes there have been mistakes made and will be in the future - but there appears to be a core consensus regarding basic doctrines that most, not all, would subscribe to. What emerges from this when all is said and done - is to stand by default on the right side of history - not from a desire to know or be right but out of love because that is where God would have us stand.

 

[Imagican]

Ok, let me 'clarify'.

Oh, by the way Vic. Visited the site that you offered. Scary stuff, huh?

Now, what I am asking, from the 'beginning'. We KNOW that there are concepts found in The Word that ARE accepted as 'doctrine'. Many denominations, ONE Bible. My question is; has there been 'advancement' in understanding of God through individual 'doctrines' that have been created SINCE Christ died on the Cross? OR, have these doctrines simply been 'creations of men', (or something else), that have instead, lead us AWAY from the truth?

Now, before one even 'think' that I am 'unaware' let me clarify this as well. I am WELL aware that 'one's truth' is that which 'one BELIEVES' REGARDLESS of whether or NOT it aligns with ACTUAL truth. I believe that there IS, in truth, the exact example that we have been TOLD concerning ONE God. That the ONLY truth that exists in this UNIVERSE, (other than that we 'create' = untruth), IS God's truth. There can be NO truth that rivals that of The Creator. HE IS TRUTH.

Now, has His TRUTH already BEEN revealed THROUGH Jesus Christ, or is there 'some' other way that TRUTH has been revealed SINCE Jesus Christ. I know, I know. the apostles. OK, but these died shortly after Christ so far as history is concerned. So, let's start with the apostolic era ending. Have there TRULY been 'doctrinal changes' SINCE then that have been able to bring us CLOSER to God than what was available AT THE TIME OF the APOSTOLIC ERA?

MEC

 

[stranger]

Ok, let me 'clarify'.

Oh, by the way Vic. Visited the site that you offered. Scary stuff, huh?

Now, what I am asking, from the 'beginning'. We KNOW that there are concepts found in The Word that ARE accepted as 'doctrine'. Many denominations, ONE Bible. My question is; has there been 'advancement' in understanding of God through individual 'doctrines' that have been created SINCE Christ died on the Cross? OR, have these doctrines simply been 'creations of men', (or something else), that have instead, lead us AWAY from the truth?

Now, before one even 'think' that I am 'unaware' let me clarify this as well. I am WELL aware that 'one's truth' is that which 'one BELIEVES' REGARDLESS of whether or NOT it aligns with ACTUAL truth. I believe that there IS, in truth, the exact example that we have been TOLD concerning ONE God. That the ONLY truth that exists in this UNIVERSE, (other than that we 'create' = untruth), IS God's truth. There can be NO truth that rivals that of The Creator. HE IS TRUTH.

Now, has His TRUTH already BEEN revealed THROUGH Jesus Christ, or is there 'some' other way that TRUTH has been revealed SINCE Jesus Christ. I know, I know. the apostles. OK, but these died shortly after Christ so far as history is concerned. So, let's start with the apostolic era ending. Have there TRULY been 'doctrinal changes' SINCE then that have been able to bring us CLOSER to God than what was available AT THE TIME OF the APOSTOLIC ERA?

MEC

Hi,

OK, after the time of the Apostles and the writing of the new testament.

I can't dismiss the works of Godly men whom God approved and appointed and say that their writings, life and labours were to no avail. Nor can I set aside the scriptures and let them do the interpreting for me.

But let me also say that knowledge of revelation both general and special is increasing to which we have access. How any one person utilises that existing body of revelation depends, does it not, upon the person?

As for loving God AND BEING LOVED BY HIM . . I am more experiential and existential - we all are - so knowledge is of less importance as Paul says - it will pass away.

 

[Vic C.]

Ahhhhh, Vic, see THAT is EXACTLY the kind of response I'm looking for. Not simple 'agreement' mind you, but statements containing an 'understanding of the nature' of the heading of this thread.

Thanks, for BOTH replies. Good stuff.

MEC

Thanks. If Biblical history and progressive revelation interest you, you might want to check out the mp3's at this link:

http://www.covenantseminary.edu/worldwi ... /OT215.asp

It's a 26 mp3 study on Biblical Theology.

You might like them and they may even open your eyes to many things not yet considered. I got through the first two mp3's and had to listen to them a few times; it gets deep. :

I may forego any counterpoint to the Restoration Theology at this point for two reasons; no one seems to want to discuss it now and after reading a paper from Thomas Ice and a couple of others on the link I first posted, I wouldn't be able to say it as well as they did. 8-)

 

[Jay T]

What I ask is;

Has man found 'newer ways' in which to become 'closer' to God. Or, through time and change have we simply gravitated 'away' instead? And regardless of one's answer to this, how did it happen?

MEC

Bible prophecy says that a falling away would occur.....
2 Thess. 2:1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and [by] our gathering together unto him,
2:2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for [that day shall not come], except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

So a falling away would occur beforte Christ comes again.

Also, the Bible tells us that as in Noah day......
Matthew 24:37 But as the days of Noe [were], so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


AND, Christ even asked the question:
Would there be faith in the earth when He came again .......
Luke 18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?


