Is Jesus really God?

[Imagican]

jg,

And I offer The Word in that; 'YOU will be judged as you have chosen to judge others'. Beware, my friend. You and others continue to insist that because I do not accept your 'man-made' tradition and belief system that I am NOT saved. Beware. For one day, (I hope and pray), you WILL see that it is not 'my' pride that has 'gotten in the way'.

For straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life and FEW there be that find it.

From your perspective, you would indicate that this saying would be FALSE.

And let me add this; since FEW even FIND it, I propose that EVEN LESS follow it.

Now, I further propose that what 'you' follow is followed by MANY. That in itself is evidence that 'truth' may not be a part of your understanding. For it is SIMPLE to 'follow', but quite difficult to even FIND the Truth, much less follow it.

MEC

 

[Free]

Any man who has faith correctly will be able to see for himself that God’s truth is scattered everywhere. It is found in some Jewish, Christian, Gnostic, Zorastrian, Mystic, and other texts.

Of course there is truth that can be found in every belief system, but you believe things to be true that are contradictory.

Each group accuses the other of error, when they are all in error, because none of them practices having faith correctly in order to make these texts come alive.

And you alone have the grasp of the truth and "practice having faith correctly in order to make these texts come alive"? How very Gnostic of you.

For unless a man’s Judaism, or Christianity, etc. causes him to bear the fruits of the Spirit, it is false.

Gal 5:17 For the desires of the flesh are against the Spirit, and the desires of the Spirit are against the flesh, for these are opposed to each other, to keep you from doing the things you want to do.
Gal 5:18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
...
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,
Gal 5:23 gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
Gal 5:25 If we live by the Spirit, let us also walk by the Spirit.

It is evident that the fruits of the Spirit are made manifest in those who are "led by the Spirit", those who "belong to Christ Jesus". It then follows that 1) one's religion is not the cause of the fruits of the Spirit, and 2) not every religion produces the fruits of the Spirit. More importantly, since it is those who belong to Christ who are led by the Spirit that produce fruit, it becomes absolutely essential to have an understanding about who Christ and the Spirit are.

A false Christ leads to a false spirit, the fruit of which, although it may appear good, is utterly rotten to the core.

That is what Christ meant when he said that he was the way, the truth and the light.

When Christ said that he was the way, the truth and the light, he meant that no one could come to the Father except by him. Again, the obvious implication is that one must believe he is who he said he is. A false Christ leads to a false way, a false truth and a light that only leads to darkness.

For unless a man follows his example, and does the righteous things he did, and speak the holy words he spoke, he can never be saved.

Contrast that with Christ's own words:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jesus himself makes it very clear that who he is and what he will do (ie die and rise again) are absolutely essential to salvation. Many people claim to follow Christ, do what appear to be "righteous things" and say what seem to be "holy words", but this does not save them if the Christ they claim to follow is not the Christ of Holy Scripture.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

You are most certainly mixing gnosticism with Christianity, which is actually just gnosticism. You do this to your peril.

You and others continue to insist that because I do not accept your 'man-made' tradition

You reject our 'man-made' tradition for your 'self-made' doctrine. As I have pointed out many times to many different things you have stated, you are doing the very thing you are accusing others of doing.

And let me add this; since FEW even FIND it, I propose that EVEN LESS follow it.

You can propose that but that is not what Jesus was saying.

Now, I further propose that what 'you' follow is followed by MANY. That in itself is evidence that 'truth' may not be a part of your understanding.

Twisting Scripture does nothing to support your position. It only shows what little argument you have for denying the Trinity. Jesus was differentiating between those that follow the ways of the world and those that follow him.

Of course, if you agree with that, then that would mean you are implying the very thing that you just accused someone else of doing:

"'YOU will be judged as you have chosen to judge others'. Beware, my friend. You and others continue to insist that because I do not accept your 'man-made' tradition and belief system that I am NOT saved."

:-?

 

[PDoug]

Of course there is truth that can be found in every belief system, but you believe things to be true that are contradictory.

Can you give me an example?

And you alone have the grasp of the truth and "practice having faith correctly in order to make these texts come alive"? How very Gnostic of you.

