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Is 'doctrine' Progressive or Regressive?

This is a false choice and results, I think, from a pervasive (and I believe mistaken) belief in a distinction between man's life "here and now" and his spiritual fate. I suggest that the proper view is one where these things are knit together. Feeding the poor is a spiritual act as much as preaching the gospel. They are not the same act and one cannot abdicate responsibility for either. But to suggest that there are "physical" needs and "spiritual" needs is to suggest the existence of categories that I believe simply does not exist.
John 4:7-14
7 A woman came out of Samaria to draw water. Jesus said to her, Give Me some to drink.
8 For His disciples had gone away into the city that they might buy provisions.
9 Then the Samaritan woman said to Him, How do You, being a Jew, ask to drink from me, I being a Samaritan woman? For Jews do not deal with Samaritans.
10 Jesus answered and said to her, If you knew the gift of God, and who is the One saying to you, Give Me to drink, you would have asked Him, and He would give you living water.
11 The woman said to Him, Sir, You have no vessel, and the well is deep. From where then do You have living water?
12 Are You greater than our father Jacob who gave us the well, and he and his sons and his livestock drank out of it?
13 Jesus answered and said to her, Everyone drinking of this water will thirst again;
14 but whoever may drink of the water which I will give him will not thirst, never! But the water which I will give to him will become a fountain of water in him, springing up into everlasting life. (litv)
 
Is the John 4 text supposed to "refute" my assertions about the false distinction between life "here and now" and one's spiritual fate?

If so, this text does not do the job.

Of course the person who drinks physical water will thirst again and the one who partakes of the water of life will not thirst again. However, this fact does no damage to my hypothesis - all it does is show that the "integrated spiritual-physical realm" has different types of "stuff" in it.

Suppose that someone tried to argue as follows:

1. The Universe will last forever
2. This apple will decay and rot
3. Therefore, there are 2 distinct realms.

This is not a valid conclusion. Similarly the fact of the distinction between one "type" of water and another is simply not grounds for concluding that these different types of water "inhabit" distinct realms.
 
Vic,

I listened to the 'first' audio this morning. Neat stuff. I will listen to the 'second' this evening.

MEC
 
Drew,

If you don't mind me 'asking', what denomination do you adhere to? NOT trying to be 'silly' by ANY means. I do NOT offer submission to ANY. So, I am ALWAYS curious to know what 'different' people 'follow'.

MEC
 
Imagican said:
Drew,

If you don't mind me 'asking', what denomination do you adhere to? NOT trying to be 'silly' by ANY means. I do NOT offer submission to ANY. So, I am ALWAYS curious to know what 'different' people 'follow'.

MEC
Hello Imagican:

I am not a member of any particular denomination. I am presently involved with a "house" church and would describe myself as a protestant Christian. At the risk of making myself sound like "my own man", I believe that I do not "absorb" beliefs from denominations, but rather try to come to my own understanding of what the Scriptures teach.
 
Solo said:
This falling away from sound doctrine began in the 1800s when false prophets entered the scene to lead people away from the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ such as the Millerites, the Seventh-day Adventists, the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Mormons, etc.
This falling away just increased into the 1900s.
NO....the falling away occurred in the 3rd century...as the church adopted Sunday worship services, plus other false doctrines, such as the Immortal soul doctrine, from paganism.
 
Jay T said:
NO....the falling away occurred in the 3rd century...as the church adopted Sunday worship services, plus other false doctrines, such as the Immortal soul doctrine, from paganism.

Jay,

I 'somewhat' agree with this. I think you have read enough of my past posts to realize my 'opinion' of the CC.

But we do KNOW that Paul offered MANY warnings to the people of the time in his epistles that there were ALREADY those that had 'veered' from 'the truth' and were 'teaching' this to those that were 'attempting' to learn of The Word.

While there was a 'surge' durring the period that you mention, we kNOW there was ONLY a 'remnant saved' from the 'beginning'. This points to the 'nature' of the flesh. And that being that; NOT ONLY were the Hebrew/Jewish folks a 'stiff necked people', but ALL mankind is a 'bit stiff-necked'. In that the 'flesh' follows after the 'flesh'. The spirit of man follows NATURALLY that which is desirable to 'the flesh'. Only a 'few' are 'truyly' touched by The Spirit and ONLY these are able to follow after The Spirit. This is simply the 'nature' of the flesh.

