Is Hell Permanent or Temporary?

[Mike]

I can't believe I'm even asking the question, but it came up in another thread intended to be a prayer need. I didn't feel it would be appropriate to discuss this differing theology in a thread in which someone new to the faith was asking for advice. We both agreed to take this discussion elsewhere.

This is not to publicly flog her for her belief. It's just the first time I have ever heard anyone in new ageism or otherwise imply that Hell was a temporary state. It's almost like saying it's some sort of purgatory, making Hell unnecessary or unreal. Even if you have a belief that there is no actual "Hell", but a separation from God's presence, I've never heard it said that it a soul could go from that state to then be with the Father in paradise.

Mamre has used the scripture pointing to Jesus descending into Hell and rising as support for her belief that Hell is a temporary circumstance for people and Heaven is possible to reach after spending a given amount of time there. She wrote:

"I think we all picture the idea of hell as a permanent, and final place. However, I have read a couple of passages in the scriptures that shows clearly that hell is a sort of a temporary place or state.
Talking about the Savior's three days before His resurrection, Paul says:
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Acts 2: 27, 31
While the Lord Jesus was a perfect man with no sin, still He did spend a period in hell as the scriptures say that His soul would not be left there. Not being left there implies He was there. Now, since He was without sin, it seems then that He was there for a different reason."

To rebut your stated belief, I would point to a few passages. From Matthew 25:
"44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

From Mark 9:43
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

From Revelation 14:
"11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

I'd like to know if anyone has a similar belief. Mamre, I'd be interested to know where you heard this, if you haven't arrived at this conclusion on your own. I look forward to this discussion. Thanks!

mjjcb

 

[Free]

"I think we all picture the idea of hell as a permanent, and final place. However, I have read a couple of passages in the scriptures that shows clearly that hell is a sort of a temporary place or state.
Talking about the Savior's three days before His resurrection, Paul says:
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Acts 2: 27, 31
While the Lord Jesus was a perfect man with no sin, still He did spend a period in hell as the scriptures say that His soul would not be left there. Not being left there implies He was there. Now, since He was without sin, it seems then that He was there for a different reason."

It's important to note that this verse applies to the Messiah alone and is in no way indicative of what will happen to all who are in hell or who go to hell. It was temporary for Christ alone, for specific reasons, and we cannot get any more than that from that passage.

 

[glorydaz]

It's important to understand that every time hell is used in the Bible it is not always talking about the same thing. You need to check Young's or some other translation to see when hell is translated something different. For instance when Jesus descended into "hades" ...that is the place of waiting where the OT saints awaited the resurrection of Jesus. There were two sides to Hades...one for the righteous in Abraham's bosom, and one for the ungodly...prior to judgment. You can see a picture of it in Luke 16. Some will call that a parable, but it isn't, for we see Hades is thrown into the lake of fire with death in Revelation.

 

[Mike]

Yes. The OP shared a concern that God is sentencing people to Hell. My point was that we are sentencing ourselves by not accepting the Gospel, and we shouldn't look at God as the One who is deciding to send us there. I was concerned when she deflected this point of mine when responding to his concern and then going on to argue the finality of a separation from God for eternity. It took a thread intended to address the OP's concern and sidetracked it.

Mamre, this is not a personal attack on you. I hope you understand that. You brought up a few points worth discussing in a different forum. When you agreed, I posted this thread here. There is too little of your work here on the boards to determine where you are coming from. I have no reason to believe you aren't grounded in your faith.

Our denial of the Gospel does result in a permanent separation from God if we do not reconcile it by the time we die. That much is grounded in scripture.

 

[happyjoy]

Yes. The OP shared a concern that God is sentencing people to Hell. My point was that we are sentencing ourselves by not accepting the Gospel, and we shouldn't look at God as the One who is deciding to send us there. I was concerned when she deflected this point of mine when responding to his concern and then going on to argue the finality of a separation from God for eternity. It took a thread intended to address the OP's concern and sidetracked it.

Our denial of the Gospel does result in a permanent separation from God if we do not reconcile it by the time we die. That much is grounded in scripture.

