Is It Possible For A Christian To Fall From "Grace"?

[JLB]

I do know the truth. You see, the scripture speaks plainly to me. It's you who is confused.

See how this works? You have no authoritative moral standing to tell me, nor anyone else, what is the truth. You are a fallible creature, just like the rest of us.

Welcome to the human family.

That's why we have the scriptures and the Holy Spirit to lead us and guide us and instruct us in the way of truth and righteousness.

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins.
James 5:19-20

Someone has to be the one to persuade a wayward person back, when they have wandered from the truth.


JLB

 

[Karl]

Matthew 18:23-35 NASB

Hmmmmm, Jesus said it was a lesson on forgiveness Matt 18:35, ...not falling from grace.

I asked you if you knew of anyone that had stopped trusting in the Blood and had lost their justification, ...what you are calling fallen from grace.

Now I ask you if you know anyone that has fallen from grace, that has be justified by the Law, ...like Paul said,

...whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.Gal 5:4

Paul states the Law reveals our sin,

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:20

So please tell me who has been justified by the law?

Because Paul is saying those that have been saved by grace through faith, if they are justified by the law (which can't happen) will fall from grace.

He doesn't say they will lose their justification, because then he would be contradicting himself, ...and not only himself , but the Holy Spirit too,

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

Chapter 8 opens with No Condemnation and ends with No Separation.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38, 39

Paul says things to come and no other creature and what they both are saying includes little 'ole me.

 

[JLB]

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

Chapter 8 opens with No Condemnation and ends with No Separation.

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

There is no condemnation for those who do not walk after the flesh.

Those who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

These are the same Galatians that Paul warned about falling from Grace.

Those that practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those that inherit the Kingdom, will hear these words on the Day of Judgment;

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


If you do not inherit the kingdom of God, then you will hear these words on the Day of Judgement;

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Paul warns these Galatians just a few verses earlier - You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

... that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.Galatians 5:21


Christians who do not inherit the kingdom, because they have practiced the works of the flesh, have fallen from Grace.


JLB

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Hmmmmm, Jesus said it was a lesson on forgiveness Matt 18:35, ...not falling from grace.

The servant lost the forgiveness he had. Forgiveness is how one is declared righteous. As opposed to doing righteous things, which is what the Galatians were doing in place of being declared righteous through faith in the forgiveness of God. They had fallen from the grace of God's forgiveness in Christ.

I asked you if you knew of anyone that had stopped trusting in the Blood and had lost their justification....

The unmerciful servant was forgiven, then he lost that forgiveness. Jesus said this is how it is in the kingdom. He said this is how it is for you and me if we act like the unmerciful servant did.

...what you are calling fallen from grace.

Actually Paul calls it that. Whether one thinks it is hypothetical only, or not, Paul really is the one who coined the phrase.

Now I ask you if you know anyone that has fallen from grace, that has be justified by the Law, ...like Paul said,

...whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.Gal 5:4

Paul states the Law reveals our sin,

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. Rom 3:20

So please tell me who has been justified by the law?

The Galatians had moved down from trusting in Christ to trusting in law keeping to be justified. There are no later additional letters in the Bible for us to know who among them did not come back to the forgiveness of God for a declaration of righteousness, but Paul plainly said they had fallen from trusting in Christ to trusting in self. Plainly.

Because Paul is saying those that have been saved by grace through faith, if they are justified by the law (which can't happen) will fall from grace.

He plainly said they had fallen from grace by turning back to reliance on law keeping to be justified instead of on Christ for justification. Whether or not they stayed there is not known. If he wrote later letters to them they have not been preserved for us to know any more about the Galatians.

I've been saying this for months in these forums. The question isn't whether or not a believer can stop believing in Christ. The Galatians did that. What the real question is, can a Christian stay there, or is the warning to not stay there sufficient to rescue the person who once believed and bring them back to grace?

He doesn't say they will lose their justification, because then he would be contradicting himself, ...and not only himself , but the Holy Spirit too,

Justification in Christ is conditioned on faith in Christ. If you do not have faith in Christ you do not have justification in Christ. To argue otherwise is to contradict the very gospel we proclaim.

There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. Rom 8:1

Chapter 8 opens with No Condemnation and ends with No Separation.

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:38, 39

Paul says things to come and no other creature and what they both are saying includes little 'ole me.