As to how it happened ?
The Bible tells us how satan would gain control of the Christian world.....

We are approaching the end of this earth's history, and Satan is working as never before. He is striving to act as director of the Christian world (2 Corinthians 11:13-15).

With an intensity that is marvelous he is working with his lying wonders. Satan is represented as walking about as a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. He desires to embrace the whole world in his confederacy.

Hiding his deformity under the garb of Christianity, he assumes the attributes of a Christian Himself.


The Word of God declares that when it suits the enemy's purpose, he will through his agencies manifest so great a power under a pretense of Christianity that, "if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect"

As the spirits will profess faith in the Bible and manifest respect for the institutions of the church, their work will be accepted as a manifestation of divine power....speaking in tongues, miracles of healing (Revelation 16:13,14)
The strongest bulwark of vice in our world is not the iniquitous life of the abandoned sinner or the degraded outcast; it is that life which otherwise appears virtuous, honorable, and noble, but in which one sin is fostered, one vice indulged. . . . Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, may thus become decoys of Satan to entice souls over the precipice of ruin.


We have far more to fear from within than from without.

The hindrances to strength and success are far greater from the church itself than from the world.

Unbelievers have a right to expect that those who profess to be keeping the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, will do more than any other class to promote and honor, by their consistent lives, by their godly example and their active influence, the cause which they represent.

But how often have the professed advocates of the truth proved the greatest obstacle to its advancement!

The unbelief indulged, the doubts expressed, the darkness cherished, encourage the presence of evil angels, and open the way for the accomplishment of Satan's devices.

'satan, which deceives the whole world', (Revelation 12:9).

 

[Solo]

This falling away from sound doctrine began in the 1800s when false prophets entered the scene to lead people away from the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ such as the Millerites, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, etc.
This falling away just increased into the 1900s.

 

[Imagican]

Neither can I stranger. But I have been speaking NOT of 'the few', but of the masses. If we read through the entire body of The Word, we quickly find that there have been Numerous occasions when God's OWN prophets were belittled and spat upon by God's CHOSEN people. Those that were closest to Him. Yet had veered SO far from His Love that they wouldn't even listen to or understand those that He sent to guide them through His Word.

I will check them out Vic. Not to even indicate that I am unappreciative of ANYTHING anyone offers in ernst, I must say, however, I veiw 'commentary' very warily. Not that I do not believe there are MANY gifted indivuals that have MUCH to offer, but I have witnessed MANY that get 'taken in' by that which 'sounds good' and you and I 'both' know that there are CERTAINLY MANY out there WITH the power to influence. Usually TOO much energy to 'test' EVERYTHING that they say. A 'wolf' in 'sheep's clothing' is OFTEN hard to spot until the damage is ALREADY done.

Thanks again though and I WILL 'check them out'.

Oh, and PLEASE let me offer this:

This thread is NOT about ANY individual 'doctrine' of ANY particular denomination. I would simply like to explore others ideas concerning the validity of 'doctrine' that is 'created' rather than 'revealed' through ligitament uderstanding of 'scripture'.

It is OBVIOUS that there ARE 'deceptive' doctrine out there. How much or how little is CERTAINLY debatable. But THAT it exists is UNQUESTIONALBE. So, for us to 'begin' to understand HOW to protect ourselves FROM IT, first we need to understand the 'difference' between 'doctrine' offered DIRECTLY from God, and that which is simply interpreted by men that may or may not have guidance from The Spirit. Hence the subject of this thread.

Has doctrine TRULY evolved through The Spirit, or is MUCH of it simply philosophical rhetoric 'created' by men. Were we 'truly' left 'incomplete' after the apostolic era, or did Christ and His apostles give to us what was 'needed' in order to develope a 'closeness' with God that would allow us to KNOW what God wants for us?

We have TONS of advertising selling products to those that desire to 'lose' weight. Most are probably ALL but completely USELESS. People STILL buy them though. When EACH of us knows IN OUR HEART and MINDS that the KEY to weight loss is nutrition, diet and exercise.

Now is it something similar that we can 'see' when we veiw 'man-made' doctrine in such light? Do we have similar 'weaknesses' when it comes to 'doctrine' as well? Unsure of the 'truth' and willing to accept what others 'say' so long as it is appealing to our senses? See, THIS is what I brought up the subject to explore.

And regardless of my seeming callousness at times, please don't take offense if one tries to 'hijack' the thread and I 'step in' with a bit of chastisement. I don't want to turn this into AnYTHING other than a discussion of the validity of 'doctrine'. Whether one has an offering of opinion that it is PROGRESSIVE or REGRESSIVE I WELCOME IT. But let us PLEASE try to narrow it down to that which is pertinent to the subject.

Thanks guys and let us rest assured that if this is approached with honesty and sincerity it will offer 'understanding' that each and everyone of us can NEVER get enough of, God willing.

