Is God a deceptive trickster?

[HisFriend]

I have been wondering why the three person God repeatedly and consistently represented himself as one person to the Jews of the Old Testament.

Wouldn't that be deceptive?

 

[Cern]

Couldn't it be that humans just ain't smart enough to fully understand God?

BB

Mike

 

[HisFriend]

Couldn't it be that humans just ain't smart enough to fully understand God?

BB

Mike

Well if they aren't smart enough to fully understand God, one then has to wonder why people would insist that one must have a right understanding of God?

I suppose if God never gave any indication that God was a three person being that would be another matter and one could say that God had not yet indicated the number of persons that make up God. But it is not the case and this is the problem. He did not do such a thing; He did not refrain from giving any indications of the numerical quantity of his person. On the contrary, he gave myriads of indications that he was one person. If He was really not one person but three all along, he was intentionally misleading people and being coyly deceptive.

 

[Imagican]

I've brought up this point numerous times in different threads and no one seems to want to address it specifically. It seems that if God had taught 'His chosen people' what to look for from the beginning, that they would have been much more receptive to the coming of the Messiah. It seems really unfair that this 'mystery' was withheld from them and they were left COMPLETELY in the dark considering such an important matter.

And then when one takes into conisderation that ALL the apostles were Jews and not a single one of them taught this 'triune' nature, makes it all the more suspect. That it took a couple of hundred years after the death of Christ to 'figure it out' doesn't do much to support it either.

 

[mutzrein]

What do you guys expect of Catholicism? We are heretics and you don't have to tie someone to the stake to make them recant. Just tell them they will never get to heaven unless they believe it.

I tell you it is a powerful thing - fear of eternal damnation. And it certainly is not the gospel whoever preaches it.

 

[Georges]

What do you guys expect of Catholicism? We are heretics and you don't have to tie someone to the stake to make them recant. Just tell them they will never get to heaven unless they believe it.

I tell you it is a powerful thing - fear of eternal damnation. And it certainly is not the gospel whoever preaches it.

I agree with that statement very strongly......the very fear of eternal damnation kept me from accepting what is blatently obvious for a very long time....now that fear is gone....

 

[TruthMiner]

I've brought up this point numerous times in different threads and no one seems to want to address it specifically. It seems that if God had taught 'His chosen people' what to look for from the beginning, that they would have been much more receptive to the coming of the Messiah. It seems really unfair that this 'mystery' was withheld from them and they were left COMPLETELY in the dark considering such an important matter.

But as was pointed out previously, the circumstances are far more severe than God just "withholding." He actively led them to think something else. If he is a triune being that does amount to deception.

And then when one takes into conisderation that ALL the apostles were Jews and not a single one of them taught this 'triune' nature, makes it all the more suspect. That it took a couple of hundred years after the death of Christ to 'figure it out' doesn't do much to support it either.

I think this is the part where a fog rolls into certain minds in order to prevent seeing the reality of the situation. I am personally convinced that many people spend so much time trying to find affirmations for their preferred beliefs that this obsessive focus prevents them from seeing the said belief's very significant problems.

 

[belovedwolfofgod]

Where is the proof that the Apostles didnt teach this?

Next, there are plenty of allusions in the Old Testament. And God is one. So He didnt lie. He just has three parts... or aspects... or whatever you want to call them.

 

[Heidi]

Couldn't it be that humans just ain't smart enough to fully understand God?

BB

Mike

We humans not smart enough to understand God? :o How could you say such a thing? Most of the people on this forum think they are smarter than God! They disagree with Him every chance they get. They make up their own gospels, they disagree with Jesus, and what's more, they're proud of this! Only the devil is proud to disagree with God. ;-)

 

[wavy]

Where is the proof that the Apostles didnt teach this?

Next, there are plenty of allusions in the Old Testament. And God is one. So He didnt lie. He just has three parts... or aspects... or whatever you want to call them.

You can't prove a negative.

Anyway, I believe the doctrine of the trinity is just a crutch the "early church" came up with to rescue the deity of the Messiah.

But the bible doesn't call us to believe in the trinity. I'd like to quote John:


John 20:30
And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book:
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Why try to believe, and worse, impose upon others, something other than what the scriptures want us to believe? (not you, bwog, but many trinitarians)

 

[Heidi]

Do you know what made-up gospel is, belovedwolf? :o

 

[HisFriend]

Where is the proof that the Apostles didnt teach this?

Next, there are plenty of allusions in the Old Testament. And God is one. So He didnt lie. He just has three parts... or aspects... or whatever you want to call them.

So you don't think it was deceiving for God to represent himself as one person?

 

[mutzrein]

Where is the proof that the Apostles didnt teach this?

Next, there are plenty of allusions in the Old Testament. And God is one. So He didnt lie. He just has three parts... or aspects... or whatever you want to call them.

Are you saying that the Apostles in their writings stated that Jesus is God and that belief in this concept is necessary for salvation?

 

[Free]

I have been wondering why the three person God repeatedly and consistently represented himself as one person to the Jews of the Old Testament.

Wouldn't that be deceptive?

I'm certain I could find several things that weren't revealed in the OT but are in the NT, beliefs that you adhere to. Perhaps you can show me in the OT where God says he has a Son. No, God was not being deceptive. He revealed himself the way he revealed himself for his purpose.

Are you saying that the Apostles in their writings stated that Jesus is God and that belief in this concept is necessary for salvation?

I would say that.

 

[mutzrein]

Are you saying that the Apostles in their writings stated that Jesus is God and that belief in this concept is necessary for salvation?

I would say that.

