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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join For His Glory for a discussion on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/a-vessel-of-honor.110278/
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Taking the time to pray? Christ is the answer in times of need
https://christianforums.net/threads/psalm-70-1-save-me-o-god-lord-help-me-now.108509/
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How are famous preachers sometimes effected by sin?
Join Sola Scriptura for a discussion on the subject
https://christianforums.net/threads/anointed-preaching-teaching.109331/#post-1912042
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Is God omniscient?
- Thread starter jmt356
- Start date
Although Arminians believe God to be omniscient, the consequences of their doctrine of "libertarian free will" conflicts with this belief. Consider:
The knowledge of God cannot arise from the things themselves [per Libertarian Free Will], for then the knowledge of God would have a cause without him; and knowledge, which is an eminent perfection, would be conferred upon him by his creatures. “for known unto God are all his works, from the beginning of the world" (Acts 15:18). Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes of God
If his knowledge did depend upon the things [per Libertarian Free Will], then the existence of things did precede God's knowledge of them: to say that they are the cause of God's knowledge, is to say that God was not the cause of their being; and if he did create them, it was effected by a blind and ignorant power; he created he knew not what, till he had produced it. Stephen Charnock The Existence and Attributes of God
Job 21:22 “Can anyone teach God knowledge, Seeing that He judges those on high? Libertarian Free Will would answer YES as, according to this belief, God looks into the future (which also contradicts His eternality) to learn what man will do.
Arminian Viewpoint
They, the Arminians who are Freewill Theists, are not willing to concede that God knows all things, at least not in the traditional sense. In some respects the future is knowable, in others it is not. God knows a great deal about what will happen. He knows everything that will ever happen as the direct result of factors that already exist. He knows infallibly the content of his own future actions, to the extent that they are not related to human choices. All that God does not know is the content of future free decisions, and this is because decisions are not there to know until they occur."
For the Arminians, the fundamental belief in man's freedom must be retained at all cost. Omniscience is denied. Most Arminians cannot accept the balance maintained in Scripture, namely, God knows all things and is in control of everything while man is justly responsible for all his actions. They maintain that it must be 'reasonable' and rational. Sanders argues that it must be reasonable at all costs. Mark Hezner
I, on the other hard, believe there is not one atom at any point in time that God has not ordained it purpose and use.
Amphropormorphism (sp?)
daninthelionsden
Member
I believe God can limit Himself whenever He wishes at anytime. Jesus limited Himself numerous times in order to show us how to overcome our own limitations.
Yes that is correct. Anthropomorphism.
And in looking at these verses I have just learned something I never knew before. I always read this as it was the LORD and two angels appearing as men to Abraham. But one commentator pointed out that all three were the LORD. No doubt a reference to the Trinity. With eyes of faith, we always learn of God.
God met Abraham as a man. And His discussions with Abraham were for Abraham's benefit. (Gen. 18:17) God brought up Sodom and Gomorrah. (Gen. 18:20) In (18:20-21) He says the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah had come unto Him. Who made the cry? It was heard by God. Did God already know? Of course He knew. But He was moving as Abraham would understand.
God hears, God is interested, God moves among men. God responds. God already knew He would destroy Sodom and Gomorrah. Abraham needed to know God didn't do it at a whim. You see this in Abraham's intersession for Sodom and Gomorrah. Note that God let Abraham get down to 10 righteous men's sake and for that He would not destroy it. But it is God who stopped there and went His way. (Gen. 18:33) Why, because God was going to destroy it. He didn't want Abraham to go lower in the count. Abraham knows now that there were not even 10 righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah.
You see God's omniscience in (Gen. 18:11-15). God promised Abraham and a Sarah the son they had prayed for. But because of their age Sarah laughed. But, not out loud. Only in her heart. (18:12) Yet God heard it. (18:15) God's omniscience doesn't just extend to the outward movements of man. It goes to the very reasons of why man did this or that. He knows what man does, and why he did it. He knows the heart.
Quantrill
Genesis 18 The Lord appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. 2 Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
OzSpen ... what's your take one this ... that the three men were the Father, Son and Spirit ?