MEC

 

[Drew]

Drew,
Your stand concerning most doctrines that you have posted on in this forum are aligned with the false teachings of Christadelphia. Are you of the Christadelphian persuasion?

Never heard of them.

 

[Drew]

Yes, these material things do aid the suffering, the hungry, homeless, etc. But anyone can, and does, do these things. Even Atheists do these things. What they don't do is what we are first and foremost commanded to do; preach the Gospel. We are to let people know that they are in need of a Savior and that their eternal future is at stake without one.

If it is true that atheists do this as much as we do, that is a sad commentary on our faithfulness to living out what Jesus instructed to do.

To the extent that atheists do, in fact, do these things, I submit that this may often be evidence of the working out of the Kingdom - the values that the atheist latches onto arise from the Christian culture in which he lives, and he lives out some of those values even if he denies that Jesus is Lord.

Again, though, if it is really true that atheists provide as much material support to the poor, this is an indictment of the church.

We can make the here and now better for Man or we can help make it better for Man by making his spiritual fate our utmost concern.

This is a false choice and results, I think, from a pervasive (and I believe mistaken) belief in a distinction between man's life "here and now" and his spiritual fate. I suggest that the proper view is one where these things are knit together. Feeding the poor is a spiritual act as much as preaching the gospel. They are not the same act and one cannot abdicate responsibility for either. But to suggest that there are "physical" needs and "spiritual" needs is to suggest the existence of categories that I believe simply does not exist.

 

[Imagican]

JayT,

Thank you for offering 'clarification' concerning the 'state of mankind' at the present time.

Your offering coincides with scripture PERFECTLY in my understanding as well. I think sometimes that we really don't realize JUST how 'far' we have ALREADY 'fallen away' from TRUTH.

And YES. Satan HAS dominion over this planet and his MOST potent weapon is an 'emulation' of God or Christ. For we know that when he becomes manifest in 'the flesh' at THE LAST TIME, he WILL set himself up in the temple to be worshiped AS God. His miracles will EMULATE those performed by Christ, hence; with 'all lying wonders'. And the evidence indicates that MANY 'churches' have already been 'duped' by Satan into believing that they follow God when in reality, they follow the father of 'lies' instead.

Solo,

You are certainly right on target so far as there being a 'surge' in apostacy during the 1800's. However, I believe that we have MUCH scriptural evidence that the falling away started IMMEDIATELY after Christ's death. I don't mean, by ANY MEANS, that there has EVER been, nor will there be, a COMPLETE 'falling away'. But we know that Paul wrote NUMEROUS passages concerning 'divisions' and 'false prophets' that had ALREADY 'gone out' among the Christian community.

Thanks guys for trying to set the stage in the 'proper' perspective for this discussion to have a 'firm' basis from which to 'start'.

Now, I 'think' we begin to 'see' that this 'falling away' has BEEN a 'progressive' thing. So, what has been the 'biggest' contributing factor to aid this 'condition'? Sin? Satan? The flesh?

I believe that when we begin to 'dig' a 'bit deeper' it will become apparent that a 'veering' from truth began when 'doctrine' began to take the place of 'simple faith'. When men began to teach each other that there was MORE to 'the truth' than what was plainly offered through God's Word. The 'reason' that man chose this path is OBVIOUS. We have already agreed that Satan has POWER on this planet. Power to influence those that are NOT foundationally secure in their understanding of The Word.

And let us also observe the 'division' that 'doctrine' has caused in The Body of those that DO believe in Christ. No, NOT 'just' Christians, for 'doctrine' has also made it possible for this to be stated in that there are those that have allowed teachings to supersede that which is 'truth' in order to insert beliefs that would turn ONE brother in Christ against another. To the point that one would even go so far as to accuse ANYONE that doesn't believe as 'they do' of NOT being a Christian. All over doctrine that should NOT be able to do so.

For we have been commanded to LOVE our enemies AS OURSELVES. For this to be a commandment, then HOW is it even possible that 'doctrine' could turn ONE professor of Christ AS The Son of God against another, IF it was in FACT, Truth?

So, has doctrine been 'progressive' or 'regressive'?

MEC

 

[Vic C.]

... I will check them out Vic. Not to even indicate that I am unappreciative of ANYTHING anyone offers in ernst, I must say, however, I veiw 'commentary' very warily. Not that I do not believe there are MANY gifted indivuals that have MUCH to offer, but I have witnessed MANY that get 'taken in' by that which 'sounds good' and you and I 'both' know that there are CERTAINLY MANY out there WITH the power to influence. Usually TOO much energy to 'test' EVERYTHING that they say. A 'wolf' in 'sheep's clothing' is OFTEN hard to spot until the damage is ALREADY done.

8-) Who said this was commentary? The link I posted on Restoration is filled with commenrary. The course on Biblical Theology is not. It is 26, 45 minute lectures by Instructor Dr. Gerard Van Groningen, former professor at Covenant Theological Seminary. It would be like being there in person, except you're not and it's free! :-D

Just click on the link and check it out. :smt024 Biblical Theology Listen to the first two. What have you got to lose? 90 minutes of your time? :