I see the point you are making when you say we are sentencing ourselves, but in the end I think your argument fails. By your rationale one could say that everyone incarcerated really sentenced themselves, but we know in reality they did not. The were sentenced by a judge. God is the judge. The bible calls it judgment. One sits in judgment before God. So indeed God judges you and sentences you.

Perhaps you feel in your heart that indeed the idea of eternal damnation is not something God would do. Perhaps you should reexamine your idea of whether hell is eternal, rather than try deny God is judge and sentencer.

 

[Bick]

I can't believe I'm even asking the question, but it came up in another thread intended to be a prayer need. I didn't feel it would be appropriate to discuss this differing theology in a thread in which someone new to the faith was asking for advice. We both agreed to take this discussion elsewhere.

This is not to publicly flog her for her belief. It's just the first time I have ever heard anyone in new ageism or otherwise imply that Hell was a temporary state. It's almost like saying it's some sort of purgatory, making Hell unnecessary or unreal. Even if you have a belief that there is no actual "Hell", but a separation from God's presence, I've never heard it said that it a soul could go from that state to then be with the Father in paradise.

Mamre has used the scripture pointing to Jesus descending into Hell and rising as support for her belief that Hell is a temporary circumstance for people and Heaven is possible to reach after spending a given amount of time there. She wrote:

"I think we all picture the idea of hell as a permanent, and final place. However, I have read a couple of passages in the scriptures that shows clearly that hell is a sort of a temporary place or state.
Talking about the Savior's three days before His resurrection, Paul says:
"Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption."
Acts 2: 27, 31
While the Lord Jesus was a perfect man with no sin, still He did spend a period in hell as the scriptures say that His soul would not be left there. Not being left there implies He was there. Now, since He was without sin, it seems then that He was there for a different reason."

MY COMMENTS: I MAY BE CRITISIZED, BUT I BELIEVE THAT THE POPULAR DOCTRINE OF MAN HAVING AN ETERNAL SOUL WHICH, FOR THE WICKED, CAN BE ETERNALLY PUNISHED IN A BURNING HELL, IS A TRAVESTY ON GOD'S CHARACTER. IS HIS LOVE INFINITE OR ISN'T IT? IS HIS GRACE GREATER THAN ALL OUR SIN, OR ISN'T IT?

IS NOT CHRIST THE LAMB OF GOD WHO HAS TAKEN AWAY THE SINS OF THE WORLD (JN. 1:29)?

DO WE NOT READ IN 2 COR. 5:19, THAT 'GOD WAS IN CHRIST RECONCILING THE WORLD TO HIMSELF, NOT IMPUTING THEIR TRESPASSES TO THEM...' ?

IS THERE SIN IN THE WORLD NOW? YES! BUT GOD'S PLAN IS THAT THE ABOVE VERSE WILL BE COMPLETED AT THE END OF THE AGES, THE EPOCHS OF TIME.

WILL THERE BE JUDGMENTS WHEN GOD THROUGH CHRIST WILL REPAY VENGEANCE FOR VENGEANCE?
YES INDEED! MANY SCRIPTURES TELLS US THAT ALL MUST GIVE ACCOUNT OF THEIR DEEDS, EVEN WE IN THE CHURCH/BODY OF CHRIST. THIS WILL BE IN THE HEAVENLIES AT THE JUDGMENT SEAT (BEMA--GK) OF CHRIST, WHERE REWARDS (OR LOSS) FOR SERVICE WILL BE AWARDED.

BY USING A CONCORDANCE, SUCH AS YOUNG'S, YOU WILL FIND THAT ALL ELEVEN PLACES THAT JESUS WARNED HIS DISCIPLES AND THE MULTITUDES, WAS ABOUT THE JUDGMENT OF GEHENNA (HELL IN AV)FIRE. IF THE COUNCIL (SANDREHEN) JUDGED A LAW-BREAKER AS DESERVING THIS JUDGMENT, HE WOULD BE STONED TO DEATH AND HIS BODY THROWN INTO GEHENNA, WHICH WAS THE CITY DUMP OUTSIDE JERUSALEM WHERE THE OFAL AND RUBBISH WERE DUMPED; IT WAS KEPT BURNING CONTINUALLY (AS LONG AS THERE WAS ANYTHING TO BURN). THE CRIMINAL WOULD NOT GET A NORMAL BURIAL, BUT HIS BODY WOULD BE CAST IN GEHENNA AND WHAT WASN'T BURNED UP, THE MAGGOTS WOULD EAT.