This brings up a second question for you that I've pondered ... regarding the Old Testament theophanies ... seems to me that all the commentaries I read (if memory serves) say the appearance of "THE Angel of the Lord" refer to God the Son. My question is: how do these commentators know it is God the Son and not God the Father or the Holy Spirit ... or all three ???
Personally (which means I don't know what I am talking about and therefore I am speculating), I think because God the Son appears in Christ in human form commentators assume all other theophanies must be God the Son in human form. In other words, they're guessing, but maybe they have relevant information of which I am not aware.
Aside: Maybe a Deut. 29:29 thing
Interesting theory. Never heard that one before.
OzSpen ... what's your take one this ... that the three men were the Father, Son and Spirit ?
This brings up a second question for you that I've pondered ... regarding the Old Testament theophanies ... seems to me that all the commentaries I read (if memory serves) say the appearance of "THE Angel of the Lord" refer to God the Son. My question is: how do these commentators know it is God the Son and not God the Father or the Holy Spirit ... or all three ???
Personally (which means I don't know what I am talking about and therefore I am speculating), I think because God the Son appears in Christ in human form commentators assume all other theophanies must be God the Son in human form. In other words, they're guessing, but maybe they have relevant information of which I am not aware.
Aside: Maybe a Deut. 29:29 thing
I don't believe He did it for His own sake but for Abraham's sake.
FF,
I only have a brief time to tackle this one as I head off to the Dr in 20 mins. Firstly, Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not men. Each is divine with divine attributes. Were they a theophany?
The angel of the Lord appeared at various times in the OT and he is addressed as "Lord," this first appearing in Gen 16:7. Here in Gen 18:1-2 we have the Lord appearing in human form. He is called "the Lord" here and in Gen 12:7; 17:1.
We might ask: Why was he called an angel when he was the Lord? We need to understand that the etymology of angel - its root meaning - is "messenger, one who is sent." So we need to determine if this angel is a manifestation of the Lord, based on context.
I'm comfortable with these "men" being a theophany of the Lord's manifestation.
More after I've seen the Doc.
Oz
God is without boundaries and has unlimited power and authority. He is limitless in all he has ever done, ever will do or ever speak as all of creation is subject to his omnipotence. We can read of God’s creation in Genesis chapter one that he is the creative word as he only had to speak the universe into existence and it was done. Genesis 17:1, 2 he is expressed by his name Almighty God before Abraham who spoke with great authority and power as he told Abraham to walk worthy before him and made his covenant between himself, Abraham and all generations to come in Genesis 12.
God is in control of nations and nature through out history as we can clearly see that his word says do not touch mine anointed in Psalms 105:15 as God’s covenant is to all generations that will walk and be made perfect before him. God has control of all the covenant promises he has made with his people and that no one can interfere with what God has given them. A good example of this is when God gave Israel the land of Canaan that was rich with milk and honey that they should never depart from that land. Many have tried to come against Gods Promised Land and God will always put the enemy in our hands with his unlimited power and authority, which is also given to us through grace to stand against the enemy.
God’s omnipotence is expressed through his son Christ Jesus whom gave his life as a ransom so we could have eternal life with the Father, John 3:16; Romans 10:9, 10. God’s infinite power is shown through the Holy Spirit that guides us, comforts us, protects us and teaches us all things of Gods word, John 14:26.
Through doubt, which is lack of faith, we at times limit God and place boundaries around him that shuts off his power and authority in our lives especially when we face trials and tribulations we allow ourselves to get caught up in and see no way out, which opens the door for Satan to bring fear into our thoughts. James 1:17 says every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from God whom is no variableness, but we try to change what God is even when he is unchangeable and we can not fathom with our carnal mind how God can change every situation in our life.
God only wants the best for us and will always give us his best in his timing. When we wait on Gods timing then his perfection is fulfilled in us which brings glory and honor to his name. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Teach us Lord of your omnipotence that we may walk before you in all your fullness.