Everyone who has faith correctly, and bears fruit as evidence of it, grasps the truth.

It is evident that the fruits of the Spirit are made manifest in those who are "led by the Spirit", those who "belong to Christ Jesus". It then follows that 1) one's religion is not the cause of the fruits of the Spirit, and 2) not every religion produces the fruits of the Spirit. More importantly, since it is those who belong to Christ who are led by the Spirit that produce fruit, it becomes absolutely essential to have an understanding about who Christ and the Spirit are.

A false Christ leads to a false spirit, the fruit of which, although it may appear good, is utterly rotten to the core.

A religion is authentic if it leads to someone bearing the fruit of the Spirit. This implies that Judaism may be pursued correctly or incorrectly – since the prophets and others have produced fruit by it, but most of Israel hasn’t. This also implies that Christianity may also be pursued correctly or incorrectly – since many in the early Church produced fruit by it, but very few have done so since. The fact of the matter is that Judaism, Christianity, Gnosticism, Mysticism, etc. all come into harmony when one practices the one true religion, because all of these religions bear witness to it. And what is this one true religion? The practice of asking God for things, and believing that you will receive them – which per Christ in Mark 11:22-24, is how someone has faith.

For unless a man follows his example, and does the righteous things he did, and speak the holy words he spoke, he can never be saved.

Contrast that with Christ's own words:

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up,
Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Jesus himself makes it very clear that who he is and what he will do (ie die and rise again) are absolutely essential to salvation. Many people claim to follow Christ, do what appear to be "righteous things" and say what seem to be "holy words", but this does not save them if the Christ they claim to follow is not the Christ of Holy Scripture.

To believe in Christ, means to believe and pursue his instructions, which can only be accomplished by having faith correctly. Absolutely no godly thing can be accomplished by any means, other by having faith correctly. Alternately stated: all godly things must be accomplished by having faith correctly.

Mat 7:22 On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?'
Mat 7:23 And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

You are most certainly mixing gnosticism with Christianity, which is actually just gnosticism. You do this to your peril.

My goodness, which anyone can see in my writings, bears witness to the fact that my religion (which is the religion of the prophets, Jesus, and the early Church) is true. Per Matthew 7:15-20, this cannot be faked.

 

[Imagican]

Free,

Words of 'deception' will ONLY be accepted by those that 'wish' to be deceived.

I have YET to accuse YOU or anyone else of 'being LOST'. So your repeating of what I offered is moot. My warning was to those that continue to insist that 'I' CANNOT be 'saved' for my differing of understanding than that 'taught' by tradtionalists in the 'majority'.

I 'believe' that what I offered is an EXACT description of the scripture in question. Your 'attempt' to discredit it by, at the same time AGREEING with what you 'disagreed with', just goes to show to what extremes you would choose to go to in order to 'try' to discredit my understanding.

And 'I' believe that this is EXACTLY the 'danger' of 'trinity'. It causes SEPARATION rather than unity. It ONLY allows unity to those that choose to ACCEPT it. Yet neither YOU or anyone else is able to 'judge' MY relationship with God OR His Son. And there is NOT a 'single' person that accepts 'trinity' that is ANY BETTER a person or ANY WORSE than I.

Free, I am a simple man with simple needs. I struggle daily JUST like everyone else. Anyone that does NOT 'think' that they are struggling has 'accepted' THIS WORLD instead of God. For those that live by the example offered by Christ WILL BE HATED BY THIS WORLD. But I 'try' to follow where I am led. I have NO choice but to offer that which I understand in the hopes that others too may one day understand. And I experience blessings daily for 'attempting' to offer my obedience.

MEC

 

[Free]

Can you give me an example?

Sure, how about this quote from your post:

"The fact of the matter is that Judaism, Christianity, Gnosticism, Mysticism, etc. all come into harmony when one practices the one true religion, because all of these religions bear witness to it."

That is "New Age" philosophy at its "best". It is contradictory for the obvious reason that Christianity, at its core, contradicts Gnosticism and "Mysticism" at their cores, as well as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

To say that these various religious ideas can come into harmony and be witness to "the one true religion", is shear and utter contradictory nonsense.

