Is it sinful to consume alcohol?

[Jon-Marc]

I'm not saying that drinking is wrong, because I don't believe it is. Excess use of alcohol should be avoided. The point I was trying to make was a Christian being seen going into a bar, or anywhere else where a Christians probably shouldn't be. What are others apt to think when they see that? Would that hurt one's testimony?

I was told about a man who was sitting in a bar with a cigarette in one hand and a drink in the other as he told a woman about him being a Christian. Do you think she believed that he was? Do you think that his witnessing to her in that manner was effective and would cause her to say, "This man is different. He has something I want."?

1 Thess. 5:22 says "Abstain from all appearance of evil." Drinking may not be "evil" if done moderately, but the world has it's idea of what a Christian is SUPPOSED to be, and how many of us can call ourselves a Spirit-filled Christian? I'm a raid I don't. I heard something once that goes, "If you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?" Food for thought.

 

[Lewis]

He he

 

[Atonement]

Mutz:

Excuse for what?

To drink

My only problem, Atonement, with going into a bar, is what if a non-Christian sees me go in there and questions my Christianity because they don't think a Christian should be in a bar and assume I'm in there to drink--even if I'm not? Non-Christians have always been quick to point out anything they don't think I should be doing or saying. That's what goes through my mind as I think about my testimony before others. I used to go a bar near work because they had great hamburgers, but I didn't drink. The thing I wondered was what if someone who knew I was a Christian saw me go in there? Wouldn't they have assumed I was going in there to drink and maybe get drunk? Don't people usually like to think the worst of others--expecially of Christians?

Well everyone would have their own opinion. When I went out and had a coke to play a game of pool, I know I'm secure in my relationship to God, I would not really care what that person thought. They have a right to their opinion. If they are fast enough to condemn. I always carry a pocket Bible with me. I'll simply hand it to them and have them show me where it condemns me from playing a game of pool. And I would tell them to look it up over there, get out of my way I'm trying to take a shot. I will not stop having fun because I'm a Christian. I just don't need to add alcohol in the equation... I'm better and more of a man then that. If one needs alcohol to have a good time. They are boring to begin with. So they use alcohol to losen up and relax. I done enough drugs and alcohol for two lifetimes. I don't condemn those that do drink. I'll condemn them if they get behind a wheel, if it breaks up a family, if it causes our children to suffer through physcial abuse, sexual abuse etc. Then I have a problem with drinking.

 

[mutzrein]

I don't need an excuse to drink. I am a friend of wine bibbers. I don't hold myself up before them as being 'righteous' and they not, because I'm a 'Christian'. What makes me a child of God is not abstinence from wine, but the Spirit that dwells within me. If my conscience allows me to do what others conscience does not, then what is it to them. I am answerable to God.

However, as I posted earlier I realise that there are brothers and sisters in the Lord whose faith is weak so while my conscience may allow me drink, if it causes them to stumble, it is better that I don't.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Mutz:


Well everyone would have their own opinion. When I went out and had a coke to play a game of pool, I know I'm secure in my relationship to God, I would not really care what that person thought.

I certainly agree with that, but my concern when I went into a bar to eat (I didn't consume alcohol) was that I could be a stumbling block to someone who needed Christ. That's all I'm saying. I'm NOT saying that going into a bar is wrong. Jesus ate with sinners and was condemned for it. Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive and seeing a problem where there isn't any. However, I've always believed in the old adage, "It's better to be safe than sorry." I've often said that what I do is nobody's business but God's, but still I don't want to be the cause of someone turning away from God.

 

[dancing queen]

I think more people around me (teenagers/20s) have rejected the idea of christianity because they think Christians are boring. Therefore I think it better they see that being a christian doesn't stop you from having fun - and what a witness that you go out and have fun without getting drunk.

