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Is It Possible For A Christian To Fall From "Grace"?

Mike S said:
Quoting from Matthew, written by a man who never knew Jesus in the flesh, never heard Jesus speak, depending on oral traditions, at least 50 years after the crucifixion of Jesus.
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I take this to mean you reject what is said in Matthew 25, as a mans opinion?

'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

How about this written in the Gospel according to John? -

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6


JLB
 
I herd a pastor touch on this topic today and he said that falling from grace is one person attempting, by their own righteousness to be justified - as in being self- righteous, instead of just accepting, what Jesus did for us on the cross. The things that we do that are bad (murder, adultry, swearing, lying, etc..) are just sins that we need to ask forgiveness for.
Just my two cents :twocents
 
JLB said:
I take this to mean you reject what is said in Matthew 25, as a mans opinion?

'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34

How about this written in the Gospel according to John? -

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6


JLB
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I didn't say I reject what is said in Matthew, as a matter of fact, I accept it. My point is that it is opinion, interpretation, a matter of faith. The author has nothing other than second/third/fourth hand 50 year old oral tradition and the behavior of Christian communities to base it on. Each of the Gospels differs from the other is ways sometime minor and sometime more important, such as when during Jesus' ministry did He overturn tables in the Temple, and on which day did Jesus die. Matthew is the most Jewish of the Gospels, the Gospel of John the most antagonistic to Jews. The whole tone of the Gospel of John is different from that of the other three, much more spiritual.

Interpretation.
 
Cturtle said:
I herd a pastor touch on this topic today and he said that falling from grace is one person attempting, by their own righteousness to be justified - as in being self- righteous, instead of just accepting, what Jesus did for us on the cross.
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It really is that simple. And law keeping is just one way a person can rely on their works to be declared righteous instead of relying on Christ.

And so the question is not whether or not believers can shrink back into thinking they have to do righteous things to earn a declaration of righteousness, but whether or not all Christians who do that come back to faith in Jesus Christ.

Is the warning not to fall from the grace of God in Christ enough all by itself to turn those who once trusted in the forgiveness of God back to their faith in Christ for the forgiveness of sins?

But, as I say, this is not really the problem that Christians at large struggle with at this time in church history. They struggle with the exact opposite. So many think because salvation is so utterly not of you and what you do that you can live like the devil and you are still freely justified by faith in Christ, not knowing that to live like the devil despite the grace of God you have received is also a rejection and a trampling of the grace of God.
 
Mike S said:
I didn't say I reject what is said in Matthew, as a matter of fact, I accept it. My point is that it is opinion, interpretation, a matter of faith. The author has nothing other than second/third/fourth hand 50 year old oral tradition and the behavior of Christian communities to base it on. Each of the Gospels differs from the other is ways sometime minor and sometime more important, such as when during Jesus' ministry did He overturn tables in the Temple, and on which day did Jesus die. Matthew is the most Jewish of the Gospels, the Gospel of John the most antagonistic to Jews. The whole tone of the Gospel of John is different from that of the other three, much more spiritual.

Interpretation.
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If you want to believe this post modern nonsense them you go ahead.

I guess you don't believe Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible either?


JLB
 
Cturtle said:
I herd a pastor touch on this topic today and he said that falling from grace is one person attempting, by their own righteousness to be justified - as in being self- righteous, instead of just accepting, what Jesus did for us on the cross. The things that we do that are bad (murder, adultry, swearing, lying, etc..) are just sins that we need to ask forgiveness for.
Just my two cents :twocents
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There is a balance.

Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 1 John 3:7

We are told to exercise godliness, practice righteousness, be led by the Spirit, abide in Him, walk in the spirit and you will not fulfill the lust's of the flesh...

The things speak to us of relationship with our God.

That we are to draw near to Him, and learn from Him, and seek Him, and ask Him for wisdom in these things.

He has not left us alone to live this life as orphans, for He loves us and desires us to walk with Him.

His mercy is new every morning.

We can do all things through Christ who strengthens us.

His life and righteousness within us will come pouring through us as we learn to yield to Him; to His Spirit within.

Sadly, folks have been taught to "explain away" the truths within the scriptures as nothing more than just a "fairytale story", written years later as some kind of "spiritual fiction".


JLB
 
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JLB said:
If you want to believe this post modern nonsense them you go ahead.

I guess you don't believe Moses wrote the first 5 books of the bible either?
JLB
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You make a lot of assumptions for someone who doesn't believe in interpretation.