So, I will certainly agree with 'both' comments concerning the 'falling away', (that there HAVE been periods of history when this 'falling away' was at it's 'greatest' momentum), I believe that it 'started' immediately after The Word began to spread. Especially as it began to spread to the Gentiles.

MEC
 
Drew,

I was trying to think about your very first post over the weekend to try to understand your view better. I have also tried to catch up on this thread, but I admit I did not do careful reading. I would like to comment, but if I restate something someone else has said forgive me, because I am unable to spend much time.

My thoughts were this...

Now, if God's people are increasing...meaning that since He sent His Spirit after Christ's work on the cross, and commanded us to go unto all nations and preach the Gospel, that people are coming to belief (in word and deed) in this age in greater numbers compared to all others, then I can agree that His Kingdom is being furthered in this age, but I also believe it will taper off...or probably already has, because of counterfeits, false teaching, and vanity of man, etc. Secondly, because of God's children here, there are blessings being poured out on all, but also I think God does send judgement to try and turn hearts to Him in general, and in His church. Third, because of technology we have more advanced medicine, communications, etc., and what seems to be more comfortable, and more luxurious living, but I think this is a double-edged sword.

The Tower of Babel comes to mind for me. Even if the world is better in some ways, it's not in other ways. The natural things seem to have been abandoned...like natural foods, more natural medicines (herbs, preventitive diet), working hard, living simply free from materialsim, etc., though some are making a good living trying to market these things more. The increase of medicines, materialism, toleration of immorality, has brought on a combination of greed, new diseases, immorality without consequences, side affects of medicines that cause disorders, allergies on the rise, enviromental problems, digestive issues increasing due to absence of bacteria, immunity to antibiotics, etc., and I think a whole bunch of social problems. There are other things too...addictions to things like shopping, computer games, internet, porn, etc. I guess we can think of lots of thing that seem better in ways...like tooth decay, and people living longer, doing laundry in few hours, but while God may use such things to teach, corrrect, and even spread His Word to His children, there is still a very satanic side to all of it. For example, I can do laundry in a few hours, but how many clothes do we own, and how much is being spent on such items, does more time an energy actually go to these things even more now than before? Ist it a false sense of improvement?

Back to the Babel thought....

If the languages were confused, because of man's shared knowledge leading to apostasy back then, and this was after Noah's flood, then I think once again we see that this communication level is near again...one language that all may understand, even if it is through translations. God will use it, and is, but it will also serve the evil of man, and does, as they become more apostate...I honestly think atheism is on the rise now more than ever...though this I believe this is just a rising label for the same old unbelief. Mankind as a whole (those apart from God, and even believers walking here) is more corrupt because of our tolerance of sin, and it's deceitfulness, and apostasy not only of men, but of the church.

The Bible asks will Christ find faith on Earth when He returns? This seems to indicate that at least at the very end there will be a lack of it, as in the days of Noah when only he and his family were spared. I realize you agree with this, but I am also thinking that after Noah was Babel.

I tried to think of a Scripture that supports what you are saying, at least what I think you are saying, and Malachi last chapter comes to mind. It seems there will be a curse (given over to God completely through destruction) averted with the apperance of Elijah (Elijah-like person?) who will spark a revival that will restore for a while...turning hearts of fathers and sons toward one another again. This seems to mean that things will get worse and worse, be restored for a time, but then we know the end will definately not come because we have gotten better. I know home edcuators who believe this is happening to a degree with the teachings of Father's leading their homes, and a movement toward families in the church, and even in government...I am not sure I agree. I haven't seen Elijah yet, nor does there seem to be one in history so far. Also, homosexuality, and other alternative family structures, are on the rise due to divorce, abandoment, etc. Now, I could see how someone might think that God is putting things in place for such a time on many levels...and I think that this could be true of how God works...but I think that this is more than just prosperity, or restoration, of society and culture...like food supply, economy, disease, etc. (Which could come by God using this information age, or destroying it again)....I think it is actually a sparing, and a restoration, based on a revival of the church through this Elijah type person for the most part...like John the Baptist's message of repent, be baptised, for the Kingdom is at hand. This preparation could lead to an actual Kingdom here maybe (where men are no longer in apostasy for a season), or like a millenial reign type scenerio with Jesus ruling, but I am not positive about this issue as God has not taught me greatly in the end times area. I tend to reject a lot that it is out there, but I am unsure why right now, but at this point do not fall into any category as the Lord is still speaking to me on the subject.