I don't see unbelief in the list.

This is why I'm not OSAS. I absolutely refuse to believe that God will save people on the Day of Wrath who do not believe and trust in Jesus Christ for a declaration of right standing with him through the forgiveness of sins. I will never betray the gospel message that way. Never.

 

[Mike S]

Someone has to be the one to persuade a wayward person back, when they have wandered from the truth.
JLB

That assumes he knows the truth, a huge, and usually false, assumption driven by ego.

 

[JLB]

That assumes he knows the truth, a huge, and usually false, assumption driven by ego.

Never the less, the sure foundation of scripture says -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

If you want to build your house on your opinion, then that is your choice.


JLB

 

[Mike S]

Never the less, the sure foundation of scripture says -

Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back,
20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins. James 5:19-20

If you want to build your house on your opinion, then that is your choice.


JLB

And not YOUR opinion? I'll take that choice.

A good exercise for you might be to read the Gospels again and learn what they're all about. Each of the four Gospels is a narrative for a specific community by a specific author with a specific interpreted message. Each is opinion about what was important about Jesus' ministry. Despite your wishful thinking otherwise, opinion and interpretation is built right into the New Testament. Why do you think that as soon as the earliest Christians began their journey to God there were church communities in Jerusalem and Syria and Egypt and what is modern Turkey with very different ideas about Christ's message, very different interpretations?

 

[JLB]

And not YOUR opinion? I'll take that choice.

A good exercise for you might be to read the Gospels again and learn what they're all about. Each of the four Gospels is a narrative for a specific community by a specific author with a specific interpreted message. Each is opinion about what was important about Jesus' ministry. Despite your wishful thinking otherwise, opinion and interpretation is built right into the New Testament. Why do you think that as soon as the earliest Christians began their journey to God there were church communities in Jerusalem and Syria and Egypt and what is modern Turkey with very different ideas about Christ's message, very different interpretations?

Sounds like you have been indoctrinated with post modern thought.

This is a far cry from the words of Jesus Christ...


24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Matthew 7:24-29


...and great was it's fall.


I think you need to read the words of Jesus Christ again...unless you want to hear these words on the Day of Judgment as you stand before Him -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.

I would prefer for you to hear these words from Him -

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


JLB

 

[Karl]

There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.
Romans 8:1

There is no condemnation for those who do not walk after the flesh.

Those who practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness,
20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies,
21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. Galatians 5:19-21

These are the same Galatians that Paul warned about falling from Grace.

Those that practice the works of the flesh, will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Those that inherit the Kingdom, will hear these words on the Day of Judgment;

Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: Matthew 25:34


If you do not inherit the kingdom of God, then you will hear these words on the Day of Judgement;

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Matthew 25:41


Paul warns these Galatians just a few verses earlier - You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4

17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Galatians 5:17-18

... that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.Galatians 5:21


Christians who do not inherit the kingdom, because they have practiced the works of the flesh, have fallen from Grace.

JLB

You left out a couple of very important verses,

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph 2:8, 9

Striving to walk in the Spirit and not accomplish the desires of our flesh is a work, Peter declared Lot was righteous and he certainly was not walking in the Spirit, ...willing to give his daughters to be raped.

It's not about striving, I tried that for two years and failed miserably, it's all about the submission of our will and obedience to the promptings of the Holy Spirit, but that's another subject.

I was taught the Word of God stands alone, it doesn't contradict itself and nothing can topple it, however, ...if there is just one verse in Scripture that contradicts my belief then I'm wrong and not the Word, I have given just two verses the contradict what you are proposing.

Also that part of the verse is not only contradicted by Scripture, but is not found in other manuscripts, on top of that Paul spent his whole ministry teaching against justification by works, ...for him to add that to THE definitive work on justification for the believer, the book of Romans, ...I think not.

 

[Karl]

The servant lost the forgiveness he had. Forgiveness is how one is declared righteous. As opposed to doing righteous things, which is what the Galatians were doing in place of being declared righteous through faith in the forgiveness of God. They had fallen from the grace of God's forgiveness in Christ.

Friend there is not any point in continuing this discussion, evidently we have built our faith on two different subjects.

You believe justification come from forgiveness.

