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Desire to be a vessel of honor unto the Lord Jesus Christ?
Join Hidden in Him and For His Glory for discussions on how
https://christianforums.net/threads/become-a-vessel-of-honor-part-2.112306/
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stovebolts
Member
- Nov 4, 2004
- 18,905
- 7,268
Urumbo
Hi Vic,
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#315271
Urumbo is a good friend of mine from Church. He's young, but grew up in the Church of Christ. He has some honest questions, and is very bright. He's not pushing an agenda, he just isn't sure where he stands on the Trinity. We spoke briefly after service tonight on the two verses he posted.
Anyway, please be nice to him if you can. He's an honest person and does not have an agenda. He just loves scripture (and is well versed in it). He would be an excellent addition to the forum if he isn't ran off.
Jeff
Hi Vic,
http://www.christianforums.net/viewtopi ... ht=#315271
Urumbo is a good friend of mine from Church. He's young, but grew up in the Church of Christ. He has some honest questions, and is very bright. He's not pushing an agenda, he just isn't sure where he stands on the Trinity. We spoke briefly after service tonight on the two verses he posted.
Anyway, please be nice to him if you can. He's an honest person and does not have an agenda. He just loves scripture (and is well versed in it). He would be an excellent addition to the forum if he isn't ran off.
Jeff
Urambo Tauro said:This isn't meant to be a challenge or response to anyone's post, so I hope you forgive me for just jumping right in.
How should we approach this quote? Is this to be our definition of "one"?
John 17:20-23
....And what do we do with this? I'm kind of baffled over this one.
Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19
I'll go back and read the other posts now.... sorry if I posted anything redundant.:
Hi Urambo - As far as I'm concerned you haven't posted anything redundant. And I for one welcome such 'baffling' questions.
I probably don't have the answers that you want to hear if you are seeking support for the notion that Jesus is God. Actually I have used these same scriptures with others (in other threads in days/months gone by) over this same question. And to date I don't recall anyone who has ably defended them from a 'trinitarian' point of view.
Oh sure, there are plenty of other scriptures used to 'support' the notion, as an endeavour to overtrump the previous one but more often than not there is no defense for tricky ones like these - and many others like them.
So I will be watching with interest too :D
lovely
Member
- Apr 20, 2005
- 3,012
- 0
Hi Urambo, and others.
Urambo wrote:
First to deal with your verses...
I think that Jesus was actually making the point that He is God, because we can all agree that He is good. The ruler called Him "Good Master"...seeking the way of eternal life. Jesus asks Him...Why do you call me good, there is only one who is good...God. Hmmm, seems to me that Jesus is making the point that He has the ability, and the authority, to answer the ruler's question. Jesus points to the law, and tells Him to follow it...the man says he has...Jesus then gives him a specific command, but he can not follow it...Only God can give us the way of life. Jesus' point is further made with these verses...
Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Who then can be saved? It is only by God.
Jesus is God, he laid down His glory, and He came as a child to be with man...as man...the second Adam, but also God with us.
God with us...
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
He laid down His former glory...
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He laid down His life...
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
He was sent by God from Heaven...He is the Son of God eternally, not just from the moment of incarnation. (more about this)
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jesus laid down His own life to do the will of the Father, because the Father is the economy of God.
John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven....38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jesus is the manna, the Bread of Life...the heavenly bread, because He is from Heaven, and has come to do the will of His Father. Only those who eat of His body will enter in, just as the priests of old were allowed to partake of the sacrifice and enter...so are we.
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Read John. Jesus did come to do the will of the Father, but that is not the contradiction, that's the point.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jesus is the heir, He is the Word, the revelation of the Father, and was also by whom the worlds were made.
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
who is superior to the angels, as shown by seven passages of Scripture
He is the express image of God in the brightness of His glory, and upholds all things by HIS power, and is at the right Hand of the Father.