To rebut your stated belief, I would point to a few passages. From Matthew 25:
"44"They also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?' 45"He will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.' 46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

THE ABOVE VERSES ARE REFERRING TO THE TIME WHEN CHRIST HAS RETURNED TO THE EARTH IN POWER AND GREAT GLORY, DEFEATED HIS ENEMIES AND RESCUED HIS PEOPLE, ISRAEL.
THESE BEING JUGED ARE ALL THE NATIONS WHO HAVE SURVIVED THE TERRIBLE PLAGUES AND WOES OF THE TRIBULATION, ARE ARE LIKEND TO 'SHEEP' OR 'GOATS'.
THE WORD RENDERED 'ETERNAL' IS THE GREEK WORD 'AIONION', AN ADJECTIVE, MEANING 'OF OR PERTAINING TO THE AGES (EONS)'.
FOR THE 'SHEEP' NATIONS (PEOPLES) LIFE FOR THE MILLENNIAL AGE WILL BE GRANTED.
FOR THE 'GOAT' NATIONS, THEY ARE CONDEMNED TO DEATH IN THE FIRE (LAKE OF FIRE PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS) FOR THE NEXT AGE (EON), THE MILLENNIUM. THEN, THEY WILL BE RESURRECTED TO BE JUDGED FOR ALL THEIR DEEDS BEFORE THE GREAT WHITE THRONE (REV. 20:11-14). BICK.

From Mark 9:43
"It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out."

From Revelation 14:
"11And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name."

I'd like to know if anyone has a similar belief. Mamre, I'd be interested to know where you heard this, if you haven't arrived at this conclusion on your own. I look forward to this discussion. Thanks!

mjjcb

 

[mamre]

I can't believe I'm even asking the question, but it came up in another thread intended to be a prayer need. I didn't feel it would be appropriate to discuss this differing theology in a thread in which someone new to the faith was asking for advice. We both agreed to take this discussion elsewhere.

This is not to publicly flog her for her belief. It's just the first time I have ever heard anyone in new ageism or otherwise imply that Hell was a temporary state. It's almost like saying it's some sort of purgatory, making Hell unnecessary or unreal. Even if you have a belief that there is no actual "Hell", but a separation from God's presence, I've never heard it said that it a soul could go from that state to then be with the Father in paradise.
mjjcb

Hi mjjcb,

What do you mean by new ageism? And flog her belief? With all due respect, when someone make such statements without knowing, he/she creates a bias in the discussion from the get go. Also, Mamre is the name of the man that sold a piece of land to Abraham, so it could be a place for Sarah's burial and later his and Jacob's. I adopted that name because I like the example of righteousness that Abraham left to us.

I have reasoned totally based on the Bible as anyone can see below.

As I studied the Bible I pondered these passages and concepts without having any anyone feeding me any doctrine, and as I have prayed about this, I asked the Father directly in the name of Christ, and I have learned that directly from Him.
Also, I am not simply implying this, anyone can read the scriptures and ponder and pray to the Father in the name of Christ. He/she will arrive at the same conclusion if he/she is sincere in the search.

Here is the point: if Christ went to hell and preached to people there (see 1 Pet. 3: 19), then it is clear that those that accepted his message there would leave hell, and that makes hell temporary.

It is not a purgatory because the Catholic concept of purgatory is that some people with minor sins may purge their sins in a place called purgatory. The purgatory doctrine is not in the Bible.
However, it is clear that you cannot leave that place (hell) unless you accept the message of the gospel and want to follow Christ. Otherwise, you'll stay there (not purge) until the the second resurrection and Final Judgment when God will recompense you for your deeds on earth (again, no purge).

Such a place is necessary because when someone dies he/she doesn't necessarily resurrect immediately, specially if that person was bad. If the person is bad, he/she will have to wait somewhere until the second resurrection as stated in Revelations (see Rev. 20) when hell and death will give up all their dead. Revelation also says that hell and death will be cast into the lake of fire. As you can see hell like death is temporary

Also, the scriptures you cite don't show hell as a permanent place or state, they only talk about a final judgment and punishment. But, again, Rev. 20 states that hell and death will give up their dead for resurrection so the final judgment can take place.

