Is Jesus really God?

[Gabbylittleangel]

And 1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1x1 = 1. False analogy.

Ok wavy. I had three 1's to represent The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. What do your other 39 1's represent?

Naturally, I presume, what is deemed inadequate as an explanation is so because it does not agree with the trinity doctrine.

I deem it inadequate, because there has been no explanation as to who or what they believe the Holy Spirit is. If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is this that has entered into the heart of a born again believer?

 

[Fnerb]

Fnerb,
Have you ever noticed that folks reject the idea of the Trinity because they don't understand how it is possible?
Yet the same folks will confess that they believe that God spoke and the world came into being.
They believe that Jonah was swallowed by a great fish and lived.
They believe that Jesus Christ died and rose from the dead.
They believe that the blood of Jesus washes away sin.
They have no explanation for the beginning and end of time
Or what is beyond the end of the universe

How is it possible that people believe these things, yet need to understand how the Trinity can be before they accept it?

I agree Gabby.

Matthew 28:19 clearly mentions 3 distinct persons in one God.

Matthew 3:13-17 - Shows the 3 again ... God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three separate entities present at one time, yet the bible clearly acknolwedges the divinity of each.

Acts 5:3-4 - Shows lieing to The Holy Spirit = lieing to God

What about John 1:1 and John 1:14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

 

[mutzrein]

I have yet to hear an adequate explanation from those nontrins as to who or what they believe that the Holy Spirit is. If there were no Trinity, then the Holy Spirit could not be God either......

Hi Gabby

There are now two posts in your 'Holy Spirit' thread since your last post there. What are your thoughts on what has been posted?

 

[mutzrein]

Adam was "of God" in a different sense than Jesus. Adam is a creation. Jesus existed within the Father, divine attributes flowing from the Father to him. He was brought forth (by means of the virgin Mary) and manifested in the person of Jesus, hence he is the Son of God in the strict sense (not simply "of God" as in Luke; essentially we are all "of God").

"Fully" in relation to "divine", imo, means reflecting the Father's nature/character. Whatever the Father can do/exhibit/perform, can be mimicked by the Son. The Son has prerogative by nature of being God's Son to do what God does as God gives to him. He does not possess the authority himself. That would make the Father/Son relationship of the two meaningless.

Matthew 11:27
"All things have been handed over to Me by My Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father; nor does anyone know the Father except the Son, and anyone to whom the Son wills to reveal Him.

John 5:19
Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it is something He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner.

John 5:30
" I can do nothing on My own initiative As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

Thankyou wavy. I concur with your comments here.

 

[scorpia]

If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is this that has entered into the heart of a born again believer?

It is simply their own understanding of what they read from the bible. Proof/s? Different taechings and doctrines (from different denominations and religious groups) that resulted from reading the bible.

 

[mutzrein]

It is simply their own understanding of what they read from the bible. Proof/s? Different taechings and doctrines (from different denominations and religious groups) that resulted from reading the bible.

My understanding does not result from reading the bible. My understanding comes from God. And then when I read the bible it becomes alive - because it is not just words on the page of a book. It is the confirmation and not the cause of what the spirit of God writes on my heart.

 

[scorpia]

My understanding does not result from reading the bible. My understanding comes from God. And then when I read the bible it becomes alive - because it is not just words on the page of a book. It is the confirmation and not the cause of what the spirit of God writes on my heart.

Then it is good for you that you do not get them from the bible but from God hence always listen to God for your own salvation and eternal life. Nice to hear from you again, God bless you.

 

[wavy]

You didn't get the point, Gabby, as far as the equation goes...But we'll move on:

I deem it inadequate, because there has been no explanation as to who or what they believe the Holy Spirit is. If the Holy Spirit is not God, then what is this that has entered into the heart of a born again believer?

The Holy Spirit is God's imparted divine nature.

 

[Imagican]

Did Jesus exist as the Word prior to being born of the virgin Mary? Who was he prior to being born of the virgin Mary? Please explain what you mean by "manifested in the person of Jesus, hence he is the Son of God". Was Jesus a person before being manifested in the person of Jesus?

Let me try to answer this Solo.

Christ existed PRIOR to becoming flesh. That He WAS The Word is debatable. The Word IS God. The problem arises when we accept the simple altering of the letters of words offered through scripture. It becomes quite obvious upon just a cursory study of the history of the interpretation of the Bible that those that chose to alter certain letters did so with a pre-concieved notion that Jesus WAS/IS God. If we simply eliminate this pre-conceived notion, there is MUCH more understanding possible.