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jesus was made to be higher than the angels in status, because He is the natural Heir, being God's Son, and God. (more on this later)
Notice here that the Angels WORSHIP Him. God is a jealous God, and no one is above Him, or to be worshiped...Jesus is God, and proceeds from the Father eternally, and so this would not break God's unchangeable law.
Notice again, verse 8....what is the Father saying here to the Son? "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" He called Him God, and says that His throne is forever.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
But, here he goes on to say that God, Thy God...The Father is God as well.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Again, the Father calls Him Lord, and points out the heves are the works of His hands, and He was there in the beginning when the foundations were laid.
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
God does not change.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Though He came as a messenger and a servant, He was more than the angels, because He is God...He will sit at the right hand until His enemies are His footstool.
Jesus calls Himself God, and declares His own eternalness...
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
There is a lot more to say on the subject. Jesus was also our priest, but not of lineage of the tribe of Levi, but of a divine lineage. Hebrews has much more to say about this, and also about how Christ was not in need of a sacrifice for Himself, but was able to enter in the throne room of His own. He was able to make only one sacrifice because He is eternal, and it was for the World in it's entirety, because He can not die. Very intersting.
I once thought the Trinity should not be simplified, but God has made things simple to understand. The eternal covenant is one that is eternal, and it is between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...which proceeds from them both. There are many analogies to this, and I once thought we shouldn't use them, but now I think they are good because God has made it simple for us to understand, and Christ used them Himself. He is the vine, we are the branches. Like that. Things that are one, can be made up of parts...The three are one much as an Egg is one egg, but in three parts. Very Simple, imo. Anyway, I hope this helps some. Sorry about length. The Lord bless you, all of you.
Urambo wrote:
First to deal with your verses...
I think that Jesus was actually making the point that He is God, because we can all agree that He is good. The ruler called Him "Good Master"...seeking the way of eternal life. Jesus asks Him...Why do you call me good, there is only one who is good...God. Hmmm, seems to me that Jesus is making the point that He has the ability, and the authority, to answer the ruler's question. Jesus points to the law, and tells Him to follow it...the man says he has...Jesus then gives him a specific command, but he can not follow it...Only God can give us the way of life. Jesus' point is further made with these verses...
Mark 10:24 And the disciples were astonished at his words. But Jesus answereth again, and saith unto them, Children, how hard is it for them that trust in riches to enter into the kingdom of God!
25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.
26 And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved?
27 And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible. Who then can be saved? It is only by God.
Jesus is God, he laid down His glory, and He came as a child to be with man...as man...the second Adam, but also God with us.
God with us...
Matthew 1:23 "Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us."
He laid down His former glory...
John 17:5 And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was.
He laid down His life...
John 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.
He was sent by God from Heaven...He is the Son of God eternally, not just from the moment of incarnation. (more about this)
John 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Jesus laid down His own life to do the will of the Father, because the Father is the economy of God.
John 6:32 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven....38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.
Jesus is the manna, the Bread of Life...the heavenly bread, because He is from Heaven, and has come to do the will of His Father. Only those who eat of His body will enter in, just as the priests of old were allowed to partake of the sacrifice and enter...so are we.
John 8:21 Then said Jesus again unto them, I go my way, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sins: whither I go, ye cannot come.
22 Then said the Jews, Will he kill himself? because he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come.
23 And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
Read John. Jesus did come to do the will of the Father, but that is not the contradiction, that's the point.
Hebrews 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Jesus is the heir, He is the Word, the revelation of the Father, and was also by whom the worlds were made.
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
who is superior to the angels, as shown by seven passages of Scripture
He is the express image of God in the brightness of His glory, and upholds all things by HIS power, and is at the right Hand of the Father.
4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they.
5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?
6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him.
7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire.
8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Jesus was made to be higher than the angels in status, because He is the natural Heir, being God's Son, and God. (more on this later)
Notice here that the Angels WORSHIP Him. God is a jealous God, and no one is above Him, or to be worshiped...Jesus is God, and proceeds from the Father eternally, and so this would not break God's unchangeable law.
Notice again, verse 8....what is the Father saying here to the Son? "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever" He called Him God, and says that His throne is forever.