The Lord bless you.
 
Fantastic post Josh, thanks for bringing in the other side of the story! It was very well done!

You are most welcome. I just try to keep things in perspective. :)

P.S. And wow this thread has boomed since I last posted...
 
Vic C. said:
MEC, I agree! :lol: The conquest will not be God through his people, but the conquest will be by God Himself! Actually, let me restate that; the conquest was completed when Jesus conquered death and was resurrected;thus defeating the Adversary for those who put their trust and Faith in Christ. Since Man has shown throughout Biblical history (emphesis on Biblical) it was God's Plan from the beginning to "step" in and "save the day".

Well I have to disagree at one point. How could man's relationship with God just have degraded (as Imagician has argued) if God's grace has stepped in already to save his people and to make them victorious here on earth?

And yes in a sense God can carry out conquests through his people (not complete conquest - I know God will be the final intervener and judge on the Day of the LORD, but...), because recall what it says in Daniel, "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits." (Daniel 11:32)

Let us strive to know God and we will grow only stronger and closer to Him in this life!


God Bless,

~Josh
 
Now, if God's people are increasing...meaning that since He sent His Spirit after Christ's work on the cross, and commanded us to go unto all nations and preach the Gospel, that people are coming to belief (in word and deed) in this age in greater numbers compared to all others, then I can agree that His Kingdom is being furthered in this age, but I also believe it will taper off...or probably already has, because of counterfeits, false teaching, and vanity of man, etc. Secondly, because of God's children here, there are blessings being poured out on all, but also I think God does send judgement to try and turn hearts to Him in general, and in His church. Third, because of technology we have more advanced medicine, communications, etc., and what seems to be more comfortable, and more luxurious living, but I think this is a double-edged sword.

The Tower of Babel comes to mind for me. Even if the world is better in some ways, it's not in other ways. The natural things seem to have been abandoned...like natural foods, more natural medicines (herbs, preventitive diet), working hard, living simply free from materialsim, etc., though some are making a good living trying to market these things more. The increase of medicines, materialism, toleration of immorality, has brought on a combination of greed, new diseases, immorality without consequences, side affects of medicines that cause disorders, allergies on the rise, enviromental problems, digestive issues increasing due to absence of bacteria, immunity to antibiotics, etc., and I think a whole bunch of social problems. There are other things too...addictions to things like shopping, computer games, internet, porn, etc. I guess we can think of lots of thing that seem better in ways...like tooth decay, and people living longer, doing laundry in few hours, but while God may use such things to teach, corrrect, and even spread His Word to His children, there is still a very satanic side to all of it. For example, I can do laundry in a few hours, but how many clothes do we own, and how much is being spent on such items, does more time an energy actually go to these things even more now than before? Ist it a false sense of improvement?

You know, you are partly right, however I have realized that my disparaging view of the corruption of modern society really only applies to non-3rd-World countries (the US, Britian, etc...). You don't hear of the wonderful miracles spoken of in Acts and the Gospels happening in America (among the multitudinous Atheists and even 'false religionists'), however not too many people in America pay attention to the fact that they (great miracles) are happening in 3rd-World countries and impoverished areas around the world. I have heard of miracles that would knock your socks off if I told you what was happening. As if a small confirmation a friend of mine told me the other day that revivals are happening in almost every other country except America, and even told me one of his missionary groups was in contact with an underground Christian movement in Afghanistan. These 3rd-World countries don't have the "fineries" with which America has spoiled itself on, becoming bratty and stagnant, and are far more centered on the basics of life - so much as to reflect biblical times (like the Thessalonians) - like living in a simple argricultural society and your entire life consists around that - no technology, no fancy items, maybe even no cars (almost like the Amish way of living). These areas which are not distracted by the widespread appeal of the New Age's "material appeal" (TV, clothes, digital gadgets, magazines, rock CD's, etc...) are far more open to God's movement and are less distracted than people who live in America & Britain. I believe God is still at work but we just don't hear about it, or worse, we just don't listen or take notice of what's really going on in the world.

