Is it Possible for a True Christian to lose their Salvation.

[FreeGrace]

I asked this:
"I have already asked what the specific 'gifts to Israel' Paul was referring to. What are they? And where does Paul mention them for any real context for 11:29?"

The gifts through which the call of the Gospel is made.

OK, WHICH gifts?? Your generalized answer does not answer my question. I am quite curious as to what these specific gifts are to Israel are that are irrevocable.

Further, your view includes the notion that Paul never intended to include the gift of God being eternal life as one of those irrevocable gifts. Yet, no one has shown otherwise from any context.

Since Paul specifically described both justification and eternal life as gifts of God before he noted that the gifts of God are irrevocable, if he didn't mean to include either of these specific gifts in 11:29, he would have made that very clear by specifically excluding those gifts from what he meant in 11:29. But there is no such verse.

If the call is needed then eternal life is not the gift, since it says... the gifts and and calling together are irrevocable.

How come Paul specifically described eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23??

And how does adding the "call" to what is irrevocable somehow eject the gift of eternal life from gifts that are irrevocable? Your logic is quite flawed.

Gifts are plural and refer to multifaceted ministry gifts of the body of Christ, through which the call of the Gospel to the lost are demonstrated.

Speaking of the fact that 'gifts' in 11:29 is plural, let's count the number of gifts that Paul specifically noted in Romans before getting around to 11:29, shall we?
1. spiritual gifts noted in 1:11
2. justification noted in 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life noted in 6:23

Now, the onus is on your side to prove that the plural of 'gifts' in 11:29 specifically excludes ANY of these 3 gifts already noted within the context of Romans before he wrote 11:29.

4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy,let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:4-8

None of this supports your apparent claim that Paul never meant to include the gift of God being eternal life as the gifts of God that are irrevocable.

The gifts, plural refer to the gifts through which the call of the Gospel is demonstarted, or presented.

What are these "gifts through which the call of the gospel is demonstrated"?? Please be specific because I have no idea what this refers to.

The gift of eternal life is singular.

Oh, I see. Is that your reason for claiming that Paul never meant that the singular gift of justification and eternal life cannot be meant in 11:29?? Seriously??

For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:23

Not the "gifts" of eternal life.

So what? How does Paul's description of 3 separate gifts of God become UN-gifts just because each one was presented singularly before he got to 11:29.

Because the word is in the plural in 11:29, we all know that he WAS INCLUDING all 3 previously described gifts of God in 11:29, which are, once again:
1. spiritual gifts in 1:11
2. justification in 5:15,16,17
3. eternal life in 6:23

Eternal life if is "in Christ Jesus".

There is no argument about this fact.

Those who are "in Christ Jesus", have eternal life, and if they remain "in Christ Jesus", then in the end they will be given eternal life at the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

This statement assumes that one can no longer be "in Christ", all without any evidence, since Paul was clear in Eph 1:13,14 and 4:30 that those who believe are sealed with the Holy Spirit of PROMISE, sealed FOR THE DAY OF REDEMPTION.

Even in 4:30, where Paul commands believers to NOT grieve the Holy Spirit, he doesn't say anything about any negative consequences, such as what your side proposes; loss of the Holy Spirit, loss of salvation, etc.

 

[JLB]

OK, WHICH gifts?? Your generalized answer does not answer my question. I am quite curious as to what these specific gifts are to Israel are that are irrevocable.

Sorry but you keep saying gifts, when Romans 11:29 say the gifts and calling...

Here is the scripture, for all to read.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

The order that the Holy Spirit gives is first the gifts, which He has placed in the body of Christ, through which the calling of repentance; the calling of the Gospel... the calling of lost souls to turn to God, is demonstrated.

First the gifts must administer the calling before eternal life can be obtained through believing/obeying the call of the Gospel.

Paul explains how we all have gifts, though we may have a different function, as the body may have different parts [gifts] according to the grace we each have been given.

Paul explains this just a few verse later, from his statement in Romans 11:29, in Romans 12:4-8.


Here it is below, written out for you to see. Notice this context is not some 5 chapters previous, when Paul was speaking and exhorting the gentile Romans not to become slaves again to sin.

The context is how through God's wisdom, Paul says he is provoking the Jews to jealousy in order to save some of them: in order to see them reconciled to God, as they see Gentiles, ministering to them and demonstrating the call to repentance: To turn to God and be reconciled.

