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[_ Old Earth _] Is evolution a fact or a theory?

B.A.C. said:
What specifically are you speaking of that will never happen? Speciation? What kind of changes would have to take place for you to call it a "new species"?

Well, for one thing Scientists can't even define what a species is, unless there has been a recent development. Secondly, we have never seen a new "kind" of animal arise from an existing "kind" of animal. I think that's pretty clear, no?

The ambiguity of what a species is arises mainly from biodiversity that is ever changing and our feeble attempts to categorize it into nice and easy little boxes - boxes that nature is under no obligation to fit itself into.

And, no. It's not clear at all. "Kinds" is far more ambiguous than the rigourous definitions laid out for various species concepts, but are we narrowing it down to the animal kingdom for our purposes here? How much change would it require to meet your criteria for a new "kind"? Separation of a population into filling different niches and no longer naturally interbreeding? Some arbitrary amount of morphological change? Inability of the descendants of a population to interbreed due to prezygotic or postzygotic barriers to reproduction? Some defined percentage of genetic change within a single population as compared to its ancestral population? Other things? Some combination of these?

B.A.C. said:
Yes I did inadvertently contradict myself,
Quite alright. This was a main part of my objection to the lack of clarity.

I'm afraid I may have to respond to the rest later. I've been overwhelmed with work... always just seems to keep piling itself up...
 
How much change would it require to meet your criteria for a new "kind"? Separation of a population into filling different niches and no longer naturally interbreeding? Some arbitrary amount of morphological change? Inability of the descendants of a population to interbreed due to prezygotic or postzygotic barriers to reproduction? Some defined percentage of genetic change within a single population as compared to its ancestral population? Other things? Some combination of these?

How about observational evidence of Australopithecus afarensis evolving into H.s.s.

http://anthropology.si.edu/humanorigins/ha/a_tree.html

Note the question marks. ;)
 
coelacanth said:
B.A.C. said:
The ambiguity of what a species is arises mainly from biodiversity that is ever changing and our feeble attempts to categorize it into nice and easy little boxes - boxes that nature is under no obligation to fit itself into.

Feeble attempts hits it right on the nail head.

And, no. It's not clear at all. "Kinds" is far more ambiguous than the rigourous definitions laid out for various species concepts, but are we narrowing it down to the animal kingdom for our purposes here? How much change would it require to meet your criteria for a new "kind"? Separation of a population into filling different niches and no longer naturally interbreeding? Some arbitrary amount of morphological change? Inability of the descendants of a population to interbreed due to prezygotic or postzygotic barriers to reproduction? Some defined percentage of genetic change within a single population as compared to its ancestral population? Other things? Some combination of these?

More "tradespeak". "Kinds" is not an ambiguous definition, Dogs = Dog family, Cat = Cat family, etc. You make it ambiguous with Biological Definitions. Call it what you will, you can dig up every theory and scientific jargon you want, the simple fact is, one "kind" of animal has NEVER became a different "kind" of animal. Is this too simple for you to wrap your head around?

In Jesus,

BAC
 
More "tradespeak". "Kinds" is not an ambiguous definition

Extremely ambigous. In fact, creation "baraminologists" have repeatedly tried to provide a rigorous definition,and have always failed. The reason is, as noted above, they need to have all cat-like animals in one kind, but that definition puts humans and other apes in a single "kind."

Dogs = Dog family, Cat = Cat family, etc. You make it ambiguous with Biological Definitions. Call it what you will, you can dig up every theory and scientific jargon you want, the simple fact is, one "kind" of animal has NEVER became a different "kind" of animal.

Happens all the time. Hoofed mammals became whales. Unspecialized carnivores split off to become dogs and bears. And so on. If you argue that no one ever lived long enough to see it happen, neither has anyone lived long enough to see a giant redwood grow from a seed. But we have enough evidence to conclude both happen.

All you need to establish the "kind" barrier, is to show us what it is. What makes hyenas impossible, for example? What makes a transitional between a mammal and a reptile impossible? Show us details.

Is this too simple for you to wrap your head around?

Well, let's see how you do. Then we'll decide.
 
B.A.C. said:
More "tradespeak". "Kinds" is not an ambiguous definition, Dogs = Dog family, Cat = Cat family, etc. You make it ambiguous with Biological Definitions. Call it what you will, you can dig up every theory and scientific jargon you want, the simple fact is, one "kind" of animal has NEVER became a different "kind" of animal. Is this too simple for you to wrap your head around?