Oh - OK. Can you point to where this is. Thanks

 

[Free]

Oh - OK. Can you point to where this is. Thanks

Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

You're welcome.

 

[mutzrein]

Oh - OK. Can you point to where this is. Thanks

Phi 2:5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
Phi 2:6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
Phi 2:7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
Phi 2:8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

Rom 10:9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.

You're welcome.

Mmmmm - I thought there was going to be more meat to it than that. Neither of those scriptures say that Jesus is God, nor do they say that one has to believe in a such a thing to be born again.

These scriptures have been rolled out by Solo in an effort to persuade all and sundry that they cannot be 'saved' without believing such a thing. Are you also going to tell me that I am not born again? :-?

 

[Free]

What don't you understand? Phil. 2 is clear that Jesus is God and Rom. 10 states that one must confess that "Jesus is Lord".

 

[mutzrein]

What don't you understand? Phil. 2 is clear that Jesus is God and Rom. 10 states that one must confess that "Jesus is Lord".

What don’t I understand? Well, lets look at it for a moment.

Now this does not say that Jesus is God or the same as God. It says, “He thought it not robbery to be equal with God.†Being equal does not equate to being the same thing.

You know there are some fascinating instances in scripture that give us insight into things like this, so let’s take something from scripture because it is right for us to do so now.
It is recorded in scripture that a king or ruler would offer to a certain subject, reward because they pleased them. And what was it they offered? They were offered anything up to half of the kingdom. Now scripture records that the subject was content with far less than half the kingdom but why would a king or ruler offer up to half – and not more? You see by offering up to half they were actually making the subject equal. They would be given authority, and dominion over others of the king’s subjects, in fact, being able to stand in his place. But it did not make them the king. You see, the king exalted that subject higher than any other and the only person that did not come under their authority was the King Himself.

And this is the relationship that God, our heavenly Father, has with His son. Not that he has been given half of God’s kingdom but as one who is under subjection to His Father, Jesus is the one to whom has been given all power and authority above all else. All except Himself of course. Therefore He thought it not robbery to be equal (but not the same as) God. And this is spelled out precisely and without any element of doubt in scripture.

Consider what it says in Corinthians 15.
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


Is Jesus, Lord of all creation? Yes He is. Is He my Lord? Yes He is. Because His Father has exalted Him above every other. As scripture rightly says, ‘Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.’ And this spells out the right perspective on their relationship. Jesus is Lord and His father is God.

Now if you cannot accept this, that’s fine. Continue believing as you will. I am not going to deny you your beliefs, nor the relationship that you have with God.

But two things I ask. Please refrain from taking the so-called mantle of one who sees himself as having the mind of Christ (as someone else on this board has) and judging others to be unfit for the kingdom of God merely on the basis of a doctrine that does not agree with yours.
Secondly, read my posts on this forum, and ask yourself, “is it possible that this man could be born again?†And when you have reached your conclusion ask yourself anothe question. “Where does that leave me in respect of my beliefs?â€Â

 

[Georges]

What don't you understand? Phil. 2 is clear that Jesus is God and Rom. 10 states that one must confess that "Jesus is Lord".

What don’t I understand? Well, lets look at it for a moment.

Now this does not say that Jesus is God or the same as God. It says, “He thought it not robbery to be equal with God.†Being equal does not equate to being the same thing.

As I've stated in numerous posts....The Jewish "Law of Agency" states that the Agent is seen as the Primary....without being the Primary....This fits perfectly with what Jesus claimed as being the "sent one" and this verse equating him with God (as an agent of God is seen as God).

You know there are some fascinating instances in scripture that give us insight into things like this, so let’s take something from scripture because it is right for us to do so now.

Don't forget just about every passage dealing with Jesus' relationship to his heavenly Father.....always subservient...never equal....however to the disciples...he could be construed as being equal through agency.....
It is recorded in scripture that a king or ruler would offer to a certain subject, reward because they pleased them. And what was it they offered? They were offered anything up to half of the kingdom. Now scripture records that the subject was content with far less than half the kingdom but why would a king or ruler offer up to half – and not more? You see by offering up to half they were actually making the subject equal. They would be given authority, and dominion over others of the king’s subjects, in fact, being able to stand in his place. But it did not make them the king. You see, the king exalted that subject higher than any other and the only person that did not come under their authority was the King Himself.

And this is the relationship that God, our heavenly Father, has with His son. Not that he has been given half of God’s kingdom but as one who is under subjection to His Father, Jesus is the one to whom has been given all power and authority above all else. All except Himself of course. Therefore He thought it not robbery to be equal (but not the same as) God. And this is spelled out precisely and without any element of doubt in scripture.

Consider what it says in Corinthians 15.
But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him. Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.


Is Jesus, Lord of all creation? Yes He is. Is He my Lord? Yes He is. Because His Father has exalted Him above every other. As scripture rightly says, ‘Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.’ And this spells out the right perspective on their relationship. Jesus is Lord and His father is God.

Right on the money....

Now if you cannot accept this, that’s fine. Continue believing as you will. I am not going to deny you your beliefs, nor the relationship that you have with God.

That's for everyone to decide....

But two things I ask. Please refrain from taking the so-called mantle of one who sees himself as having the mind of Christ (as someone else on this board has) and judging others to be unfit for the kingdom of God merely on the basis of a doctrine that does not agree with yours.

There's more than two.......

Secondly, read my posts on this forum, and ask yourself, “is it possible that this man could be born again?†And when you have reached your conclusion ask yourself another question. “Where dos that leave me in respect of my beliefs?â€Â

Pretty much right on....