4 For as we have many members in one body, but all the members do not have the same function, 5 so we, being many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. 6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, let us prophesy in proportion to our faith; 7 or ministry, let us use it in our ministering; he who teaches, in teaching; 8 he who exhorts, in exhortation; he who gives, with liberality; he who leads, with diligence; he who shows mercy, with cheerfulness. Romans 12:4-8

We all have been given gifts with which to minister healing, restoration, and reconciliation to those whom the Spirit sends us to.

18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation,19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation. 20 Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God. 21 For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. 2 Corinthians 5:18-21


JLB

 

[JLB]

How come Paul specifically described eternal life as a gift of God in 6:23??

And how does adding the "call" to what is irrevocable somehow eject the gift of eternal life from gifts that are irrevocable? Your logic is quite flawed.

Here is the context:

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

Here are some points that must be reconciled, and understood from the context.

• It's those who have their fruit unto holiness that in the end are given everlasting life.
• Eternal life is said to be "in Christ Jesus".
• The wages of sin is death.
• Those who have become slaves to God, have the fruit unto holiness.

The broader context allows more to be brought to bear on the subject, and must be understood as a whole, the Chapter 7 and 8.


By the time a person gets to Chapter 11, and especially the verse preceding verse 29 that say:

19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in.” 20 Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. 22 Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? Romans 11:19-24

That person should have a clear understanding that Christians who choose to live a sinful life of disobedience and unbelief, can expect to be cut off from being in Christ: In Covenant with Christ.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8



JLB

 

[FreeGrace]

Sorry but you keep saying gifts, when Romans 11:29 say the gifts and calling...

OK, so show everyone who reads this thread how adding the words "and calling" changes anything I've pointed out.

Here is the scripture, for all to read.

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. Romans 11:29

So what? The verse clearly says that the calling of God is irrevocable and the gifts of God are irrevocable. All of which refutes your whole theology of soteriology. Eternal life is ONE OF THOSE gifts of God that are irrevocable. You've failed to prove otherwise.

And since Paul noted 3 of God's gifts before he wrote 11:29, it is quite obvious that he was included ALL of those gifts in 11:29. And we know that there are other gifts that are specified in Scripture, such as the Holy Spirit throughout the book of Acts.

The order that the Holy Spirit gives is first the gifts, which He has placed in the body of Christ, through which the calling of repentance; the calling of the Gospel... the calling of lost souls to turn to God, is demonstrated.

Right. Paul noted that in Rom 1:11, which he called "spiritual gifts". Already in the plural.

First the gifts must administer the calling before eternal life can be obtained through believing/obeying the call of the Gospel.

OK, so please explain how "the gifts" administer the calling? What does that even mean? And please be specific.

Paul explains how we all have gifts, though we may have a different function, as the body may have different parts [gifts] according to the grace we each have been given.

Paul explains this just a few verse later, from his statement in Romans 11:29, in Romans 12:4-8.

Here it is below, written out for you to see. Notice this context is not some 5 chapters previous, when Paul was speaking and exhorting the gentile Romans not to become slaves again to sin.

So one must read ahead in order to understand what was written first? Is that how context works? We all know better than that. Context is that which statements refer back to. So when Paul mentioned the plural gifts of God in 11:29, we have to look back to what he already described as gifts of God, which it seems you're not willing to do. But even allowing your peek ahead doesn't help you. Because Paul had already described several (plural) gifts of God before he got around to writing 11:29. And ALL those gifts are included in 11:29. And you've not proven otherwise.

We all have been given gifts with which to minister healing, restoration, and reconciliation to those whom the Spirit sends us to.

And Paul taught that we have been given spiritual gifts from God, and justification from God, and eternal life from God. And all those are included in 11:29.

 

[FreeGrace]

Here is the context:

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

v.22 does NOT change anything I've said about eternal life being a gift of God.

Here are some points that must be reconciled, and understood from the context.

It's those who have their fruit unto holiness that in the end are given everlasting life.​

Your claim is without merit or fact. You've just twisted v.22 in to nonsense. Jesus was very clear about HOW and WHEN one HAS (in the present tense) eternal life in John 5:24. Anyone is free to read that verse.

Eternal life is said to be "in Christ Jesus".

True. And changes NOTHING of what I've said.

The wages of sin is death.

Again, true. And changes NOTHING of what I've said.

Those who have become slaves to God, have the fruit unto holiness.

