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[_ Old Earth _] Is evolutionism compatible with the Bible?

You showed me Cygnus' new doctrine of "evolutionism." That has nothing to do with science.

That is nonsense! This is your conjecture that is not supported by the facts of science:

A Google search for evolutionism gives over a million results—with the vast majority of uses coming from evolutionists themselves! A search for evolutionism on Google Books gives over 200,000 results and on Google Scholar (generally limited to the academic and scientific literature) about 25,000 results.

So why is there a seeming reluctance to admit the very existence of such a commonly used word as evolutionism? Most likely it involves the shade of meaning that the suffix -ism adds to the word evolution. When the -ism suffix is added to a word it forms complex nouns that often imply a system of belief or worldview, and this is what many evolutionists refuse to acknowledge about evolution. To put a point on it, evolutionists do not want you to associate belief with evolution (Dr David Menton).​

Evolutionism demonstrates a belief in evolution. Evolutionists who believe in the worldview of evolution are practising evolutionism.

Dr Menton continues:

So is evolution a belief system? Evolution is necessarily a belief because molecules-to-man evolution is not observable but rather must be inferred and believed. This is why evolutionists are stumped when asked to give an observable example of one kind of creature evolving into a different kind of creature. If pressed, they inevitably give an example of limited variation within a kind that is not a contested issue between evolutionists and creationists. It clearly takes a lot of credulity (willingness to believe without evidence) for evolutionists to believe that an expanding cloud of hydrogen turned into people over 14 billion years.
You have been promoting a lot of evolutionism on this thread. It's your belief in evolution that you consider to be fact but it is a theory that cannot be observed, so it is inferred and believed. It's a system of faith.

Oz
 
That is nonsense! This is your conjecture that is not supported by the facts of science:

Notice the numerous misconceptions that Cygnus has attached to his now doctrine of "evolutionism." You actually confused one element of it, yourself, linking to a site that presented the "monkey to man", orthogenesis belief as evolutionary theory.

So why is there a seeming reluctance to admit the very existence of such a commonly used word as evolutionism?

I use it myself. "Evolutionism" is the set of misconceptions that creationists have about evolution. There are numerous examples. Here's a short (but by no means complete) set of differences between the creationist doctrine of "evolutionism" and evolution:

The Creationist-invented ideology of evolutionism is very different from evolution. To help the discussion, here are a few differences:

Evolutionism:
Evolutionism is a random process.
Evolutionism about the origin of life.
Evolutionism says individuals evolve.
Evolutionism says that if there are humans, there shouldn’t be any apes left.
Evolutionism says organisms try to adapt.
Evolutionism has no evidence.
Many scientists doubt evolutionism.
Evolutionism leads to immoral behavior.
Evolutionism says scientists should want humans to have lots of mutations.
Evolutionism is contrary to the Bible

Evolution
Evolution is a non-random process.
Evolution is not about the origin of life.
Populations evolve, not individuals.
Apes and humans have a common ancestor. Humans did not evolve from apes living today.
Adaptation are happen through random mutation and natural selection.
There are many, many different sources of evidence for evolution.
The vast majority of scientists accept evolution.
Evolution does not say anything about morals or ethics.
More mutations will not make evolution go faster. A high rate of mutations is generally harmful.
Evolution is consistent with the Bible.


Most likely it involves the shade of meaning that the suffix -ism adds to the word evolution.

Yep. We also have the false doctrine of "scientism", which is very different from science, and "creatonism", which is quite unlike creation.

When the -ism suffix is added to a word it forms complex nouns that often imply a system of belief or worldview, and this is what many evolutionists refuse to acknowledge about evolution.

How silly. You might as well say that chemistry is a belief system or a world view.

To put a point on it, evolutionists do not want you to associate belief with evolution

"Belief", in the usage of so many creationists, depends on conflation of meanings:

"Scientists believe (based on evidence from physics and geology) that the there was one continent hundreds of millions of years ago."
"I believe (based on my intuitive knowledge of human nature) that you are joking."
"I believe (based on faith and natural law given to all men) that there is only one God, and He is the creator of all things."
"I believe (based on my preferences) I will have another Guinness."

Pretending that these are all the same, is the game of too many YE creationists.

Evolutionism demonstrates a belief in evolution.

No. As you see, it's a rejection of many parts of evolution, in favor of imaginative but untrue beliefs.

Evolutionists who believe in the worldview of evolution are practising evolutionism.

"Chemists who believe in the worldview of chemistry are practicing chemicalism." Just as silly as yours.