But I thank God for his movements in other countries! Thank you Jesus for saving the lost and hopeless!

Sincerely,

~Josh
 
reply

I believe the one thing that is blocking revival in America is religion. Too many religious spirits are abounding in America. But I believe most people are looking for something and that something is Jesus Christ as a personal Lord and Savior and with power for people to be healed and delivered. It is up to us real Christians to demonstrate what we are about. It is really sad when some Christians are allowing homosexuality in their Churches, don't rely on the Word of God, and even to the point of saying the Word is really not inspired. If we don't go out now and preach and teach the Gospel message we could lose a generation. Get out of religion and get into reconcilation. I say GO, GO GO before it is too late.



May God bless, Golfjack
 
I believe the one thing that is blocking revival in America is religion. Too many religious spirits are abounding in America. But I believe most people are looking for something and that something is Jesus Christ as a personal Lord and Savior and with power for people to be healed and delivered. It is up to us real Christians to demonstrate what we are about.

Very true. And recall what I quoted from Daniel a few posts above, which points out how the "real Christians" will be the one's who "know their God" and "carry out great exploits" (a.k.a. "demonstrate what we are about"). And we can do it too! Reject the spirit of negativity and defeat and say, "I'm going to fight stagnation in my Christian life and in the Church at all costs, and by God's grace I will prevail!" With that attitude and a proper attitude of humbleness and daily coming to God in prayer to ask for direction we can turn this country on its side for God if it is within his will to allow it! Let us take on all aspects of life with the Sword of the Spirit in expectancy of victory and not defeat!

God Bless,

~Josh
 
Re: reply

golfjack said:
I believe the one thing that is blocking revival in America is religion. Too many religious spirits are abounding in America. But I believe most people are looking for something and that something is Jesus Christ as a personal Lord and Savior and with power for people to be healed and delivered. It is up to us real Christians to demonstrate what we are about. It is really sad when some Christians are allowing homosexuality in their Churches, don't rely on the Word of God, and even to the point of saying the Word is really not inspired. If we don't go out now and preach and teach the Gospel message we could lose a generation. Get out of religion and get into reconcilation. I say GO, GO GO before it is too late.



May God bless, Golfjack

Amen, my brother.

MEC
 
cybershark5886 said:
Well I have to disagree at one point. How could man's relationship with God just have degraded (as Imagician has argued) if God's grace has stepped in already to save his people and to make them victorious here on earth?

And yes in a sense God can carry out conquests through his people (not complete conquest - I know God will be the final intervener and judge on the Day of the LORD, but...), because recall what it says in Daniel, "Those who do wickedly against the covenant he shall corrupt with flattery; but the people who know their God shall be strong, and carry out great exploits." (Daniel 11:32)

Let us strive to know God and we will grow only stronger and closer to Him in this life!


God Bless,

~Josh

I believe part of the answer to your question is that to 'be victorious' is NOT to 'conquer this WORLD', but to defeat 'death' through 'life'. And 'straight is the gate and narrow IS the WAY that leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it'.

My point. The indication is that there will be FEW that 'overcome' the temptations of this life and receive the gift.

0h, I'd like to 'think' that it's as simple as saying 'I believe in Christ', (as many 'seem to think' it is), but I belive that it's a 'bit' more intricate that that. For there WILL be many that say this and direct it towards a 'different' Christ. For these, they are blinded and lost, REGARDLESS of what name they pray in, God KNOWS their hearts and 'who' they TRULY worship.

And PLEASE, let's us take the 'state' of God's people to 'some other thread'. I do not desire to discuss that issue on a thread that was designed to deal with DOCTRINE rather than the 'state of man'. Yes, the state of man is certainly an imiportant issue, but THE issue here concerns 'doctrine', NOT whether God's presence exists.