I believe justification comes fro the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul. Lev 17:11

And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission. Heb 9:22

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Friend there is not any point in continuing this discussion, evidently we have built our faith on two different subjects.

You believe justification come from forgiveness.

I believe justification comes fro the shed Blood of Jesus Christ.

Yep (to the highlighted part). I was even going to say this in my post.

I have definitely noticed this in the church at large today, and I know it is at the root of not being able to understand what God's grace in salvation really is. People have forgotten that we are justified because our sin guilt has been removed through the forgiveness of sin, made possible by the shedding of innocent blood on our behalf. It is a full understanding of this truth that keeps one from making God's grace a license to sin that says even if you stop believing you are still saved.

The condition for salvation is righteousness. The only way mere humans can get that righteousness is to have it bestowed on them through the removal of our unrighteousness. And that removal of unrighteousness happens through the forgiveness of sin, made possible by the blood of Christ. The person who truly understands this does not then assume that they can stop believing in the faith that secured their forgiveness/justification and that they will still be forgiven/justified.

Karl, I know you're just another victim of this erroneous indoctrination about grace/works that presently saddles the church. What set me free from it was looking at the plain words of scripture that the church had taught me to rationalize away to the point that my eyes just swept right past them when I saw them and being honest about what they were plainly saying. I see this repeatedly in these forums--people reading plain words of scripture that you post and they can't see them because they have been trained not to. It's amazing, even scary, how many times I've posted a passage or verse to support an argument and then someone responds by asking, "where does the Bible say that" and I'll have to repost the exact same scripture again for them to see.

 

[Jesse]

It's amazing, even scary, how many times I've posted a passage or verse to support an argument and then someone responds by asking, "where does the Bible say that" and I'll have to repost the exact same scripture again for them to see.

You mean the verse that's been posted 10x's already in this thread that says we can fall from grace? lol

Its US falling from grace, not God pushing us off a cliff, it's our decision. If we have forgiveness and salvation, it's really us who walks away, not God.

 

[reba]

We stumble, we trip, we fall , He is the Good Shepard looking for #100 ... I dont think we can stumble trip or fall from Grace.. My question is can we Jump turn and run not get up when we fall?

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

We stumble, we trip, we fall , He is the Good Shepard looking for #100 ... I dont think we can stumble trip or fall from Grace.. My question is can we Jump turn and run not get up when we fall?

His hand is always right there reaching out to us.

 

[reba]

and i agree Rollo 2

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

and i agree Rollo 2

Agree?
With me?
No wonder your eyes are rolling.

 

[Mike S]

Sounds like you have been indoctrinated with post modern thought.

This is a far cry from the words of Jesus Christ...


24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock:
25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26 But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand:
27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching,
29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes. Matthew 7:24-29


...and great was it's fall.


I think you need to read the words of Jesus Christ again...unless you want to hear these words on the Day of Judgment as you stand before Him -

Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:.

I would prefer for you to hear these words from Him -

Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:


JLB

Quoting from Matthew, written by a man who never knew Jesus in the flesh, never heard Jesus speak, depending on oral traditions, at least 50 years after the crucifixion of Jesus. One Gospel of four that made it into the current canon but merely one alongside dozens of others including the Gospel of Mary, the Gospel of Thomas, the Gospel of Philip, and many others considered authoritative among Christian churches throughout the Middle East. Yeah, no opinions nor interpretations there.

If it's your opinion that I've never read the Gospels and that if you simply repeat them to me often enough, I'll suddenly have an epiphany recognizing you interpretations, well, you're wrong.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

You mean the verse that's been posted 10x's already in this thread that says we can fall from grace? lol

Yep, that's exactly what I mean.

Its US falling from grace, not God pushing us off a cliff, it's our decision. If we have forgiveness and salvation, it's really us who walks away, not God.

Spot on, bro.

 

[Jesse]

We stumble, we trip, we fall , He is the Good Shepard looking for #100 ... I dont think we can stumble trip or fall from Grace.. My question is can we Jump turn and run not get up when we fall?

Yes, I believe we can jump, turn and not return.

His hand is always right there reaching out to us.

But the requirement would be that we reach out to grab his hand, and some people don't.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

Yes, I believe we can jump, turn and not return.

But the requirement would be that we reach out to grab his hand, and some people don't.

I've never heard of a person who fell down and didn't try to get back up.