Here is my post from the other area. I am just posting here what I have posted in the other area so everyone can check the scriptures and reason by themselves.

No doubt God offers Life and it is up to us to accept it.
As for "sentencer:" Lets remember that God is the Judge and He can judge and sentence. However, the word sentencer was not brought up by me and that is not what I stress in my post. I tried to stress that God will recompense each with a just reward in the Final judgment. What I have learned is that God is a loving, merciful, and a just Father that will give what we deserve. Some will deserve Eternal Life with Him, but many, if not most, will receive various other lesser recompenses commensurate to their deeds. But, make no mistake, He is the Judge, and He will preside over the final judgment.

Take a look at what the Bible says:
According to John, in Revelations, after Hell and death give up their dead, hell and death will be thrown into the lake of fire (figuratively, apparently). So if hell will give up its dead, then it shows it is only temporary.

The Bible says that Jesus, after His death and before His resurrection, was in hell. The scriptures that says that God would not leave the soul of His Righteous in hell attest to that and show that hell is a place or state that is temporary.

Also Peter says that the Savior went and "...preached unto the spirits in prison;" 1 Pet. 3: 19 A careful analysis of this text shows that prison is hell as this people had been rebellious not doing good when they where living upon this earth, thus they were waiting in an awful state of anguish (which is hell). Therefore, if Christ preached to them in hell then, it stands to reason that some that accepted the message could leave hell, which makes hell a temporary or intermediary place or state.

So, your point that God doesn't sentence people to hell is in line with the above scriptures. If you look at Peter's statement that the Savior preached in hell to the spirits in prison, then we see that God really didn't sentence them to go there, they went because they were rebellious and their acts put them in that prison. Therefore, God doesn't sentence people to go to hell because hell is a temporary place or state of anguish and awful expectation. Clearly, that is not the Final Judgment, as Christ still preached to people in hell.

Have a great day,
mamre

 

[Mike]

What do you mean by new ageism? And flog her belief? With all due respect, when someone make such statements without knowing, he/she creates a bias in the discussion from the get go. Also, Mamre is the name of the man that sold a piece of land to Abraham, so it could be a place for Sarah's burial and later his and Jacob's. I adopted that name because I like the example of righteousness that Abraham left to us.

mamre, (thanks for the reference) I tried to reset our discussion, and I'm sorry if my wording upset you. I'm even more sorry if the paragraph above was misinterpreted. mamre, I honestly wanted to make it clear that I wasn't attacking you in a mean spirited way. This wasn't personal. I was trying to understand how you arrived at this, and you delivered. I said I wasn't trying to "flog your belief", because I wasn't.

You are clearly very knowledgeable of the Bible and an honest Christian. I truly mean no disrespect. Your response could well launch a busy discussion on this more appropriate board. Others might chime in, and I will too at more length when I can. Others have already done so.

When someone poses a worry or concern about who sends us to Hell, we should be helping that person, not muddying the waters by taking others to task on doctrine. You had some interesting points, that I wanted to pose in a different place.

You say Hell is not eternal. I say it is. Look at the first few points in this thread that devaluate the example of Jesus' descension and then ascension. I will add more and will consider what you've stated and more that you'd like to share.

I'm sorry if I offended you. In good Christian love, please let us approach this question with renewed vigor and mutual respect.

Is Hell eternal banishment from the presence of God? That's the question.

 

[Mysteryman]

First off, the word "hell" should not even be in our bibles.

It is the second death, or lake of fire

If the second death is not eternal, then our life with God would not be eternal. The words eternal or for ever would have no meaning or substance to them.

There is nothing temporary about the second death < It is eternal

 

[MMarc]

Either or I don't want to find out!

 

[Mike]

Either or I don't want to find out!

But if you're seeking the Truth, I believe it's important to find it and embrace it rather than just say "either". The two sides are mutually exclusive. If separation from God is not eternal, some might not see the same urgency in making sure they don't go there since they might be up for parole at some point.

No, their decision to reject the Gospel is permanent once their days here are over.