God’s omnipotence is expressed through his son Christ Jesus whom gave his life as a ransom so we could have eternal life with the Father, John 3:16; Romans 10:9, 10. God’s infinite power is shown through the Holy Spirit that guides us, comforts us, protects us and teaches us all things of Gods word, John 14:26.
Through doubt, which is lack of faith, we at times limit God and place boundaries around him that shuts off his power and authority in our lives especially when we face trials and tribulations we allow ourselves to get caught up in and see no way out, which opens the door for Satan to bring fear into our thoughts. James 1:17 says every good gift and every perfect gift is from above and comes down from God whom is no variableness, but we try to change what God is even when he is unchangeable and we can not fathom with our carnal mind how God can change every situation in our life.
God only wants the best for us and will always give us his best in his timing. When we wait on Gods timing then his perfection is fulfilled in us which brings glory and honor to his name. Isaiah 40:31 But they that wait upon the LORD shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint. Teach us Lord of your omnipotence that we may walk before you in all your fullness.
daninthelionsden
Member
Reminds me of Jeremiah 29:11 "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the Lord, "plans to prosper you and not harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
jmt356
Member
God appeared to Abraham as three men who promised that Abraham would have a son in his old age (Gen 18:1-6). God stated that He would go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to ascertain whether what their inhabitants had done was as great as the outcry that had reached Him:
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
Gen 18:21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
If God were omniscient, He would not have had to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah or send two angels to Sodom and Gomorrah to ascertain whether their sin was as bad as the outcry that reached Him. He would have already known it.
OzSpen’s post #10 addresses this question by suggesting that it was not the Lord that appeared to Abraham and went down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if their sin was as great as the outcry; rather, it was an angel or angels of the Lord that went down. OzSpen writes, “The angel of the Lord appeared at various times in the OT and he is addressed as ‘Lord.’” Therefore, because the men were angels, and not God, they were not omniscient and therefore, had to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see for themselves whether the sin was as great as the outcry.
I do not find this convincing. Genesis 18 repeatedly refers to the three visitors as the “LORD.” Genesis 19:1 refers to two of the men as “angels.” Both the NIV and NKJV (all caps). The original Hebrew uses יְהֹוָה (H3068), which translates as Jehovah / "the existing One.” Therefore, we should conclude that it was in fact the Lord that appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18, though He may have been accompanied by 2 angels.
WIP stated, “I don't believe He did it for His own sake but for Abraham's sake.” I don’t believe this addresses my question. According to Genesis 18, God stated that He would go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see whether their sin was as bad as the outcry. The purpose of going down was not for Abraham’s benefit; it was to determine the extent of Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin. This leaves me with the question: If God is omniscient, why did He (or His angels) need to go down to see the extent of the sin? Wouldn’t God have known without going?
Gen 18:20 Then the LORD said, "The outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is so great and their sin so grievous
Gen 18:21 that I will go down and see if what they have done is as bad as the outcry that has reached me. If not, I will know."
If God were omniscient, He would not have had to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah or send two angels to Sodom and Gomorrah to ascertain whether their sin was as bad as the outcry that reached Him. He would have already known it.
OzSpen’s post #10 addresses this question by suggesting that it was not the Lord that appeared to Abraham and went down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see if their sin was as great as the outcry; rather, it was an angel or angels of the Lord that went down. OzSpen writes, “The angel of the Lord appeared at various times in the OT and he is addressed as ‘Lord.’” Therefore, because the men were angels, and not God, they were not omniscient and therefore, had to go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see for themselves whether the sin was as great as the outcry.
I do not find this convincing. Genesis 18 repeatedly refers to the three visitors as the “LORD.” Genesis 19:1 refers to two of the men as “angels.” Both the NIV and NKJV (all caps). The original Hebrew uses יְהֹוָה (H3068), which translates as Jehovah / "the existing One.” Therefore, we should conclude that it was in fact the Lord that appeared to Abraham in Genesis 18, though He may have been accompanied by 2 angels.