And what is this one true religion? The practice of asking God for things, and believing that you will receive them – which per Christ in Mark 11:22-24, is how someone has faith.

That is a religion of self-centeredness which has no place in God. This is why you so easily mix erroneous thoughts and doctrine with Christianity - your religion is one of self-centered works. Christ's atoning sacrifice is utterly meaningless to you. If you understood what Christ did and who hea was, you would see the error of your beliefs.

Jam 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

To believe in Christ, means to believe and pursue his instructions

No, it clearly does not. Christ clearly states that one is saved by believing in his name and his death and resurrection. To believe in Jesus' name does not mean "to believe and pursue his instructions" - that is what it means to follow him.

My goodness, which anyone can see in my writings, bears witness to the fact that my religion (which is the religion of the prophets, Jesus, and the early Church) is true.

On the contrary, your religion contradicts most everything stated in Scripture and is therefore not "the religion of the prophets, Jesus, and the early Church".

And 'I' believe that this is EXACTLY the 'danger' of 'trinity'. It causes SEPARATION rather than unity. It ONLY allows unity to those that choose to ACCEPT it.

This is not a "danger of the Trinity"; it is a danger common to everything that is perceived and believed to be truth. You cannot have truth without it causing separation somewhere. This means that your understanding of God is just as dangerous as trinitarianism.

My warning was to those that continue to insist that 'I' CANNOT be 'saved' for my differing of understanding than that 'taught' by tradtionalists in the 'majority'.

But salvation hinges on who Christ is, as I have shown PDoug. We cannot both have contradictory views and expect that we will both be saved. If you disagree, then Christ can be anything to anyone.

My main point in that last post is that just about all of your arguments against the Trinity can also be applied to your beliefs, which is something you have consistently ignored. In the end, you really have no argument left to stand on.

And I experience blessings daily for 'attempting' to offer my obedience.

As do I. If we are both truly seeking God and wanting to do his will, ever following his leading into wisdom and understanding, we ought both end up in the same place in the end.

 

[Imagican]

Imagican wrote:
My warning was to those that continue to insist that 'I' CANNOT be 'saved' for my differing of understanding than that 'taught' by tradtionalists in the 'majority'.

Free wrote:
But salvation hinges on who Christ is, as I have shown PDoug. We cannot both have contradictory views and expect that we will both be saved. If you disagree, then Christ can be anything to anyone.

My main point in that last post is that just about all of your arguments against the Trinity can also be applied to your beliefs, which is something you have consistently ignored. In the end, you really have no argument left to stand on.

And HERE is 'where' YOU are wrong Free. You pointed out to p, that to 'be saved' is to accept that Christ was 'sent by God and died for our sins'. I accept this WHOLEHEARTEDLY. So you see how this 'trinity' gets 'in the way' of the TRUTH. For NEVER is it stated that I MUST accept Christ AS GOD to 'be saved'. As a matter of FACT, scripture states that I MUST accept Christ AS THE SON OF GOD. So your statement above makes YOU the one that is in a state of confusion. For it is NOT me who denies Christ to BE EXACTLY who He stated that He IS. See how this 'trinity' disallows one to follow The Word? And THAT is EXACTLY what I was talking about. Separation over a 'man-made' doctrine.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

jg,

And I offer The Word in that; 'YOU will be judged as you have chosen to judge others'. Beware, my friend. You and others continue to insist that because I do not accept your 'man-made' tradition and belief system that I am NOT saved. Beware. For one day, (I hope and pray), you WILL see that it is not 'my' pride that has 'gotten in the way'.

For straight is the gate and narrow is the way that leadeth unto life and FEW there be that find it.

From your perspective, you would indicate that this saying would be FALSE.

And let me add this; since FEW even FIND it, I propose that EVEN LESS follow it.

Now, I further propose that what 'you' follow is followed by MANY. That in itself is evidence that 'truth' may not be a part of your understanding. For it is SIMPLE to 'follow', but quite difficult to even FIND the Truth, much less follow it.

MEC

Mec

I'm 100% positive as to where I will be. The judgement seat of Christ....
Unless you come to realize that Jesus Is God, you will be on the great white throne.....