 

[happyjoy]

Either or I don't want to find out!

But if you're seeking the Truth, I believe it's important to find it and embrace it rather than just say "either". The two sides are mutually exclusive. If separation from God is not eternal, some might not see the same urgency in making sure they don't go there since they might be up for parole at some point.

No, their decision to reject the Gospel is permanent once their days here are over.

I think it comes down to how one wants to view God. Is God Benevolent or Malevolent? The God of an eternal suffering is Malevolent. The God of forgiveness is Benevolent.

To think of it another way. Eternal torture is cruel and unusual punishment, and not something Jesus is involved with.

 

[Mike]

I think it comes down to how one wants to view God. Is God Benevolent or Malevolent? The God of an eternal suffering is Malevolent. The God of forgiveness is Benevolent.

To think of it another way. Eternal torture is cruel and unusual punishment, and not something Jesus is involved with.

No, happyjoy, it doesn't come down to what any one person "wants". Whether the punishment is eternal or temporary, is what it is and has nothing to do with what we want it to be. I believe from past exchanges between us, you reject a lot of Christian doctrine based on "I think it comes down to..." One thing IS True, and we each don't decide it on our own.

You're derailing the topic at hand here, but I'll just say as I have before, God does not "malevolently" send people to hell. We make that decision on our own by refusing to accept His invitation and Jesus' sacrifice for our sins. Jesus, by the way was very clear about this result.

Back to the conversation at hand. I'll respond to mamre, but I'm curious what others think about whether this separation is eternal or temporary.

 

[mamre]

First off, the word "hell" should not even be in our bibles.

It is the second death, or lake of fire

If the second death is not eternal, then our life with God would not be eternal. The words eternal or for ever would have no meaning or substance to them.

There is nothing temporary about the second death < It is eternal

Misteryman,

This is not any personal attack on your thinking. I am merely showing some dangers in that line of thinking. Saying that the word hell should not be in the bible amounts to changing what God has said. If we hold the bible to be the word of God for us then none of us have the authority to change it. As if we change, then it would be the same as picking what we like and discarding what we dislike about what God is commanding us to do. Hopefully that is not what you are implying. Surely you know that the Lord has warned everyone to not take or add anything to His word.

If we search the scriptures diligently we will start to understand it. Read Revelations 20, it says that the Sea, Hell and Death will deliver their dead to be resurrected and stand judgment. After judgment everyone will receive their just recompense.
Now, you seem to be mixing things up. Hell and the second death are not the same according to Revelations 20. Verse 14 states "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." But, before they were cast, they delivered their dead, see Rev. 20:13

Hell is not the second death according to the bible (Again, read Revelations 20, you will see). And if the scripture doesn't agree with your interpretation, it doesn't help to eliminate the word "hell" from the bible. If you do that, then you eliminate a whole chunk of doctrine from the bible because the Savior was in hell (not in the lake of fire) for a period and came out to be resurrected.

The Savior going to hell and coming out to be resurrected is a type of things to come. It will happen to all that are in hell. Read Rev. 20:12, great and small to stand before the throne of God to be judged. Where they come from? They come from hell to be resurrected in order to stand judgment.

Now Jesus resurrected for Eternal Glory, because he was in hell to preach to the spirits in prison, not because of His deeds. Those that are in hell will resurrect to eternal damnation because they are their for their evil deeds, it seems.

After the judgment then, all recompenses are final and punishment and reward are eternal and forever, not before the judgment. And the judgment, according to the scriptures, come only after hell and death give up their dead. You are definitely right, there is nothing temporary about the second death. But the second death is not hell and it doesn't come before hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Actually, if you read the scriptures closely and diligently you'll see that the existence of hell attest once more to the great mercy and justice of God the Father. Think about it. There are many in hell that ended up there for their evil deeds, but that never heard of Jesus (this is why Jesus went to hell to preach to them, see 1 Pet. 3: 19). If they are to be judged justly and fairly, they need to hear the Gospel to accept or reject it. It would not be a just God that judges you according to a law you never heard of.

We all need to search the scriptures more diligently and not just say what we think it says. See what Jesus says: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:" John 5: 39.

Have a great day,

mamre

 

[Free]

Either or I don't want to find out!