So is evolution a belief system? Evolution is necessarily a belief because molecules-to-man evolution is not observable but rather must be inferred and believed.

Ah, your guy is talking about the creationist belief of "evolutionism", not evolution. As you just discovered, evolution is not about the origin of life.

This is why evolutionists are stumped when asked to give an observable example of one kind of creature evolving into a different kind of creature.

This is why botanists are stumped when asked to give an observable example of a giant redwood growing to maturity from a seedling. However, they know it's a fact, because genetics shows that they are the same, there are all sorts of transitional forms between them, and we can see the process of growth proceeding.

That's how we know evolution is a fact, also. When it became apparent that speciation was a fact, YE creationists retreated to higher taxa as being the only valid form of evolution. But they have no evidence whatever for their new belief that there is some kind of barrier at the level of family or order, or whatever. And genetics clearly shows that all life on earth has a common ancestor.

It clearly takes a lot of credulity (willingness to believe without evidence) for evolutionists to believe that an expanding cloud of hydrogen turned into people over 14 billion years.

Not part of evolutionary theory. See, you've been conditioned to believe that evolutionism is the real thing. And as you now see, it's not.

You have been promoting a lot of evolutionism on this thread.

Nope. What's been upsetting the YE creationists (well some of them) is that I've been showing the differences between evolutionism and evolution as it is.

It's your belief in evolution that you consider to be fact

Directly observed to happen. Remember what evolution actually is: "Change in allele frequency in a population over time."

but it is a theory that cannot be observed

Now you're confusing the theory with the phenomenon it describes. Evolution is an observed phenomenon. Evolutionary theory is the way scientists describe and explain it.
 
Barbarian chuckles:
Just as you refused to provide an exegesis of Gen 1-2 that proves chemical creation. Because you've realized that it's not about science. Do you think no one noticed?

Another diversionary tactic - a red herring.

You're unwilling to do what you asked me to do, because you've now realized that science can't provide an exegesis for anything in scripture. You refused to engage on that request, because it's now clear to you that science can't illuminate scripture any more than scripture can illuminate genetics.

Seems to me that you are telling us - by your silence - that you realize that it wasn't an honest question to begin with.

it's impossible to support evolution by the God created the universe in the beginning.

It's impossible to support chemistry by the God created the universe in the beginning. Do you have a point? By now, you seem to have realized that the question of an exegesis by any scientific theory is foolish. If that's not the case, confess up and provide the exegesis.
 
Apparently the humour was missed by you.
However, 1. unless He filled his tub to overflowing and then after the run over was done, placed a large bucket under his drain hole (If he actually had one) he wouldn't have a clue about what the displaced volume would he.

He merely realized at that moment that the problem had a solution. So it was easy to set up a test. If you thought about it, you could probably guess how he did it.
 
"Evolutionism" is the set of misconceptions that creationists have about evolution....

The Creationist-invented ideology of evolutionism

That's false and I've provided evidence of definitions of 'evolutionism' above. What you have done here is provide us with your misapplied, idiosyncratic definition of evolutionism.

A Google search for evolutionism gives over a million results—with the vast majority of uses coming from evolutionists themselves! A search for evolutionism on Google Books gives over 200,000 results and on Google Scholar (generally limited to the academic and scientific literature) about 25,000 results.

So why is there a seeming reluctance to admit the very existence of such a commonly used word as evolutionism? Most likely it involves the shade of meaning that the suffix -ism adds to the word evolution. When the -ism suffix is added to a word it forms complex nouns that often imply a system of belief or worldview, and this is what many evolutionists refuse to acknowledge about evolution. To put a point on it, evolutionists do not want you to associate belief with evolution (Evolutionism - is there such a word?)​

So creationists didn't invent the term, evolutionism. 'A Google search for evolutionism gives over a million results—with the vast majority of uses coming from evolutionists themselves!'

This is a further demonstration that you are inventing stuff here and I don't appreciate misleading information that you give to promote evolution, which is nowhere found in the Bible.

Ah! Could that be the reason you don't want to show us evolution in Gen 1-2? :wall

Oz
 
Last edited:
Barbarian observes:
Barbarian said:
"Evolutionism" is the set of misconceptions that creationists have about evolution....

The Creationist-invented ideology of evolutionism

That's false

You demonstrated yourself that it's true. You linked us to a creationist site, touting the "evolutionism" that creationists invented, particularly that "monkey-to-man" diagram that is completely at odds with the way evolution actually works. And you insisted that I had to believe in "molecules to man", another creationist misconception about evolution, but part and parcel of creationist-invented "evolutionism."