Personally, I have nothing to say to that I have not already said along with countless others....and frankly its sad....

 

[Imagican]

jg,

Please SHOW me where this is offered scripturally. That I am LOST unless I accept 'your trinity'. Show me ONE piece of scripture that states that I MUST accept 'your' definition of Christ in order for HIM to be MY Savior. See where this 'trinity' places YOU? As MY PERSONAL judge. I have warned you repeatedly to beware of your judgement of others. I offer this OUT OF LOVE, not SPITE and sincerely hope that one day you will 'understand' what is being offered to you.

God Bless you my Brother.

MEC

 

[christianbear]

:angel:

if I'M was given to God and Jesus gives himself the same title then would that not make Him one? And back then do we really know what son meant. maybe it meant the same person. Just like Father. Do we really know what father meant back. I God really male or female. I believe that there is only one, because the bible itself has different meanings.

 

[PDoug]

Can you give me an example?

Sure, how about this quote from your post:

"The fact of the matter is that Judaism, Christianity, Gnosticism, Mysticism, etc. all come into harmony when one practices the one true religion, because all of these religions bear witness to it."

That is "New Age" philosophy at its "best". It is contradictory for the obvious reason that Christianity, at its core, contradicts Gnosticism and "Mysticism" at their cores, as well as Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

To say that these various religious ideas can come into harmony and be witness to "the one true religion", is shear and utter contradictory nonsense.

Please give me a specific example. All you are doing is making unsubstantiated claims. E.g. saying that Gnosticism and Mysticism contradict Christianity is like saying Christianity and Judaism contradict one another, because Jesus repeatedly healed people on the Sabbath - which was considered working on the Sabbath by the Jews. Also Christianity does not directly observe the law which the Jews do, yet both religions claim to worship the same God. You look at the surface of things which do not tell you the truth. The truth of God lies deep within things, and people show their lack of faith when they stumble over the surface of things.

And what is this one true religion? The practice of asking God for things, and believing that you will receive them – which per Christ in Mark 11:22-24, is how someone has faith.

That is a religion of self-centeredness which has no place in God. This is why you so easily mix erroneous thoughts and doctrine with Christianity - your religion is one of self-centered works. Christ's atoning sacrifice is utterly meaningless to you. If you understood what Christ did and who hea was, you would see the error of your beliefs.

Jam 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.

How can a man gain righteousness unless he obtains it from God, and how a man obtain righteousness from God by any means other than having faith the way Christ said we should? You condemn the act of having faith as selfishness, when all you have done is shown that you subscribe to righteousness by works, for you condemn the very means God provided for man to obtain righteousness from him.

To believe in Christ, means to believe and pursue his instructions

No, it clearly does not. Christ clearly states that one is saved by believing in his name and his death and resurrection. To believe in Jesus' name does not mean "to believe and pursue his instructions" - that is what it means to follow him.

Please note the following.

John 14

21 Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

John 15

10 If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love.

1 John 2

3 We know that we have come to know him if we obey his commands.

1 John 3

24 Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.

1 John 5

3 This is love for God: to obey his commands. And his commands are not burdensome,

Now, if unless a man believes in Jesus’ name, he is not saved; and unless a man obeys Jesus' commands, he is not saved; and unless a man has faith, he is not saved (Ephesians 2:8-9), doesn’t that mean that a man has to do all of these things in order to be saved? But if no goodness resides within a man (Romans 3:9-12), how can he believe in Jesus’ name or obey Jesus’ commands? Doesn’t the man first have to obtain goodness via having faith correctly (Romans 3:28), and isn't it only after this point that he can righteously believe in Jesus’ name and follow his commands? Believing in Jesus’ name and obeying his commands is one and the same (for they are both produced by the Spirit). Both these things can only be carried out by someone having faith correctly.

PDoug wrote:
My goodness, which anyone can see in my writings, bears witness to the fact that my religion (which is the religion of the prophets, Jesus, and the early Church) is true.

On the contrary, your religion contradicts most everything stated in Scripture and is therefore not "the religion of the prophets, Jesus, and the early Church".