But if you're seeking the Truth, I believe it's important to find it and embrace it rather than just say "either". The two sides are mutually exclusive. If separation from God is not eternal, some might not see the same urgency in making sure they don't go there since they might be up for parole at some point.

No, their decision to reject the Gospel is permanent once their days here are over.

I think it comes down to how one wants to view God. Is God Benevolent or Malevolent? The God of an eternal suffering is Malevolent. The God of forgiveness is Benevolent.

To think of it another way. Eternal torture is cruel and unusual punishment, and not something Jesus is involved with.

Two points need to be made:

1. You have incorrectly assumed that there will some form of painful torture that will last for eternity. I do not believe this to be the biblical position; it is taught by many though, which is unfortunate.

2. You have also incorrectly made God's love and justice out to be mutually exclusive, which is not the case.

If we search the scriptures diligently we will start to understand it. Read Revelations 20, it says that the Sea, Hell and Death will deliver their dead to be resurrected and stand judgment. After judgment everyone will receive their just recompense.
Now, you seem to be mixing things up. Hell and the second death are not the same according to Revelations 20. Verse 14 states "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." But, before they were cast, they delivered their dead, see Rev. 20:13

Hell is not the second death according to the bible (Again, read Revelations 20, you will see). And if the scripture doesn't agree with your interpretation, it doesn't help to eliminate the word "hell" from the bible. If you do that, then you eliminate a whole chunk of doctrine from the bible because the Savior was in hell (not in the lake of fire) for a period and came out to be resurrected.

Like Mysterman, I agree that the Second Death, the Lake of Fire, is hell. However, I do not agree that the "hell" shouldn't be in Scripture.

But a serious correction needs to be made with your statements. The translators of Scripture have caused a great deal of confusion by interpreting three distinct words as "hell"--Hades, Tartaroo (iirc), and Gehenna, which is the only one that should be translated "hell."

In Rev 20:14, the Greek word used is Hades--"Death and Hades were case into the lake of fire"-- which is the temporary abode of the dead, not the final hell, to which Jesus so often referred.

 

[mamre]

If we search the scriptures diligently we will start to understand it. Read Revelations 20, it says that the Sea, Hell and Death will deliver their dead to be resurrected and stand judgment. After judgment everyone will receive their just recompense.
Now, you seem to be mixing things up. Hell and the second death are not the same according to Revelations 20. Verse 14 states "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." But, before they were cast, they delivered their dead, see Rev. 20:13

Hell is not the second death according to the bible (Again, read Revelations 20, you will see). And if the scripture doesn't agree with your interpretation, it doesn't help to eliminate the word "hell" from the bible. If you do that, then you eliminate a whole chunk of doctrine from the bible because the Savior was in hell (not in the lake of fire) for a period and came out to be resurrected.

Like Mysterman, I agree that the Second Death, the Lake of Fire, is hell. However, I do not agree that the "hell" shouldn't be in Scripture.

But a serious correction needs to be made with your statements. The translators of Scripture have caused a great deal of confusion by interpreting three distinct words as "hell"--Hades, Tartaroo (iirc), and Gehenna, which is the only one that should be translated "hell."

In Rev 20:14, the Greek word used is Hades--"Death and Hades were case into the lake of fire"-- which is the temporary abode of the dead, not the final hell, to which Jesus so often referred.

Free,

There are two important principles you are touching here.
1. Is the Bible then the word of God as long as its translation is correct? Is that what you're saying?

and

2. Regardless of names, you then agree that there is a temporary or intermediary place where all the spirits go, after death, to wait for the resurrection and final judgment?

mamre

 

[Mysteryman]

First off, the word "hell" should not even be in our bibles.

It is the second death, or lake of fire

If the second death is not eternal, then our life with God would not be eternal. The words eternal or for ever would have no meaning or substance to them.

There is nothing temporary about the second death < It is eternal

Misteryman,

This is not any personal attack on your thinking. I am merely showing some dangers in that line of thinking. Saying that the word hell should not be in the bible amounts to changing what God has said. If we hold the bible to be the word of God for us then none of us have the authority to change it. As if we change, then it would be the same as picking what we like and discarding what we dislike about what God is commanding us to do. Hopefully that is not what you are implying. Surely you know that the Lord has warned everyone to not take or add anything to His word.