WIP stated, “I don't believe He did it for His own sake but for Abraham's sake.” I don’t believe this addresses my question. According to Genesis 18, God stated that He would go down to Sodom and Gomorrah to see whether their sin was as bad as the outcry. The purpose of going down was not for Abraham’s benefit; it was to determine the extent of Sodom and Gomorrah’s sin. This leaves me with the question: If God is omniscient, why did He (or His angels) need to go down to see the extent of the sin? Wouldn’t God have known without going?
Gen 18:1 And the LORD appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;
Gen 18:2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,
Gen 18:3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:
Gen 19:1 And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;
Gen 19:2 And he said, Behold now, my lords, turn in, I pray you, into your servant's house, and tarry all night, and wash your feet, and ye shall rise up early, and go on your ways. And they said, Nay; but we will abide in the street all night.
The Lord appeared to Abraham through three angels in human form. Nowhere does it say that God literally came down to Abraham, as no one can see God and live, Exodus 33:20. These were three angels/messengers of God sent to Abraham as angels can be incarnate in human form at times for the purpose of God ministering to others, Genesis 18:1-8. This was the same with Lot in Sodom and Gomorrah when two angels appeared to him as they looked like men to Lot and he even called them my lords, Genesis 19:11-2, as they serve as messengers to communicate God's will to men. They helped reveal the law to Moses (Acts 7:52-53), and served as the carriers of much of the material in Daniel, and Revelation.
jmt356
Member
Genesis 18 states that the "Lord" (יְהֹוָה / Jehovah) spoke with Abraham. We should not interpret "Jehovah" to mean an angel.
Exodus 33:20 should be interpreted to mean not that no one can see God, but that no one can see God in all of his glory. There are many instances in which God appeared
- He appeared to Moses as an angel through a burning bush (Exo 3:2);
- He appeared to Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy elders (Exo 24:9-10);
- He appeared to Jacob as a “man” who wrestled him (Gen 32:24-30);
- He appeared to Abraham as “three men” (Gen 18:1-6);
- He appeared to King Nebuchadnezzar as “the Son of God” in the fiery furnace (Dan 3:23-28).
If we interpret Exodus 33:20 to mean that God cannot make Himself seen, then it would contradict all of these other passages. Rather, Exodus 33:20 means that God cannot be seen in His full glory. If God were to totally reveal Himself to sinful humans, they would be consumed. Therefore, God transforms and appears in ways that can be seen, but that are not manifestations of God in his full glory. We can “see” him, but not with all of His glory and holiness exhibited. Moreover, God, as an omnipresent being, cannot be fully perceived with human eyes. Only portions of God that He chooses to manifest may be seen by man.
I believe one of the three men that Abraham spoke with in Genesis 18 was God.
Exodus 33:20 should be interpreted to mean not that no one can see God, but that no one can see God in all of his glory. There are many instances in which God appeared
- He appeared to Moses as an angel through a burning bush (Exo 3:2);
- He appeared to Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu and seventy elders (Exo 24:9-10);
- He appeared to Jacob as a “man” who wrestled him (Gen 32:24-30);
- He appeared to Abraham as “three men” (Gen 18:1-6);
- He appeared to King Nebuchadnezzar as “the Son of God” in the fiery furnace (Dan 3:23-28).
If we interpret Exodus 33:20 to mean that God cannot make Himself seen, then it would contradict all of these other passages. Rather, Exodus 33:20 means that God cannot be seen in His full glory. If God were to totally reveal Himself to sinful humans, they would be consumed. Therefore, God transforms and appears in ways that can be seen, but that are not manifestations of God in his full glory. We can “see” him, but not with all of His glory and holiness exhibited. Moreover, God, as an omnipresent being, cannot be fully perceived with human eyes. Only portions of God that He chooses to manifest may be seen by man.
I believe one of the three men that Abraham spoke with in Genesis 18 was God.