Now, some neat points have been rasised so far.

Let me see if I can offer a brief 'semi-summary'.

Doctrine DOES have an influence on the beliefs of the 'general congregation'. MOST doctrine is 'believed' to be inspired. Doctrine itself is CERTAINLY 'evolving'. And most believe that it's been doing so 'for the best?' That man is becoming MORE enlightened to God's Word and in greater numbers than 'ever before'?

Ok.

I agree with some of this and some of it is obviously 'tainted' by the very doctrine that I believe is REGRESSIVE. I know that there are many that have been 'influenced' by the 'church thing'. By this I refer to the 'part' of churches that seems to 'demand' that everyone 'act' the 'same' way when discussing things pertaining to God. That MOST are placed in a position of 'feeling' that there is certain 'behavior' that MUST be adhered to in order to be 'accepted' as 'one of us'.

This is NOT necessarily a 'bad' thing. But sometimes I think that many don't really understand why and do it out of 'emulation' rather than 'understanding'.

My point? It's real easy to take the position that; becaue God is 'good' and that He LOVES us, that 'everything is going to be OK'. That because 'we' are going to church, or reading 'a little' in the Bible. Or throwing a 'few bucks' in the plate each week leads us tobelieve that we are OK. Choosing to 'see' God as some sort of 'cure all' for everything.

Now, to break it down. First of all, the MOST dramatic change that I have seen in 'technology' is NOTHING more than the 'comfort' that it offers so far as making our lives more 'trouble free' so far as 'work' is concerned.

Where did THIS idea 'come from'? I know, I've heard it stated with each sucsessive generation, "Boy, things sure were tougher when I was a kid''. or 'We didn't have all this stuff when I was a kid''. or 'we use to play with an old tire rim with a stick'', kinda stuff.

Have put on 'a few' years myself, I MUST admit that the 'living' of life is EASIER than it EVER has been in history, (for the majority of those to which I speak). BUT, does this really have ANYTHING to do with God? Is this REALLY what He would 'choose' for us? To simply seek out an 'easier life'. One with LESS work and more 'comfort'? Hmmmmm..............

I DON'T think so. As a matter of fact, I don't just, 'not think so', I believe that we have MUCH scriptural PROOF that this is CERTAINLY NOT what He would have for those that 'seek after HIM'.

We DO have an example of EXACTLY 'what' God would 'have of us'. What HE KNOWS is BEST for us. And exactly 'what' He has offered in return. And we DO have HIS Word that offers that this is NOT POSSIBLE until the WORLD is taken out of The Church.

Now, what happened to 'allow' those that 'think' that 'this life is 'closer' to God's plan' than that of two thousand years ago'? Most that have posted can clearly SEE the point that I'm trying to make here. Most realize 'just what a mess' this world is in. I ask those that 'realize' this as I have portrayed, 'the state of mankind', and ask you this, HOW is it that there are ANY others that 'see' this 'differently'? Where did 'their understanding' COME FROM?

Let's see where we 'go' with this.

MEC
 
Hi Imagican:

I must admit I find your last post a little confusing. First, you state:

Imagican said:
And PLEASE, let's us take the 'state' of God's people to 'some other thread'. I do not desire to discuss that issue on a thread that was designed to deal with DOCTRINE rather than the 'state of man'. Yes, the state of man is certainly an imiportant issue, but THE issue here concerns 'doctrine', NOT whether God's presence exists.

But then you wrote:

Imagican said:
Now, to break it down. First of all, the MOST dramatic change that I have seen in 'technology' is NOTHING more than the 'comfort' that it offers so far as making our lives more 'trouble free' so far as 'work' is concerned.

Where did THIS idea 'come from'? I know, I've heard it stated with each sucsessive generation, "Boy, things sure were tougher when I was a kid''. or 'We didn't have all this stuff when I was a kid''. or 'we use to play with an old tire rim with a stick'', kinda stuff.