 

[ChristineES]

If you say you are a stumbling block if you go to a bar and not drink, think about what Jesus did. He ate and drank with "sinners" and tax collectors and such, and the Pharisees called him a drunkard and sinner Himself. Does this mean that Jesus Himself was a stumbling block. I think evangelists would do better to teach in bars, the way that Jesus did, after all, aren't we supposed to copy what Jesus did? That is something to think about.

 

[Oscar3]

I don't need an excuse to drink. I am a friend of wine bibbers. I don't hold myself up before them as being 'righteous' and they not, because I'm a 'Christian'. What makes me a child of God is not abstinence from wine, but the Spirit that dwells within me. If my conscience allows me to do what others conscience does not, then what is it to them. I am answerable to God.

However, as I posted earlier I realise that there are brothers and sisters in the Lord whose faith is weak so while my conscience may allow me drink, if it causes them to stumble, it is better that I don't.

Mutz
I am wondering. What Spirit dwells in you? if you don't believe in the trinity and you don't believe that Jesus is God, then what Spirit dwells in you. Since the Holy Spirit or Jesus is not God, then God is not dwelling in you.
So who or what is it? :o

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz
I am wondering. What Spirit dwells in you? if you don't believe in the trinity and you don't believe that Jesus is God, then what Spirit dwells in you. Since the Holy Spirit or Jesus is not God, then God is not dwelling in you.
So who or what is it? :o

It is the spirit of God that dwells within me.

Jesus said, “And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever  the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.â€Â

And as Peter spoke concerning what was prophesied by Joel, 'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

But of course you know all this intellectually, however if you really understood that the Spirit of God is not given because you believe in the doctrine of the trinity, you would not need to ask what Spirit dwells in me.

 

[Imagican]

Mutz,

Once again, my friend, you show a wisdom and understanding that many seem unable to obtain even when offered freely through your words. For, once again, you offer truth that is SO simple in it's delivery yet encompasses EXACTLY what is pertinent to the topic so far as faith is ocncerned. Most would do well to heed the words you offer instead of attempting to judge.

IF one 'believes in their heart' that drinking is a sin, then IT IS. It does take a bit of security in one's relationship with God to realize that. We will be judged by our HEARTS more so than our actions. NOT what we do so much as the WHY of it.

We have much information that this is so. We ARE FREE, those that accept to be. NO, not free to sin. Free FROM sin. And one person's opinion of what 'they' believe sin is, is of little consequence to the TRUTH, EXCEPT TO THEMSELVES.

Not only did Jesus drink wine, but ALMOST EVERYONE, including children, drank wine back then. Did they get drunk? Some did, others didn't.

Now, does drunkeness exclude one from the gift offered? Highly unlikely. Even if one slips into the sin of drunkeness, does this negate the 'gift' offered through Christ?

The MAIN reason that the 'Christian' should avoid drunkeness is the effect that it 'may' have upon their relationship. As we 'sin', our path is impeded and we do NOT 'grow' as we ought. BUT, once we accept Christ into our hearts WE HAVE FORGIVENESS. How many times??????? Read the Word and do the math for yourself.

So, is drinking alcohol sinful? Depends on one's understanding. Is drunkeness a sin? Absolutely. But forgiveness is MUCH more important than condemnation. For Jesus Himself offered that He came NOT to judge the world, but to SAVE it.

MEC

 

[Silverchild79]

I just finished a long study on this

There is only one verse in the bible (from what I've seen) that speaks in caution to the moderate use of alcohol (there are plenty speaking against excess and electing public officials who drink in excess). That verse says to be careful not to cause a brother to stumble. That means drinking in front of recovering Alcoholic, eating ice cream around someone who is turning away from gluttony and on a diet to preserve their body as a temple, etc. Even then it's not a caution to avoid such behaviour, it's just a reminder to consider those around you before you act.

One thing that is clear was that Christ was okay with the moderate and even celebratory consumption of wine. It's just in the bible, no use in denying it so far as I'm concerned. There are even versus detailing that the abundance of wine is a sign of God's favor.