What you have done here is provide us with your misapplied, idiosyncratic definition of evolutionism. You've been hornswoggled yourself, imagining that evolutionary theory has something to tell us about Genesis. I've shown you repeatedly that nothing in science illuminates Genesis.

Ah! Could that be the reason you don't want to show us chemistry in Gen 1-2? :wall
 
Notice the numerous misconceptions that Cygnus has attached to his now doctrine of "evolutionism." You actually confused one element of it, yourself, linking to a site that presented the "monkey to man", orthogenesis belief as evolutionary theory.



I use it myself. "Evolutionism" is the set of misconceptions that creationists have about evolution. There are numerous examples. Here's a short (but by no means complete) set of differences between the creationist doctrine of "evolutionism" and evolution:

The Creationist-invented ideology of evolutionism is very different from evolution. To help the discussion, here are a few differences:

Evolutionism:
Evolutionism is a random process.
Evolutionism about the origin of life.
Evolutionism says individuals evolve.
Evolutionism says that if there are humans, there shouldn’t be any apes left.
Evolutionism says organisms try to adapt.
Evolutionism has no evidence.
Many scientists doubt evolutionism.
Evolutionism leads to immoral behavior.
Evolutionism says scientists should want humans to have lots of mutations.
Evolutionism is contrary to the Bible

Evolution

Evolution is a non-random process.
Evolution is not about the origin of life.
Populations evolve, not individuals.
Apes and humans have a common ancestor. Humans did not evolve from apes living today.
Adaptation are happen through random mutation and natural selection.
There are many, many different sources of evidence for evolution.
The vast majority of scientists accept evolution.
Evolution does not say anything about morals or ethics.
More mutations will not make evolution go faster. A high rate of mutations is generally harmful.
Evolution is consistent with the Bible.

<<Snip>>
Hmm I think you are confusing yourself a bit here in an effort to maybe confuse others?
In you blue font list of evolution attributes::
Point # 1Evolution is a non-random process.
Then point # 5 Adaptation are happen through random mutation and natural selection.
And since you might be confused about what YE Creationists believe.
YE (Young Earth) Creationists believe the Bible when it tell us that God created everything that He did create.
Evolution and/or evolutionism has no place in the grand scheme of things.
You still have not provided an exegesis of Gen 1-2 showing evolution. Of course you can't because there is no scope whatsoever for evolution in creation.
 
He merely realized at that moment that the problem had a solution. So it was easy to set up a test. If you thought about it, you could probably guess how he did it.
Yes he paid more attention to running his bath.
Of course you might be trying to talk about weighing the kings crown and then dunking it in a bowl of water, but you are not clear on that so.....
back to topic
 
Yes he paid more attention to running his bath.
Of course you might be trying to talk about weighing the kings crown and then dunking it in a bowl of water, but you are not clear on that so.....

It was more interesting than that. Have you figured out how he did it?
 
Hmm I think you are confusing yourself a bit here in an effort to maybe confuse others?
In you blue font list of evolution attributes::
Point # 1Evolution is a non-random process.
Then point # 5 Adaptation are happen through random mutation and natural selection.

Yes. Did you not know that a random process, acted upon by a random process, is a non-random process? Would you like me to show you why that is so?

And since you might be confused about what YE Creationists believe.
YE (Young Earth) Creationists believe the Bible when it tell us that God created everything that He did create.

You'll go that far. But then you disapprove of the way He did it.

Evolution and/or evolutionism has no place in the grand scheme of things.

God disagrees. And He gets to decide. Sorry.

You still have not provided an exegesis of Gen 1-2 showing evolution.

I notice that no one has provided an exegesis of Genesis 1-1 showing chemical bonding.

Of course you can't because there is no scope whatsoever for chemical bonding in Genesis. However, as you now see, God used both chemical bonding and evolution in creating our world. But he didn't tell you that in Genesis.

That's why He gave you intelligence and curiosity. Use it.
 
Barbarian observes:
Barbarian said:
"Evolutionism" is the set of misconceptions that creationists have about evolution....

The Creationist-invented ideology of evolutionism

You demonstrated yourself that it's true. You linked us to a creationist site, touting the "evolutionism" that creationists invented, particularly that "monkey-to-man" diagram that is completely at odds with the way evolution actually works. And you insisted that I had to believe in "molecules to man", another creationist misconception about evolution, but part and parcel of creationist-invented "evolutionism."