9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
But, here he goes on to say that God, Thy God...The Father is God as well.
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Again, the Father calls Him Lord, and points out the heves are the works of His hands, and He was there in the beginning when the foundations were laid.
12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
God does not change.
13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?
14 Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
Though He came as a messenger and a servant, He was more than the angels, because He is God...He will sit at the right hand until His enemies are His footstool.
Jesus calls Himself God, and declares His own eternalness...
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
There is a lot more to say on the subject. Jesus was also our priest, but not of lineage of the tribe of Levi, but of a divine lineage. Hebrews has much more to say about this, and also about how Christ was not in need of a sacrifice for Himself, but was able to enter in the throne room of His own. He was able to make only one sacrifice because He is eternal, and it was for the World in it's entirety, because He can not die. Very intersting.
I once thought the Trinity should not be simplified, but God has made things simple to understand. The eternal covenant is one that is eternal, and it is between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit...which proceeds from them both. There are many analogies to this, and I once thought we shouldn't use them, but now I think they are good because God has made it simple for us to understand, and Christ used them Himself. He is the vine, we are the branches. Like that. Things that are one, can be made up of parts...The three are one much as an Egg is one egg, but in three parts. Very Simple, imo. Anyway, I hope this helps some. Sorry about length. The Lord bless you, all of you.
D
DM
Guest
- Thread starter
- #27
Lovely's comments and Urambo's quest
Lovely begins comments to Urambo with words like, "I think that . . ", and "seems to me . . ." This is appropriate and fair. To authoritatively say "Jesus is God", however, needs to be qualified in the same manner. You think that Jesus is God, Jesus seems to be God. It all comes down to how we interpret the Biblical data. Lovely is clearly well studied in the trinitarian perspective concerning whether or not Jesus is God.
I would like to encourage Urambo to at least consider another possibility in viewing these texts though.
The passage in John 17:20-23 is in reference to unity of purpose, not oneness of God's being/nature, I believe. The same sentiment can be glimpsed from Galatians 3:28 which says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Jesus' appeal to God in John 17:21 is that, "they may all be one even as You, Father, are in me and I in You." In what sense is Jesus using the idea of "one"? Is it one in purpose, or one in nature/being? I would conclude it's of purpose. (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:8 where Paul and Apollos are "one").
The other passages you mentioned in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 need to be examined with respect to Matthew 19:16,17 as well, which has a slightly different take. It's also quite possible that Jesus' question, "Why do you call me good?" can be taken simply at face value. Jesus is deferring attention away from himself and glorifying his God and Father by saying, "No one is good but God". For Lovely to conclude that this passage is a proof text for concluding that Jesus is claiming to be God because he is called "good" by someone (which, Jesus certainly is "good" - no argument there), is to read more into the text than it says, in my opinion.
As for the "God with us" mentioned in Matthew 1:23 being taken literally by Lovely, this is arguably going beyond the intended sentiment of just what "God with us" means. The Hebrew expression of "God with us" (or for that matter, God without us) can be seen in Deuteronomy 1:42, Joshua 1:5 / 7:12 and 2 Chronicles 20:17. "God with us" can be understood to mean that God is on their (the Israelites) side, if you will. It does not necessitate literal presence as an incarnated human being. If it did, then the child in context of Isaiah 7:14 who was born during the reign of King Ahaz must have also been, literally, God.
Time won't allow me tonight to address all of the verses that Lovely brought up (which are all worth careful consideration), but I hope that's a start to at least consider other possibilities for you, Urambo.
In Christian love,
David
Lovely begins comments to Urambo with words like, "I think that . . ", and "seems to me . . ." This is appropriate and fair. To authoritatively say "Jesus is God", however, needs to be qualified in the same manner. You think that Jesus is God, Jesus seems to be God. It all comes down to how we interpret the Biblical data. Lovely is clearly well studied in the trinitarian perspective concerning whether or not Jesus is God.
I would like to encourage Urambo to at least consider another possibility in viewing these texts though.