Two popular arguments are used to debunk that

1: It was a cultural thing and it's different now (which I think speaks against the timelessness of God's law)

2: Wine is now different then it was in the time of Jesus (After a study on the history of wine I concluded that not only was it the same in the time of the Roman Empire, Romans are credited historically with establishing modern wine making)

It's not culturally wrong to advocate prohibition, everyone knows you can't have alcoholism without alcohol. But you can't IMO claim that the Bible is against reasonable consumption of alcohol when the only sinless person in existence did it.

I'll finish on this. Christ was all about living your life to the fullest under God's law. Just as we are careful not to violate the word of God we should be likewise careful not to sour our time on earth out of needless fear.

 

[Silverchild79]

Is kosher wine ever not fermented?

the word wine by it's very definition is the fermentation process of grapes

 

[Imagican]

But Atonement, haven't you read, 'for bodily exercise profiteth LITTLE', (he he he). Just kidding............

No, Yes. There is NOTHING 'unclean' of and in itself. It's 'what' we DO with it that makes it 'good' or 'bad'. Paul stated OUTRIGHT to have a little wine for thy ailments AND FOR THY STOMACHS sake. A DIRECT indication that there is NOTHING 'wrong' with a 'little wine' for the pleasant effects and for it's TASTE.

Do you recon Noah was severely PUNISHED for becoming a 'drunkard'? YES, alcohol CAN cause one to STUMBLE in thier 'walk'. NO doubt about it. And, as Mutz pointed out, we are certainly to beware of WHO we drink around or offer it to.

And the argument that wine was alcohol-less 'grape juice' is MOOT. For if those of time were drinking wine WITHOUT alcohol, those that witnessed them speaking in tongues at Penacost would NOT have accused them of 'being DRUNK'.

And the wine used in jewish weddings CERTAINLY has alcohol in it. And that the comment was made concerning the QUALITY of the wine at the wedding that Christ attended and turn water into wine, ALSO clearly offers that this 'wine' was NOT simply 'grape juice'.

And, in closing, let us 'just SAY' that drinking IS a 'sin'. I ask one to consider this: Do you reacon it's a 'worse sin' to drink or to REFUSE to 'give that bum on the corner a dollar'?

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

But not drunk with wine :smt030 - wherein is excess - but be filled with the Spirit. Cheers MEC :D

 

[Radlad72]

There are a couple of different meanings if the original word for wine in scriptures. They are to do with "New Wine" (unfermented) and "old wine" (fermented). I believe the stuff that Jesus partook in was new wine. He would not have put fermented stuff into his body.

Timothy was told to have some wine as the water there was not very good. Red grape juice also does the same thing for your stomach as red wine.

I also choose not to drink as I believe that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that we should not put things in it that can cause harm. ANY amount of alcohol can cause problems - this has been proven. It can slow down the reflexes as it affects our brains.

Rad.

 

[Guest]

I also choose not to drink as I believe that our body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and that we should not put things in it that can cause harm. ANY amount of alcohol can cause problems - this has been proven. It can slow down the reflexes as it affects our brains.

Rad.

May I ask if your consume caffefine? Caffefine can cause problems, is considered a mind-altering drug, and is harmful to the body.

For something to be considered 'wine' it still has to be fermented.

 

[Imagican]

I do NOT agree with you assertation concerning 'new wine'. For this is EXACTLY what the apostles were accused of in the beginning of Acts. 'New wine' was the 'cheapest' and therefore gave the 'goofiest buzz'. Like drinking 'green beer', wine that has not been 'aged' has a tendancy to offer a 'cheap buzz'.

i know that there is much debate upon this issue. But I PROMISE you that the wine that Christ produced from water was NOT alcohol-free wine. It was stated that the wine that Christ produced was BETTER than that the ceremony began with.