There WERE NO capital letters in the original Greek that John wrote his gospel using. The capital W in 'Word' was 'ADDED' to the scripture, therefore ALTERING it's original meaning. This becomes apparent when one simply reads the gospel of John WITHOUT the capital W in 'Word'. What we THEN find is a simple recap of the relationship with God and man from the beginning. For Christ SPECIFICALLY stated that the words, (Word), that He offered WAS NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN Him BY THE FATHER, (God).

So, while I will agree that Christ existed PREVIOUS to 'taking on the flesh', I do NOT agree with the 'trinitarian' explanation of the first three verses of John. That was altered in order to 'push' these verses in a 'particular' directioin. And it seems to have worked pretty well so far as the 'trinitarian' point of view. BUT for these three verses to BE as offered by 'trins', MUCH of the 'other' statements made by John would, by necesity, be negated. I accept the gospel 'as a whole' instead, and DO NOT opt to 'pick and choose' what I discern, based on a 'pre-conceived' notion.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

I agree Gabby.

Matthew 28:19 clearly mentions 3 distinct persons in one God.

fnerb, In this I can only HALF agree. Three distinct persons, no doubt, but NOWHERE in this offering is it stated that these three are ONE God.

Matthew 3:13-17 - Shows the 3 again ... God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Three separate entities present at one time, yet the bible clearly acknolwedges the divinity of each.

This statement IS true. But, it has NO bearing on this 'Christ=God'.

Acts 5:3-4 - Shows lieing to The Holy Spirit = lieing to God

What about John 1:1 and John 1:14
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Please see my response to Solo for an explanation of the 'misinterpretation fo these verses.

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

And Christ certainly DID offer that the words, (Word), that He brought to us was NOT HIS OWN, but given Him BY THE FATHER, (God). Christ IS the ONLY BEGOTTEN of God. God's Son.

MEC

 

[Solo]

Solo wrote:


Did Jesus exist as the Word prior to being born of the virgin Mary? Who was he prior to being born of the virgin Mary? Please explain what you mean by "manifested in the person of Jesus, hence he is the Son of God". Was Jesus a person before being manifested in the person of Jesus?


Let me try to answer this Solo.

Christ existed PRIOR to becoming flesh. That He WAS The Word is debatable. The Word IS God. The problem arises when we accept the simple altering of the letters of words offered through scripture. It becomes quite obvious upon just a cursory study of the history of the interpretation of the Bible that those that chose to alter certain letters did so with a pre-concieved notion that Jesus WAS/IS God. If we simply eliminate this pre-conceived notion, there is MUCH more understanding possible.

There WERE NO capital letters in the original Greek that John wrote his gospel using. The capital W in 'Word' was 'ADDED' to the scripture, therefore ALTERING it's original meaning. This becomes apparent when one simply reads the gospel of John WITHOUT the capital W in 'Word'. What we THEN find is a simple recap of the relationship with God and man from the beginning. For Christ SPECIFICALLY stated that the words, (Word), that He offered WAS NOT HIS OWN, but GIVEN Him BY THE FATHER, (God).

So, while I will agree that Christ existed PREVIOUS to 'taking on the flesh', I do NOT agree with the 'trinitarian' explanation of the first three verses of John. That was altered in order to 'push' these verses in a 'particular' directioin. And it seems to have worked pretty well so far as the 'trinitarian' point of view. BUT for these three verses to BE as offered by 'trins', MUCH of the 'other' statements made by John would, by necesity, be negated. I accept the gospel 'as a whole' instead, and DO NOT opt to 'pick and choose' what I discern, based on a 'pre-conceived' notion.

MEC

Since you "accept the gospel 'as a whole' and "DO NOT opt to 'pick and choose' what" you discern "based on a 'pre-conceived' notion", then let me ask you this question.

You have determined with your bias that Jesus being the Word is not God, therefore you deny the written Scripture because it does not align with your bias. That is exactly what you stated above. I suspect that your statement is based more on ignorance than it is a lie, but for the record, you choose what to believe is God's word or not God's word throughout the Scripture. What you fail to do is to recognize the deity that John ascribes to Jesus throughout his gospel.