If we search the scriptures diligently we will start to understand it. Read Revelations 20, it says that the Sea, Hell and Death will deliver their dead to be resurrected and stand judgment. After judgment everyone will receive their just recompense.
Now, you seem to be mixing things up. Hell and the second death are not the same according to Revelations 20. Verse 14 states "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death." But, before they were cast, they delivered their dead, see Rev. 20:13

Hell is not the second death according to the bible (Again, read Revelations 20, you will see). And if the scripture doesn't agree with your interpretation, it doesn't help to eliminate the word "hell" from the bible. If you do that, then you eliminate a whole chunk of doctrine from the bible because the Savior was in hell (not in the lake of fire) for a period and came out to be resurrected.

The Savior going to hell and coming out to be resurrected is a type of things to come. It will happen to all that are in hell. Read Rev. 20:12, great and small to stand before the throne of God to be judged. Where they come from? They come from hell to be resurrected in order to stand judgment.

Now Jesus resurrected for Eternal Glory, because he was in hell to preach to the spirits in prison, not because of His deeds. Those that are in hell will resurrect to eternal damnation because they are their for their evil deeds, it seems.

After the judgment then, all recompenses are final and punishment and reward are eternal and forever, not before the judgment. And the judgment, according to the scriptures, come only after hell and death give up their dead. You are definitely right, there is nothing temporary about the second death. But the second death is not hell and it doesn't come before hell is cast into the lake of fire.

Actually, if you read the scriptures closely and diligently you'll see that the existence of hell attest once more to the great mercy and justice of God the Father. Think about it. There are many in hell that ended up there for their evil deeds, but that never heard of Jesus (this is why Jesus went to hell to preach to them, see 1 Pet. 3: 19). If they are to be judged justly and fairly, they need to hear the Gospel to accept or reject it. It would not be a just God that judges you according to a law you never heard of.

We all need to search the scriptures more diligently and not just say what we think it says. See what Jesus says: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life:" John 5: 39.

Have a great day,

mamre

Hi mamre

I am not offended, so don't worry.

The problem with our translations, is that many liberties have been already taken by our translators. Liberties that they should not have taken. Which means they either changed or altered the Word of God before we ever set our eyes upon reading our bibles.

When one recognizes this, the responsibility is for one to correctly read your bible. The word "hell" , like the word "Easter" which is also in our bible, comes from paganism. I am sure God does not mind if we throw out the paganism from our bibles. The word "nisan" is also pagan, and the correct Hebrew word is - "Abib" pertaining to that month. Yet , both the Hebrew and the pagan entered into our bible. Easter is pagan, and we should be saying the passover instead of Easter. The word "hell" is pagan as well. It does refer to a place of death. But nonetheless its pagan.


The word "hell" means an unseen state. To the pagans its meant as more of an unknown state.

"sheol" means "grave" or "pit"

"hades" is the greek word of the same hebrew word "sheol" - "grave" - Read Rev. 20:13

The greek word "geenna" is talking about the spiritual grave , which is the second death.

The last word translated "hell" is in II Peter 2:4 - and this greek word is - "tartaroo" which is a place of darkness, which btw, is within the earth, the depths of the earth. If I am not mistaken, we get our word torture from this greek word. Not literal tortue, but spiritual. An example would be like being put into jail. Or even a better example would be like children at recess, all the good children can go out and play, but you as a bad child have to stay inside and not be able to go out and play with the others. < This is not a permanent place , but "geenna" is a permanent place, the second death is permanent.

 

[Free]

Like Mysterman, I agree that the Second Death, the Lake of Fire, is hell. However, I do not agree that the "hell" shouldn't be in Scripture.

But a serious correction needs to be made with your statements. The translators of Scripture have caused a great deal of confusion by interpreting three distinct words as "hell"--Hades, Tartaroo (iirc), and Gehenna, which is the only one that should be translated "hell."

In Rev 20:14, the Greek word used is Hades--"Death and Hades were case into the lake of fire"-- which is the temporary abode of the dead, not the final hell, to which Jesus so often referred.