The passage in John 17:20-23 is in reference to unity of purpose, not oneness of God's being/nature, I believe. The same sentiment can be glimpsed from Galatians 3:28 which says, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Jesus' appeal to God in John 17:21 is that, "they may all be one even as You, Father, are in me and I in You." In what sense is Jesus using the idea of "one"? Is it one in purpose, or one in nature/being? I would conclude it's of purpose. (cf. 1 Corinthians 3:8 where Paul and Apollos are "one").
The other passages you mentioned in Mark 10:18 and Luke 18:19 need to be examined with respect to Matthew 19:16,17 as well, which has a slightly different take. It's also quite possible that Jesus' question, "Why do you call me good?" can be taken simply at face value. Jesus is deferring attention away from himself and glorifying his God and Father by saying, "No one is good but God". For Lovely to conclude that this passage is a proof text for concluding that Jesus is claiming to be God because he is called "good" by someone (which, Jesus certainly is "good" - no argument there), is to read more into the text than it says, in my opinion.
As for the "God with us" mentioned in Matthew 1:23 being taken literally by Lovely, this is arguably going beyond the intended sentiment of just what "God with us" means. The Hebrew expression of "God with us" (or for that matter, God without us) can be seen in Deuteronomy 1:42, Joshua 1:5 / 7:12 and 2 Chronicles 20:17. "God with us" can be understood to mean that God is on their (the Israelites) side, if you will. It does not necessitate literal presence as an incarnated human being. If it did, then the child in context of Isaiah 7:14 who was born during the reign of King Ahaz must have also been, literally, God.
Time won't allow me tonight to address all of the verses that Lovely brought up (which are all worth careful consideration), but I hope that's a start to at least consider other possibilities for you, Urambo.
In Christian love,
David
S
scorpia
Guest
- Thread starter
- #28
If you really want the truth Urambo, come and go direct to Jesus Christ, the only True God, alive and real and existing both in heavens and in earth. Jesus is still speaking with people today and you can direct all your questions to him for you to be able to know the TRUTH. He is still the Good Pastor and Teacher of all todayt as in the days of the biblical times hence He said in the bible that no one cometh to the Father except by Me. You can only come to know the truth if you will be under the direct tutelage of the Lord God Jesus Christ.Urambo Tauro said:This isn't meant to be a challenge or response to anyone's post, so I hope you forgive me for just jumping right in.
How should we approach this quote? Is this to be our definition of "one"?
John 17:20-23
....And what do we do with this? I'm kind of baffled over this one.
Mark 10:18/Luke 18:19
I'll go back and read the other posts now.... sorry if I posted anything redundant.
But if you will direct your question to your fellow men like what you did in your post, what you will only get are just the opinions of your fellow men based on their own comprehension of what they read from the bible. Only God, the Lord Jesus Chrsit can bring us to the TRUTH, come to Him and let yourself be under His tutelage. Use the bible in coming to the Lord Jesus but be sure to study and learn from the Lord and not from the bible alone. May guide give you the correct guidance in coming to Him.
stovebolts
Member
- Nov 4, 2004
- 18,905
- 7,268
Vic C. said:
Boy am I feeling stupid
: I thought I had pm'd you Vic... not posted (now you can understand why there is a link in the thread)... Sorry everyone... : I need a vacation 8-)
:
U
Urambo Tauro
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- #31
Oops, wrong button! :-D That's funny.
Sorry guys, I din't mean to hijack the whole thread. The thread doesn't need a response from me to keep going. Although I am going to do some more thinking before I give it another post. That's a lot to chew on. Thanks, everybody!
Sorry guys, I din't mean to hijack the whole thread. The thread doesn't need a response from me to keep going. Although I am going to do some more thinking before I give it another post. That's a lot to chew on. Thanks, everybody!
jgredline said:
Do you possess original thought? I thought plagiarism was against the TOS. Changing words around and interpolating your own don't dismiss the rule.