Here is the question:

You make the statement in your post that "Christ existed PRIOR to becoming flesh", but you deny that Christ, the WORD, is God; and you make the supposition that the WORD was the intent of the Holy Spirit inspiration of writing this section of John to give us the understanding that Christ was merely the thoughts or words of God prior to his becoming flesh. Was Christ a person of being in heaven prior to becoming flesh?

 

[Fnerb]

And Christ certainly DID offer that the words, (Word), that He brought to us was NOT HIS OWN, but given Him BY THE FATHER, (God). Christ IS the ONLY BEGOTTEN of God. God's Son.

MEC

I am just going to post this, a response about the very question. It's from a Lutheran pastor...

----
You are correct that in many places the Lord Jesus claims to be God and is acknowledged by many other witnesses to be true God (for example, Messianic prophecies, John the Baptist, the disciples and apostles throughout the New Testament, demons, and especially God the Father).

The Bible verse that is troubling you is Mark 13:32 (a parallel passage is Matthew 24:36). It is in one sense a startling and unusual statement of our Lord--and he probably said it to catch our attention and lead us to ponder him as the unique God-man in addition to recognizing the need to remain on guard and alert as we anticipate his Second Coming.

I'm not sure that the answer you received (Jesus is simply referring to himself as man) is adequate or all that helpful. Maybe that is why you are still troubled. The Bible makes it very clear that Jesus is both true God and true man, with both natures intimately (and uniquely) united in the one person. So we want to be careful not to "compartmentalize" the two natures so that we refer to Jesus purely as Man at one time and then purely as God at another time. (This kind of error, historically, is known as Nestorianism and has been rejected by the Christian church.)

A better way of expressing this profound truth, and a way that allows ALL Bible verses to remain intact, is to say this: In his state of humiliation, Jesus set aside for a time the full use of his divine powers and prerogatives. He always possessed these powers (and knowledge) but did not make full use of these powers (and knowledge) as he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on the cross, on our behalf.

Remember some basic rules of interpreting the Bible. One is to allow ALL Bible statements to remain as they are, without sacrificing one to allow another to stand. Speaking of Christ possessing but not making use of his omniscience during his state of humiliation allows this and is true to all that the Bible says.

Another basic principle in understanding Bible verses is to look at the context. And when did Jesus make this statement? During the last week of his earthly ministry (what we call Holy Week) just prior to his crucifixion and death. In other words he was very much "humbling" or "emptying" himself as our Sin-bearer, laying aside the use of his divine powers and prerogatives so that he might meet our greatest needs.

We all admit that there are aspects of the union of the two natures in Christ that we are unable to explain fully. And the marvel of his humbling himself for us will remain a truth beyond our ability to explain in detail. God has not asked us to understand or explain all this either. (And he certainly hasn't said we should reject a Bible statement simply because it expresses something beyond our ability to explain fully.)

In other words, I pray that we see this statement of Jesus as an expression of his profound love and self-chosen humiliation for us and walk away impressed with his amazing love--rather than picking an argument with it and walk away grumbling how we are unable to fathom the union of his two natures or grasp the details of his humiliation.
----

 

[scorpia]

I accept the gospel 'as a whole' instead, and DO NOT opt to 'pick and choose' what I discern, based on a 'pre-conceived' notion.

MEC

But there is One who is much evern better, over. and above the gospel - the existence of the Lord God by whom we can all be drawn to the TRUTH (free from any pre-conceived notions of men) should we just seek Him, call on Him, come to Him, and have ourselves be directly under His tutelage about God and of all things.

 

[scorpia]

The Bible makes it very clear that Jesus is both true God and true man, with both natures intimately (and uniquely) united in the one person.
----

This is a big lie and there is no truth in this statement. Should this be true, you guys (mutz, solo, oscar, imagician, Fnerb, wavy, unred, etc.) should have no more arguments you are tackling with at the moment and, also, that you should have been long in unity with this subject matter by this time.

 

[scorpia]

Was Christ a person of being in heaven prior to becoming flesh?

May this one be not a never ending and vaguely answered question by this time.

 

[Imagican]

Solo,

Yes, from my understanding, Christ WAS an individual entity 'previous' to becoming flesh. He WAS The Son of God from His beginning.

Now, a question for you. Upon Christ's return, will there STILL be God in heaven?

In other words, we know that Christ WILL return to this planet, upon that return will He be God 'in the flesh' or will there STILL be God in heaven?