But, since you're so intent on believing inerrancy of scripture, please explain the inconsistencies between the Gospels on time of Jesus chasing the moneychangers from the temple, the last supper, and the day Jesus died on the cross. You see, I know the reasons and don't consider them all that important, but I'm pretty sure they're a problem for you.
 
Mike S said:
You make a lot of assumptions for someone who doesn't believe in interpretation.

But, since you're so intent on believing inerrancy of scripture, please explain the inconsistencies between the Gospels on time of Jesus chasing the moneychangers from the temple, the last supper, and the day Jesus died on the cross. You see, I know the reasons and don't consider them all that important, but I'm pretty sure they're a problem for you.
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Is this man's opinion or the word of God?

I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me. John 14:6



JLB
 
JLB said:
Good answer!
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Yes, it is a good answer, and it does not depend on that scripture passage alone. I think I've made it abundantly clear my faith is based on interpreting individual texts in light of their place in the Bible as a whole. If ones faith is based on there never being inconsistencies in scripture, he simply can't defend that faith.



United Methodist Church Theological Guidelines: Scripture
"Our standards affirm the Bible as the source of all that is “necessary” and “sufficient” unto salvation (Articles of Religion) and “is to be received through the Holy Spirit as the true rule and guide for faith and practice” (Confession of Faith)."

"We properly read Scripture within the believing community, informed by the tradition of that community. We interpret individual texts in light of their place in the Bible as a whole."

"We are aided by scholarly inquiry and personal insight, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we work with each text, we take into account what we have been able to learn about the original context and intention of that text. In this understanding we draw upon the careful historical, literary, and textual studies of recent years, which have enriched our understanding of the Bible."

"Through this faithful reading of Scripture, we may come to know the truth of the biblical message in its bearing on our own lives and the life of the world. Thus, the Bible serves both as a source of our faith and as the basic criterion by which the truth and fidelity of any interpretation of faith is measured."
 
Mike S said:
Yes, it is a good answer, and it does not depend on that scripture passage alone. I think I've made it abundantly clear my faith is based on interpreting individual texts in light of their place in the Bible as a whole. If ones faith is based on there never being inconsistencies in scripture, he simply can't defend that faith.



United Methodist Church Theological Guidelines: Scripture
"Our standards affirm the Bible as the source of all that is “necessary” and “sufficient” unto salvation (Articles of Religion) and “is to be received through the Holy Spirit as the true rule and guide for faith and practice” (Confession of Faith)."

"We properly read Scripture within the believing community, informed by the tradition of that community. We interpret individual texts in light of their place in the Bible as a whole."

"We are aided by scholarly inquiry and personal insight, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. As we work with each text, we take into account what we have been able to learn about the original context and intention of that text. In this understanding we draw upon the careful historical, literary, and textual studies of recent years, which have enriched our understanding of the Bible."

"Through this faithful reading of Scripture, we may come to know the truth of the biblical message in its bearing on our own lives and the life of the world. Thus, the Bible serves both as a source of our faith and as the basic criterion by which the truth and fidelity of any interpretation of faith is measured."
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Faith does not depend on the scriptures.

Faith comes by hearing God's Rhema word, not scripture.

Faith comes by hearing God's living Voice, not by what the scriptures say.


JLB
 
LovethroughDove said:
Two different times. He would get a little fired up when he would see this.
Do you mean the exact day or what happened on that day?
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Was Jesus crucified on Passover, or the day before? All four Gospels state that Jesus was killed on the day of preparation, but John seems to disagree with the others on the timing of the last supper (was it a Passover feast?) and whether or not Jesus was slain at the time of the slaughtering of lambs for sacrifice. Some reading the Gospel of John believe that the author of the Gospel placed Jesus' death to occur at the same time as the slaughter of the lambs in order to reinforce the narrative of His being the "Lamb of God." Certainly the Gospel of John is filled with Passover symbolism.

These interpretations, or inconsistencies, don't bother me, they don't challenge my faith. The Gospels are not meant to be absolutely historically accurate in every detail and timing, as if they were eye witness reports in a criminal trial. They are stories of the "good news" of Jesus' life from the point of view of different authors.

We've arrived at this point only because I've challenged the idea that there is a "plain saying" to all scriptures, meaning no opinions or interpretations. For someone who take the position of absolute inerrancy of scripture's every word, these inconsistencies would seem to be a problem. They aren't a problem for me.
 
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