In Jesus,

BAC

It's too simple period. I can wrap my head around it enough to know it is appealing because it makes everything seem easy to categorize, but the reality of living organisms does not fit your simplistic desires. If "kinds" was an unambiguous definition, it would have been adopted by science to describe the world. Living things have changed. I ask you again, what would it take for one "kind" to be considered a new "kind"? Please use unambiguous definitions.
 
Evolution is a theory. In science a theory is the highest proof there is, with a huge amount of evidence needed before anything reaches that status. I think some of the problem is the language and some people lack of scientific knowledge. Many people refer to the word "theory" as meaning a hunch or an idea, which it is in common language. As mentioned that meaning does not apply to science. A hunch or an idea in science is merely that; a good idea then becomes a hypothesis which can be tested or researched. Once enough evidence is researched and accepted worldwide by top scholars then it become a theory and taught in schools.
Scientific theory does not equate to the term fact, as scientific theory is a means to demonstrate
how a particular thing functions such as how gravity affects an apple falling. All theories are open to modification, but to my knowledge no real theory in science has been thrown out or shown to have
lack of authoritative support, They are modified or simply replaced by a theory that gives better explanations to natural phenomena. For example Relativity in some sense replaced Newtons laws of motion, and now quantum and string theories are replacing relativity. Despite this, in every day life for calculating trajectories of rockets and space craft Newtons theories still work with infinite precision.
It is just that Newtons theories do not explain what is needed to explain.
Scientific theories can be regarded as modifiable laws of nature.
yours
ÒõýþüäðýóÖ
 
The laws of nature are not modified just peoples explanation of them. Scientist when they finally realise they have better answers come up with better theories and I guess the old ones are modified by consensus. Sort of like the Astronomical Authority kicking poor Pluto out of the Solar System as a planet.
VFX
 
VenomFangX said:
The laws of nature are not modified just peoples explanation of them. Scientist when they finally realise they have better answers come up with better theories and I guess the old ones are modified by consensus. Sort of like the Astronomical Authority kicking poor Pluto out of the Solar System as a planet.
VFX

If you're saying that scientists don't get to change the definition of theory then it's not the word theory that's important lol, you could call them skwarks for all I care, it's about the definition.

In Science, a theory is a hypothesis (An explanation of patterns in facts) that has passed the peer review process, has an amazingly large amount of evidence in favor or it and none/almost none against and has survived years upon years of self-critical observation.

In Science, a fact is an observation. Any observation is a fact, for example that the sky is blue.


Firstly, you go out and find some facts (Observe). For example, you might make the observation that we share 98% of our DNA with other apes, or that the history of continental drift coincides exactly with what we've determined from DNA tracing.

Based on millions of these observations (facts) you create a hypothesis that attempts to explain why they are like that (Intelligent design hypothesis for example, or back in the 19th century what was then the evolutionary hypothesis). The hypothesis doesn't have to be supported by evidence or proven in any way to be a hypothesis, it only has to explain the observations (facts).

This untested hypothesis is then tested by those who wish to develop it into a theory (A proven hypothesis), and if they find sufficient evidence that goes towards confirming their hypothesis they collect these results into a scientific paper and publish it in a peer reviewed journal. Hundreds of employed scientists then try as hard as they can to find some fault in your experiments/findings, if they do then your paper is denied publication (And you go back to the drawing board with their criticisms).

If you pass this peer review process you then move on to getting a consensus in the scientific community (Which isn't a hard thing to do if your hypothesis is correct). Once this has occurred you have a scientific theory; the highest position awarded for any explanation. This theory doesn't evolve into a fact, it explains facts.

This is a simplified (there are a few more requirements) process for the creation of a scientific theory. Only theories are scientifically justified to be taught in schools (According to the state constitution, which requires science taught to be accurate).

You can't just skip this process, insert your hypothesis into the schools and expect it to be accepted, do like the rest of us do and pass it through the scientific criticism.




I'll give you two different definitions of the words fact and theory and explain how evolution conforms to them.

Colloquial language
Fact: Evolution is a fact
Theory: Evolution isn't a theory, it's more than that.

Scientific language
Fact: No, evolution explains facts
Theory: Yes


Depending on who you're talking to it's either.
 
So who is disagreeing with you?? Certainly not me..you are saying exactly what I have been saying around here for a long time. :study
 
The Barbarian said:
The question marks are not in the line from afarensis to Homo sapiens. Take another look.

The question mark is anything prior to Ergaster. Afarensis doesn't even make the cut. Nor do Habilis and Rudolfensis.
 
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