What you have done here is provide us with your misapplied, idiosyncratic definition of evolutionism. You've been hornswoggled yourself, imagining that evolutionary theory has something to tell us about Genesis. I've shown you repeatedly that nothing in science illuminates Genesis.

Ah! Could that be the reason you don't want to show us chemistry in Gen 1-2?

The creationist site proved your statement that evolutionism is a creationist-invented ideology is wrong. It's a word that evolutionary scientists use. :dancing
 
I must be in Egypt. I see denial.

:agreed:horse

I think you also are in an exegetical vacuum of Gen 1-2. Christian promoters of evolution duck and weave around the fact that in these 2 chapters, nowhere does God state that he used the mechanism of evolution to create the heavens and the earth - including human beings.

Oz
 
Barbarian observes:
Barbarian said:
"Evolutionism" is the set of misconceptions that creationists have about evolution....

The Creationist-invented ideology of evolutionism



You demonstrated yourself that it's true. You linked us to a creationist site, touting the "evolutionism" that creationists invented, particularly that "monkey-to-man" diagram that is completely at odds with the way evolution actually works. And you insisted that I had to believe in "molecules to man", another creationist misconception about evolution, but part and parcel of creationist-invented "evolutionism."

What you have done here is provide us with your misapplied, idiosyncratic definition of evolutionism. You've been hornswoggled yourself, imagining that evolutionary theory has something to tell us about Genesis. I've shown you repeatedly that nothing in science illuminates Genesis.

Ah! Could that be the reason you don't want to show us chemistry in Gen 1-2? :wall

The Smithsonian, in promoting evolution, disagrees with your view. It states:

Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years (Introduction to human evolution).​

I find it disconcerting that you, in promoting evolution over biblical creation, create a straw man. The monkey-to-man paradigm is exactly what the scientific establishment affirms: 'all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved'.

Oz
 
The creationist site proved your statement that evolutionism is a creationist-invented ideology is wrong. It's a word that evolutionary scientists use.

Sorry, creationists don't get to decide what scientists think. As you see, those stories you were showing us were invented by creationists, not scientists.
 
The Smithsonian, in promoting evolution, disagrees with your view.

Nope. You assumed so, but that's because your doctrine of "evolutionism" makes you assume things about evolution that are not true.

Let's take a look...

Human evolution is the lengthy process of change by which people originated from apelike ancestors. Scientific evidence shows that the physical and behavioral traits shared by all people originated from apelike ancestors and evolved over a period of approximately six million years (Introduction to human evolution).

As you see, it does not confirm your evolutionism belief which proposes this:
article-1324243-0BCB8805000005DC-203_468x286.jpg


In reality, it's talking about this:
400px-Hominidae_chart.svg.png


And this is highly simplified, with a lot of side branches and intermediates not shown. I find it amusing that you, in promoting evolutionism over biblical creation, create a straw man. The straight-line monkey-to-man paradigm is exactly what is wrong with the creationist-invented doctrine of "evolutionism."
 
I think you also are in an exegetical vacuum of Gen 1-2.

I've repeatedly asked you to show us your exegesis of Genesis 1-2 with chemistry and you've repeatedly refused to do it. Is it your opinion that there is no such thing as chemistry? If there is, why can't you show it in Genesis?

Christian promoters of creationism duck and weave around the fact that in these 2 chapters, nowhere does God state that he used the mechanism of chemistry to create the heavens and the earth - including human beings.
 
Christian promoters of creationism duck and weave around the fact that in these 2 chapters, nowhere does God state that he used the mechanism of chemistry to create the heavens and the earth - including human beings.
And that is because He did not! In the beginning,God created the heavens and the Earth. That is it! no need to introduce fairy tales, wistfull thinking.
We are told plain and simple ........."In the beginning..........."
In the beginning there was no 'before', so talking about chemicals combining to make monkey soufflé belongs in the category of bedtime stories.
 
Yes. Did you not know that a random process, acted upon by a random process, is a non-random process? Would you like me to show you why that is so?
Well in the world of mathematics, two negative do tend to make a positive.
We can not apply mathematical principles to imaginary evolution camp fire stories though.
 
And that is because He did not! In the beginning,God created the heavens and the Earth. That is it! no need to introduce fairy tales, wistfull thinking.

But then you do just that:

By now, I hope you realize that even though God created chemistry and evolution, Genesis will tell you nothing about those things. You're looking for things God wasn't talking about, and ignoring what He's actually telling you.

Let God be God.
 
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