And those that condemn alcohol use are no different than Peter and his belief that The Word was for the JEWS ONLY. And look what it took for him to come to 'the truth'. Paul explained, IN DETAIL, that there is NOTHING 'unclean' that when it goes into the body can cause the 'body' to become UNCLEAN. It's what comes OUT OF IT, (the mouth; speach), that IS capable of doing such.

If alcohol WERE the 'sin' that some would have it, then Christ would have STATED it, AND the apostles. YES, we ARE warned of the detrimental effects of 'DRUNKENESS'. Short of that, we have NO indication that there is ANYTHING 'wrong' with the consumption of alcohol.

And here's to you Mutz.

MEC

 

[Free]

I believe the stuff that Jesus partook in was new wine. He would not have put fermented stuff into his body.

Based on what verse(s)?

Timothy was told to have some wine as the water there was not very good.

Not necessarily:

1Ti 5:23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.)

He was told to not drink only water. If the water was bad, which is plausible, then why wouldn't Paul say to drink only wine (in moderation of course)? It is very possible that Timothy really was sick from something other than water and consuming some wine would help. Alcohol is sometimes recommended for people in pain or with certain ailments. Wine itself is rich in antioxidants.

Red grape juice also does the same thing for your stomach as red wine.

Except that it takes much more grape juice to get the same benefits from wine.

 

[Radlad72]

a) I no longer drink caffeine as it was having negative effects on myself.

b)

I do NOT agree with you assertation concerning 'new wine'. For this is EXACTLY what the apostles were accused of in the beginning of Acts. 'New wine' was the 'cheapest' and therefore gave the 'goofiest buzz'. Like drinking 'green beer', wine that has not been 'aged' has a tendancy to offer a 'cheap buzz'.

I don't know where you get your info from, but maybe you should do a bit more research before posting as it becomes a bit of a bugbear to respond. New wine was definitely NOT 'cheap' wine. It was unfermented. Hence the saying of Jesus about putting new wine into old wineskins. A by-product of fermentation is gas and this is why the wineskins would burst, they have no more elasticity and they can't deal with the gas production of the fermentation process.
Jesus put no 'old wine' into His body and never made it for anyone else. His water to wine at Cana was new wine - or unfermented grape juice - which tasted better than the old wine they had been consuming.

A good site for more information (explained a whole lot better than I can) is: http://www.biblicalperspectives.com/boo ... ble/2.html. The man who wrote this has a Ph.D in Theology so he knows his stuff.

Rad

 

[Imagican]

I just finished a long study on this

There is only one verse in the bible (from what I've seen) that speaks in caution to the moderate use of alcohol (there are plenty speaking against excess and electing public officials who drink in excess). That verse says to be careful not to cause a brother to stumble. That means drinking in front of recovering Alcoholic, eating ice cream around someone who is turning away from gluttony and on a diet to preserve their body as a temple, etc. Even then it's not a caution to avoid such behaviour, it's just a reminder to consider those around you before you act.

One thing that is clear was that Christ was okay with the moderate and even celebratory consumption of wine. It's just in the bible, no use in denying it so far as I'm concerned. There are even versus detailing that the abundance of wine is a sign of God's favor.

Two popular arguments are used to debunk that

1: It was a cultural thing and it's different now (which I think speaks against the timelessness of God's law)

2: Wine is now different then it was in the time of Jesus (After a study on the history of wine I concluded that not only was it the same in the time of the Roman Empire, Romans are credited historically with establishing modern wine making)

It's not culturally wrong to advocate prohibition, everyone knows you can't have alcoholism without alcohol. But you can't IMO claim that the Bible is against reasonable consumption of alcohol when the only sinless person in existence did it.

I'll finish on this. Christ was all about living your life to the fullest under God's law. Just as we are careful not to violate the word of God we should be likewise careful not to sour our time on earth out of needless fear.

Not bad for a Rookie, (he he he), just kidding of course. You have offered wisdom that ONLY comes from 'understanding'. Your study 'paid off' in such understanding.

Blessings, my friend,

MEC