But as far as the OP, these are my personal views on John 1 (100% my writing):
S
Solo
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- #34
The Word which was with God and was God was not Jesus until after the Word God became flesh; therefore when did the Word God become the Father God? After the Word God became the Son of God. So the Word God created all things for His own pleasure, and after the Word God became the Son of God and the son of man, He became an example to mankind to serve God for he thought it not robbery to be equal to the Word God, but the Word God's will was to redeem man so the Word God became the one and only Redeemer God, and Savior God.
Simple.
Simple.
S
Solo
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- #36
Don't misunderstand the fact that Jesus Christ is God and God came in the flesh to execute the redemption/salvation of mankind by being born a man. Jesus was the Word God, and is the Word God become flesh, and has existed from the beginning as the Creator God, therefore God the Father is God, Jesus the Son is God, and the Spririt of God is God. Scripture reference below:mutzrein said:
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. 6 There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. 7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. 8 He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. 9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: 13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. John 1:1-14
cyberjosh
Member
- Oct 19, 2005
- 3,472
- 11
If you are looking for a direct quote of Jesus saying these things you won't find it however we do have very similar claims which the Jews then threw back at him saying that he was claiming to be God, and they tried to kill him because of it. I'll show you those verses, but first realize that that was not Jesus' primary mission to ask people to worship him, because he came to serve rather than be served, and he was there to proclaim himself as the Messiah rather than outright claim to be God.
Now look at the following verses and make your own conclusions of Jesus' claims:
"Jesus answered them, “Is it not written in your law, ‘I said, “You are godsâ€Â’? If He called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken), do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?" (John 10:34-36).
Just before that Jesus had said:
"I and My Father are one†(John 10:30)
And look how the Jews reacted:
"Then the Jews took up stones again to stone Him. Jesus answered them, “Many good works I have shown you from My Father. For which of those works do you stone Me?†The Jews answered Him, saying, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy, and because You, being a Man, make Yourself God.†" (John 10:31-33)
Also notice the equivalence of what Jesus claimed with the clear implication and indication that he was claiming to be God:
"For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God" (John 5:18).
And even though Jesus didn't outright demanD worship, he was worshiped and called God nonetheless by his disciples.
"And those who were in the boat worshiped Him, saying, "You are certainly God's Son!" (Matthew 14:33)
"Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28)
----------------------
These are a clear indication that people really believed that he was, or believed that he was claiming to be, God. And Jesus permitted it all. Unless Jesus really commited blasphemy then he was God.
D
DM
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Cybershark has made some observations and drawn some conclusions based on the implications of John 10:31-34. While I understand those conclusions, I would submit that this is not the only possible result from considering these verses.
The Jews were offended at Jesus' claim to speak and act with the authority of God. (This had been the case most of the time in Jewish history, whenever a legitimate prophet of God appeared on the scene). Jesus claimed to be "a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God" (cf. John 8;40). The threat of stoning was not that Jesus was claiming to BE God, but that he was claiming to speak on behalf of God.
In order to bring this point to light, Jesus appeals to the passage Cybershark mentioned in Psalm 82:6. Jesus' appeal, then, is to the fact that God had called them "gods" (elohim) "to whom the word of God came". Jesus, all along, is proclaiming to be speaking the words of God (as the prophets had who preceded him).
Cybershark then ties this passage to John 5:18 where we read that Jesus had been accused of "making himself equal with God". It's important to note that in the very same verse, Jesus had been accused - "not only was he breaking the Sabbath . . ." The question must then be asked, "Was Jesus really breaking the Sabbath?" In any case, it was this presumed Sabbath breaking, as well as "calling God his own Father", that brought about the persecution. In Jesus' case, God really is his Father in a legitimate sense, and it is "for that reason" that he is called "the Son of God" (cf. Luke 1:35).
The "worship" mentioned in Matthew 14:33 is translated from the Greek word "proskyneo", which does not necessitate an interpretation that Jesus is God. Other men were given "proskyneo" as well, most notably to David in 1 Chronicles 29:20 (The Septuagint [LXX] translation of the Hebrew uses "Proskyneo" - which the KJV translates into English as "worship"). This is Jesus receiving honor, but does not necessitate that the word be translated into English as "worship".