Have put on 'a few' years myself, I MUST admit that the 'living' of life is EASIER than it EVER has been in history, (for the majority of those to which I speak). BUT, does this really have ANYTHING to do with God? Is this REALLY what He would 'choose' for us? To simply seek out an 'easier life'. One with LESS work and more 'comfort'? Hmmmmm..............

I DON'T think so. As a matter of fact, I don't just, 'not think so', I believe that we have MUCH scriptural PROOF that this is CERTAINLY NOT what He would have for those that 'seek after HIM'.

We DO have an example of EXACTLY 'what' God would 'have of us'. What HE KNOWS is BEST for us. And exactly 'what' He has offered in return. And we DO have HIS Word that offers that this is NOT POSSIBLE until the WORLD is taken out of The Church.
This sounds very much like you are talking about the "state of man", something you say that you do not want this thread to focus on. I thought that you wanted this thread to focus on the matter of the evolution of doctrine.

Imagican said:
Now, what happened to 'allow' those that 'think' that 'this life is 'closer' to God's plan' than that of two thousand years ago'? Most that have posted can clearly SEE the point that I'm trying to make here. Most realize 'just what a mess' this world is in. I ask those that 'realize' this as I have portrayed, 'the state of mankind', and ask you this, HOW is it that there are ANY others that 'see' this 'differently'? Where did 'their understanding' COME FROM?
Your point is indeed obvious but your supporting evidence is simply not there. Why, exactly, are we mistaken who believe that things are getter better? You seem to expect us to all see that it is simply obvious that things are going downhill. This is not at all obvious to me.
 
Drew,

You OBVIOUSLY didn't 'understand' WHY I offered to 'answer' the question that you seem to be in desire of an answer to. And, if you will 'have a little patience', you Will see my 'point'. Notice that the LAST post that I made was NOT directed towards you or those that 'feel' the 'same' way as you. It was directed to 'those that DON'T'. And I am NOT trying to be 'silly' or 'rude', simply pointing out that; since you obviously don't understand the 'point' yet, I promise, if you'll hang in there for a 'few', it will SOON become 'aparent'.

So, I did not 'contradict' myself as you seem to 'want' to 'think'. There is TOTAL validity in my statement directing the thread BACK to it's original theme, and I simply tried to ANSWER as much of this 'state of man' at the same time.

MEC
 
I'd like to say that doctrine should be progressive, BUT as Scripture says of the endtimes, it is regressive.......to the point of Christianty dying out, as Jesus Christ and the disciples taught it.

Remember what Jesus said about His return to this earth.......'will there be faith in the earth' ?

Jesus Christ and all the disciples upheld the Law of God as the very standard of Righteousness.
YET, in today's so-called Christianty....the Law of God is trampled upon and disregarded, as being of no importance in the Christian's life.

As it is written: 'satan, which deceives the whole world', (Revelation 12:9).
 
Jay T said:
I'd like to say that doctrine should be progressive, BUT as Scripture says of the endtimes, it is regressive.......to the point of Christianty dying out, as Jesus Christ and the disciples taught it.

Remember what Jesus said about His return to this earth.......'will there be faith in the earth' ?

Jesus Christ and all the disciples upheld the Law of God as the very standard of Righteousness.
YET, in today's so-called Christianty....the Law of God is trampled upon and disregarded, as being of no importance in the Christian's life.

As it is written: 'satan, which deceives the whole world', (Revelation 12:9).

AH HA!!!

Now THAT'S The Truth. NO, beating around the bush or 'wishful' thinking. Just STRAIGHT out TRUTH.

That bout SUMS IT UP folks. I don't know what else to 'say'. This is THE 'answer'. Doctrine SHOULD be 'progressive', but we KNOW that it is NOT. For 'doctrine' is what has 'altered' the TRUTH into 'falsehood'. And it MUST be this way for Satan to 'trick' the world into worshiping him AS GOD.

This 'should' END this thread. I know that it won't. But this IS the answer that I knew would be offered by 'someone'. Short and Sweet. TRUTH usually is.

Thanks JayT. We seldom agree upon 'much doctrine', but at least we can BOTH agree to it's effects.

MEC.
 
Matthew 24

"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father. As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.
 
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