Where have you ever seen God or Jesus after He ascended up to heaven come down to earth transforming them self into a man?
jmt356
Member
I am unaware of instances in which Jesus, after He ascended into heaven, came down to earth and transformed Himself into a man. However, there are instances in which God (or Jesus) appeared as men (I am not sure whether “transform” is the right term here) before Jesus ascended into heaven. Examples include:
MELCHIZEDEK
Melchizedek appeared to Abraham in Genesis 14. The name “Melchizedek” means “king of righteousness” (Heb 7:2). We know that “[n]o one is good except God alone” (Mar 10:8). This indicates that Melchizedek was God. Melchizedek has “neither beginning nor end of life” (Heb 7:3), “remains a priest forever” (Heb 7:3) and is “said to be living” (Heb 7:8). If Melchizedek had neither beginning nor end of life, then he must be: (i) uncreated; and (ii) immortal. That Melchizedek “remains a priest forever” (Heb 7:3) and is said to be “living” (Heb 7:8) also points to his immortality. God “alone has immortality” (1Ti 6:16). Therefore, Melchizedek should be understood to be God and the appearance of Melchizedek to Abraham should be understood as an appearance of God as a man.
THREE MEN WHO APPEARED TO ABRAHAM
The “Lord” appeared to Abraham as three men and promised Abraham would have a son (Gen 18:1-6). For the reasons I stated earlier, I believe one of these three men was God.
A MAN WHO WRESTLED WITH JACOB
Jacob wrestled with a “Man” that I believe was God (and possibly Jesus). Genesis 32:24 refers to the person as a “Man,” but the context implies that it is no ordinary man with whom Jacob wrestled. The person had supernatural qualities. When he saw that he could not overpower Jacob, he wrenched Jacob’s hip simply by touching the socket (Gen 32:25). The fact that Jacob, in Genesis 32:30, states, “I have seen God face to face” is further indication that the Man he wrestled with was God.
A MAN THAT APPEARED IN THE FIERY FURNACE
It appears that God appeared to King Nebuchadnezzar as a man. After King Nebuchadnezzar cast Shadrach, Meschach and Abed-Nego into the fiery furnace, he witnessed a fourth man with them and “the form of the fourth is like the Son of God” (Dan3:25). It appears that this fourth man was Jesus.
jmt356
Member
I don’t sense anyone has addressed my underlying question as to why God went down to Sodom and Gomorrah to ascertain whether their sin was as great as the outcry suggested if he was omniscient. In addition, there are other scriptures where God asks questions. If God were omniscient, why did He ask these questions?
For example, in Num 22:9-11, God asked Balaam who the Moabite officials that were with Balaam were:
Num 22:9 God came to Balaam and asked, "Who are these men with you?"
Num 22:10 Balaam said to God, "Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, sent me this message:
Num 22:11 'A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.'"
God also asked Satan where he came from and whether he had considered his servant Job:
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."
For example, in Num 22:9-11, God asked Balaam who the Moabite officials that were with Balaam were:
Num 22:9 God came to Balaam and asked, "Who are these men with you?"
Num 22:10 Balaam said to God, "Balak son of Zippor, king of Moab, sent me this message:
Num 22:11 'A people that has come out of Egypt covers the face of the land. Now come and put a curse on them for me. Perhaps then I will be able to fight them and drive them away.'"
God also asked Satan where he came from and whether he had considered his servant Job:
Job 1:7 The LORD said to Satan, "Where have you come from?" Satan answered the LORD, "From roaming throughout the earth, going back and forth on it."
Gen 14:18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
Melchizedek was a king of God's righteousness found in him, but he was not God.
You need to read the full context in Hebrews 7 as Melchizedek is being compared to Jesus.
Genesis 18:1-6 The lord appeared to him by sending him three angels who are the messengers of God who speak what God gives them to speak. Same with all those other scriptures you posted as you need to read the full context and learn how God works and speaks through his angels in only He can transform them into looking like a man for the purpose of His ministry.
No one can or ever did see God face to face as God does not have a physical body as He is Spirit without form and the glory of His countenance is to brilliant for anyone to look upon and live. That is why He put Moses in the cleft of the rock as He passed by him in Exodus 33:22.
I explained all of this in post #14, but you are not seeing the full context if you are only using one or a few verses without the full.
Nothing is "hidden" from the Lord. God did know as the judgment had already been made and was carried out. The angels may not have known nor Abraham. For their sake God let them see/know the extent of the evil perhaps to bring them some comfort as they were destroying people as God had commanded.