Finally, the passage in John 20:28 is an evidence of Thomas' faith in the words which Jesus had spoken in John 17:22-26, namely, that God was present with Jesus. Thomas is acknowledging his Lord (Jesus) and his God (the Father). If we interpret John 20:28 as meaning that Jesus IS God, then we have no other conclusion to draw but that Peter must have been Satan, based on Jesus' words in Matthew 16:23.
The above are just my own comments of course, and I admire the gentleness with which Cybershark made his/her post.
In Christian love,
David
The Jews were offended at Jesus' claim to speak and act with the authority of God. (This had been the case most of the time in Jewish history, whenever a legitimate prophet of God appeared on the scene). Jesus claimed to be "a man who has told you the truth which I heard from God" (cf. John 8;40). The threat of stoning was not that Jesus was claiming to BE God, but that he was claiming to speak on behalf of God.
In order to bring this point to light, Jesus appeals to the passage Cybershark mentioned in Psalm 82:6. Jesus' appeal, then, is to the fact that God had called them "gods" (elohim) "to whom the word of God came". Jesus, all along, is proclaiming to be speaking the words of God (as the prophets had who preceded him).
Cybershark then ties this passage to John 5:18 where we read that Jesus had been accused of "making himself equal with God". It's important to note that in the very same verse, Jesus had been accused - "not only was he breaking the Sabbath . . ." The question must then be asked, "Was Jesus really breaking the Sabbath?" In any case, it was this presumed Sabbath breaking, as well as "calling God his own Father", that brought about the persecution. In Jesus' case, God really is his Father in a legitimate sense, and it is "for that reason" that he is called "the Son of God" (cf. Luke 1:35).
The "worship" mentioned in Matthew 14:33 is translated from the Greek word "proskyneo", which does not necessitate an interpretation that Jesus is God. Other men were given "proskyneo" as well, most notably to David in 1 Chronicles 29:20 (The Septuagint [LXX] translation of the Hebrew uses "Proskyneo" - which the KJV translates into English as "worship"). This is Jesus receiving honor, but does not necessitate that the word be translated into English as "worship".
Finally, the passage in John 20:28 is an evidence of Thomas' faith in the words which Jesus had spoken in John 17:22-26, namely, that God was present with Jesus. Thomas is acknowledging his Lord (Jesus) and his God (the Father). If we interpret John 20:28 as meaning that Jesus IS God, then we have no other conclusion to draw but that Peter must have been Satan, based on Jesus' words in Matthew 16:23.
The above are just my own comments of course, and I admire the gentleness with which Cybershark made his/her post.
In Christian love,
David
S
Solo
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- #39
Do you believe that Jesus is God, the creator of all things; and that all things were created for his pleasure?DM said:
Solo said:
In terms of Jesus relationship to God, let me assure you, I do have understanding and it is not understanding that any man has given me.
But I’ll tell you what I don’t understand. It is, that those who WANT to believe a certain doctrine find it necessary to twist scripture in order to find the support they want. For example, nowhere in scripture is the phrase used, “Jesus was the Word God†or “the Word God become (sic) fleshâ€Â. And neither does scripture speak of phrases such as “God the Son†or “God the Holy Spiritâ€Â.
But, scripture plainly refers to Jesus as the “son OF God†and the Holy Spirit as the “Spirit OF Godâ€Â. And it also speaks of God as the God OF our Lord Jesus Christ.
Now I have no problem at all with the scripture you have quoted in John 1 and I am sure that you are aware of my explanation of its meaning as I have made it on more than one occasion on this forum. Rather than saying that Jesus IS God it accurately states both the nature of the Word and position that Jesus (the Word) has in relation TO God.
However, since you stake your salvation on the premise that Jesus IS God, I understand fully that you cannot, yea will not, see anything else. And I cannot give you sight that you do not wish to have – since you claim that you already see.