Now, if you state that upon Christ being present on this planet, in the flesh, that God will STILL be in heaven, then I propose that you do NOT believe in 'one God' but TWO. And we have been TOLD that there is but ONE GOD. And ONE SON. Yet we are NEVER offered that The Son IS God. The term 'God The Son' is a 'man-made' term that has NO reference in The Word.

MEC

 

[AVBunyan]

Folks – what is so hard about this? Who taught you that Jesus is not God? You didn’t get this from a King James Bible – maybe the modern versions.

Two references -
John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
The Jews knew exactly what he meant for Jesus took them back to…
Exo 3:14 And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
The God of the universe was in that burning bush and Jesus said he was that “I am†that was in the bush.
And because of that statement by Jesus they were ready to beat his brains out.

Moses was called to lead Israel into the land and so was Jesus.

You who only believe he was just the son of God are in darkness spiritually.
The greatest writers, evangelists, preachers, and missionaries of the past who were used of God all believed the deity of Christ and then some of you are saying you are more enlightened than these people?

Show me anybody who believes or has believed like you do that has done anything for God like the men mentioned above? And you have insight to this great mystery that Jesus was not God and these men didn’t see it?

It was God’s blood shed at Calvary – Acts 20:28; Isa. 45:21. And if Jesus was not God then we all are on our way to a lake of fire!

 

[Solo]

Solo,

Yes, from my understanding, Christ WAS an individual entity 'previous' to becoming flesh. He WAS The Son of God from His beginning.

Now, a question for you. Upon Christ's return, will there STILL be God in heaven?

In other words, we know that Christ WILL return to this planet, upon that return will He be God 'in the flesh' or will there STILL be God in heaven?

Now, if you state that upon Christ being present on this planet, in the flesh, that God will STILL be in heaven, then I propose that you do NOT believe in 'one God' but TWO. And we have been TOLD that there is but ONE GOD. And ONE SON. Yet we are NEVER offered that The Son IS God. The term 'God The Son' is a 'man-made' term that has NO reference in The Word.

MEC

Answer the question that I posted in another post?

Who are the 24 elders and 4 beasts worshiping in these Scripture verses:

8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come. 9 And when those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever, 10 The four and twenty elders fall down before him that sat on the throne, and worship him that liveth for ever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying, 11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Revelation 4:8-11

Who is the Alpha Omega, the beginning and the ending?

7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. 8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
Revelation 1:7-8

12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. Revelation 22:12-16

It is very plain to see in Revelation 4 that the 24 elders and the 4 beasts are worshiping the one which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Lord God Almighty, Jesus Christ.

It is very plain to see in Revelation 1 that the one which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty is Jesus Christ.

It is very plain to see that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last who comes very quickly with His reward with him.

Why would one deny who Jesus is?

 

[wavy]

Actually, Solo, the one being worshipped is God the Father. He is the one sitting upon the throne, and he is distinguished from the Lamb (Jesus):

Revelation 5:6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Kind regards,
Eric.

 

[Solo]

Actually, Solo, the one being worshipped is God the Father. He is the one sitting upon the throne, and he is distinguished from the Lamb (Jesus):

Revelation 5:6And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.
7And He came and took the book out of the right hand of Him who sat on the throne.

Kind regards,
Eric.

Actually Wavy, the Lord God Almighty is the Alpha and Omega, He which is, which was, and which is to come. Read the verses that I gave very, very closely, and you will see that Jesus is the Lord God almighty, just as the Scripture says.

In Revelation 4:8 the four beasts worship the LORD GOD Almighty which was, which is, and is to come.
In Revelation 1:8 Jesus is the Alpha and Omega which cometh in the clouds so that every eye shall see Him, even those that pierced Him; and He is the one which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.
In Revelation 22:16 Jesus is the one who sent HIS angel to testify to the churches. It is Jesus who comes quickly, and His reward is with Him. It is Jesus who is the Alpha and Omega.

What is so difficult to see that Jesus is the one who is, who was, and who is to come?
What is so difficult to see that Jesus is the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End?
What is so difficult to see that Jesus is God Almighty?
Is Jesus the Lamb? Is Jesus the Lord God Almighty? Yes, he is the one who was pierced, he is, he was, and he is to come according to the Scriptures that I posted. Believe it or not, it is your choice.

If you cannot see these things, I would question my salvation very, very soon.