Your works-salvation system goes against everything in Scripture.​

By the time a person gets to Chapter 11, and especially the verse preceding verse 29 that say:

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8
JLB

And Paul refutes your terrible misunderstanding of that passage in Rom 3:20, where he notes that no one will be declared righteous by observing the law, which is the same as "continuance in doing good".

Apparently the Holy Spirit gave him the discernment to know that there would be those like yourself who would mangle Rom 2:6-8 so the Holy Spirit moved him to write 3:20 as an antidote to your twisting.

 

[JLB]

v.22 does NOT change anything I've said about eternal life being a gift of God.

It sure doesn't.

Eternal life is a gift of God.

However, vs 22 makes it clear that there are conditions, as to who will get everlasting life.

Those who have becomes slaves of God, and have their fruit unto holiness, which is what Paul says throughout Romans 6.

Paul establishes this fact at the beginning of his letter to the Romans.

God, who “will render to each one according to his deeds”:
eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8


Eternal life is given to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

This is will never change.

Eternal life is in Christ Jesus our Lord, and is given to those...who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;

Those who choose to turn back to a life of immorality and sin, will receive the indignation and wrath of God.




JLB

 

[smaller]

There is a general understanding in the non OSAS camps that they are either only part time sinners and part time sinless OR they double deal the facts of their sins, making theirs somehow better than others. Paul tells us this is not the case in Romans 3:9 and Gal. 3:22 for examples. Scripture has made it's own conclusions in these matters. If anyone thinks otherwise it won't change the reality of being a sinner.

Paul sets this matter to rest, putting himself as a factual sinner at the bottom of the pile, just to remove any doubt about the fact of it:

1 Timothy 1:15
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

IF we don't understand "sin" as a working that is, as Paul showed us, "no more I" in Romans 7:17 & 20, we'll never harmonize scriptures such as these:

3 John 1:11
Beloved, follow not that which is evil, but that which is good. He that doeth good is of God: but he that doeth evil hath not seen God.

Romans 7:
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.

Got harmony? Anyone?

 

[Jethro Bodine]

I have already asked what the specific 'gifts to Israel' Paul was referring to. What are they? And where does Paul mention them for any real context for 11:29?


Then please provide what specific gifts to Israel Paul was referring to.


Well, I seem to be having a huge problem finding ANY reference to 'gifts to Israel' ANYWHERE in the letter to the Romans.

In fact, I have a problem finding ANY reference to 'gifts to Israel' ANYWHERE in the Bible.

So, what are these so-called 'gifts' and where are they described?

You are completely evading what I said.
You can make the gift whatever you want. It doesn't matter if it's a McDonald's Happy Meal. The point you are evading is that anyone who can read, and is honest, can see that Paul is saying the gifts and calling are without repentance in regard to them always being available to the Israelites, even though past generations of Israelites rejected them and died lost.

Just because Israel has rejected the gifts and calling of God their has been no change of mind on God's part as to giving the gifts and calling to later generations of Israelites. That's what the context shows is the meaning of what Paul said. And Paul says he himself is proof of that. Just because his ancestors rejected God's calling, God did not change his mind about keeping the promise of those gifts and calling to the nation of Israel. God keeps the promise because of the Patriarchs. Anybody with eyes to see can read this for themselves.

No where in the passage does Paul talk about a person believing and being saved and then it being impossible for them to lose that salvation. No where. That meaning has been added by you. Nothing in context supports your claim of what Paul meant when he said "the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable" (Romans 11:29 NASB). But the context entirely and completely supports what I'm saying. Completely and totally.

This, and my previous post, is sufficient to explain the truth of the passage to those who are honest and humble enough to see it. All one has to do is read it for themselves to see what Paul meant when he said the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance. And it has NOTHING to do with a fictitious OSAS doctrine.

 

[Jethro Bodine]

Honestly, Jesus didn't say:

It's as plain as day. All you have to have are eyes that can read plain words and a heart that will believe them.

Matthew 18:6-9 NASB and Mark 9:42-48 plainly show us that believers in Christ can go to hell because of those who cause them to stumble. Plain as day. It's the kill shot--the death blow--the knock out punch--for both traditional OSAS, and hyper-grace OSAS. It's impossible to twist what Jesus said so the fictitious, ear tickling doctrine of OSAS gets preserved. People who can see know this. Deceivers can not lie to a person who can, and wants, to see.

 

[Mike]

Amongst several members, too mqny accusations of lying, fabricating, twisting, and adding to God's Word. I've closed this discussion, and it may remain closed. On to the next OSAS thread.