Free,

There are two important principles you are touching here.
1. Is the Bible then the word of God as long as its translation is correct? Is that what you're saying?

and

2. Regardless of names, you then agree that there is a temporary or intermediary place where all the spirits go, after death, to wait for the resurrection and final judgment?

mamre

1. No. All it means is that if we are going to be diligent, and ask the same of others, we need to realize that the English translations often lack precision. If we want to get a better understanding of what Scripture states, we need to consider what the Greek states and use several English translations to gain a better understanding.

2. I think it is possible that there is a temporary place prior to the Resurrection and that this place is Hades.

 

[Mike]

mamre, the confusion that I see with your argument as Free seemed to say, is that you seem to use "hell" when it fits your understanding and not when it doesn't. In one post you plug "hell" in and out of the same verse of scripture.

Here is the point: if Christ went to hell and preached to people there (see 1 Pet. 3: 19), then it is clear that those that accepted his message there would leave hell, and that makes hell temporary.

& in the same post...

Also Peter says that the Savior went and "...preached unto the spirits in prison;" 1 Pet. 3: 19

You go on to say "careful consideration leads you to assume this is 'hell'". You would have to extrapolate because the word is not mentioned in Revelation 20. So when we come to a name being that which you are finding argument with. If we back our conversation to its origin, we had a person struggling with the Christian doctrine. His primary concern was the God arbitrarily sentences people to Hell. I said He doesn't, but we sentence ourselves in rejecting Jesus. Now, are we talking about final judgment? That was his concern, right? So, regardless of what you call it, his concern was our banishment from Him. Revelation 20:11-15 speaks to those who are not written into the Book of Life and will be sent into the lake of fire, which is - you said it - Hell. And there's no coming back from that.

mamre, I didn't make this an issue, and I don't like to argue with well intended biblical Christians such as yourself. I'll argue with well intended humanists or well intended Mormons, or happyjoy who is probably well intended but rejects most of what we agree on, but I don't like to get into such long winded debates with fellow Christians. It's divisive and does not build up the community of believers, in my opinion. I think we had a misunderstanding, or maybe I still misunderstand you, and I wasn't comfortable with the direction you were taking this other guy's concern. I took your post to imply that a loving God would never allow anyone to be permanently separated from Him, since this was the context that the original author of the thread was purposing, and were taking the "no one really gets banished" new age theology. Since you weren't, I don't have a problem.

Since you do agree that there exists this banishment, but you're not calling that place "hell", I'll leave you with our differences and be done. Perhaps you'll read this reply and find flaw with my interpretation of scripture. You'll might want to argue it. Sorry, but I don't. It's just not my bag to bicker (even light-heartedly) about our differences when we agree on the True Salvation Issues. You are my brother, and I hope you consider me yours.

I'm sorry, by your name I inferred you were a "she". I didn't connect the name, and it sort of looks like "mama".

I'll be happy to hold someone's coat if they want to go a few rounds in Christian love.

Be blessed, Brother!

 

[mamre]

mamre, Now, are we talking about final judgment? That was his concern, right? So, regardless of what you call it, his concern was our banishment from Him. Revelation 20:11-15 speaks to those who are not written into the Book of Life and will be sent into the lake of fire, which is - you said it - Hell. And there's no coming back from that.

mjjcb,


But mjjcb, those that are not written in the Book of Life aren't exactly those that are in hell (or hades, as you prefer)? Also, for one to go to hell, doesn't he need to be through the final judgment?

There is no confusion:
The point in all this is this: There is an intermediary place or state where spirits go after they die to wait for the resurrection. Whatever it is called: Hades or Hell, it doesn't matter. Depending on how you lived your life you will wait in a prison, in anguish, or you will rest. Those that rise in the first resurrection will be with Christ. Those that rise in the second resurrection will suffer a second death.

The biggest problem I saw in trying to explain this is that the subject has been oversimplified. People just confuse the intermediary place of wait with the final destination of the wicked. And that is the reason that person in the other post area was confused.

It is important to understand that distinction, because that shows that God is just and will not simply send people to hell (lake of fire) if those people did good but not accepted the Gospel. God would be unjust to not recompense those that did good, because all good comes from God.

Do you agree with this?

Have a great day.
mamre