Doesn’t Matthew 7:15-20 say that it is a person’s goodness which bears witness of the authenticity of his religion? It does not say that a man’s religion bears witness of his goodness.

 

[jgredline]

Any man who has faith correctly will be able to see for himself that God’s truth is scattered everywhere. It is found in some Jewish, Christian, Gnostic, Zorastrian, Mystic, and other texts. Each group accuses the other of error, when they are all in error, because none of them practices having faith correctly in order to make these texts come alive.

If a man’s religion cannot save his deeds, how can it save his soul? For unless a man’s Judaism, or Christianity, etc. causes him to bear the fruits of the Spirit, it is false. That is what Christ meant when he said that he was the way, the truth and the light. For unless a man follows his example, and does the righteous things he did, and speak the holy words he spoke, he can never be saved.

Pdoug
The promotion of new age / gnosticsm (another religion) is in violation of the TOS of this site...Stop it now....

 

[PDoug]

Pdoug
The promotion of new age / gnosticsm (another religion) is in violation of the TOS of this site...Stop it now....

How am I promoting new age / Gnosticism? I was discussing certain things in the Bible, then I was accused of subscribing to Gnostic doctrines. I’m not the one driving the discussion about Gnosticism. Are you saying that if a man makes a point and it is supported by scriptures in the Bible, and someone accuses him of embracing precepts from another source, you will censor him? How are you different from the Catholic Church who denounced and tried to censor the Protestants? Exactly what do you censor on this web site? Do you censor Catholics, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists? Also, how is a discussion about precepts labeled Gnostic, the promotion of the Gnostic religion? Have I ever invited people to join a Gnostic movement? I don’t even belong to a Gnostic organization! I have never even had more than a casual online discussion with people who consider themselves Gnostic!

However, if you insist that I narrow my discussions to precepts not found in science or religions that claim allegiance to God, just say so and I’ll leave this web site at once.

 

[Imagican]

While I couldn't 'disagree' MORE with MUCH of what p offers, He HAS offered scriptural reference to his 'notions'. This in itself should be 'viewed' as relevant input EVEN if does NOT agree with 'main-stream' theology.

I didn't KNOW we were here to PROMOTE any 'religion' other than a 'belief' in God and His Son Jesus Christ. EVERY denomination makes statements that are contradictory to 'others'. So long as one accepts Christ AS their Savior and that He WAS/IS The Son of God, wouldn't that make them 'Christians'?

And p's statements ARE relevant to scripture even if 'different' than what 'most' accept. As has been stated 'before', if one's theology is SOUND, then it WILL stand on it's own and be UNSHAKABLE. So WhY threaten one who offers relevant argument so far as scripture is concerned?

MEC

 

[golfjack]

reply

Mec. Are you a Morman? If Jesus only came in the flesh, then I could hang on a cross to be saved.



May God bless, Golfjack

 

[PDoug]

Imagican,

Thanks for your support.

 

[jgredline]

While I couldn't 'disagree' MORE with MUCH of what p offers, He HAS offered scriptural reference to his 'notions'. This in itself should be 'viewed' as relevant input EVEN if does NOT agree with 'main-stream' theology.

I didn't KNOW we were here to PROMOTE any 'religion' other than a 'belief' in God and His Son Jesus Christ. EVERY denomination makes statements that are contradictory to 'others'. So long as one accepts Christ AS their Savior and that He WAS/IS The Son of God, wouldn't that make them 'Christians'?

And p's statements ARE relevant to scripture even if 'different' than what 'most' accept. As has been stated 'before', if one's theology is SOUND, then it WILL stand on it's own and be UNSHAKABLE. So WhY threaten one who offers relevant argument so far as scripture is concerned?

MEC

I stand by what I said....Go back and read his post and you will see what he is promoting on ''his website'' and HERE and is using the 123 forum to further his ajenda.
I will not put up with it....

Further more, I am not surprised to see YOU come to the rescue....but it will get you noplace....If you want to debate the scriptures, by all means, but
DO NOT CONSIDER THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS SCRIPTURE....AS PDOUG DOES.
NOT HERE......

 

[stranger]

PDoug wrote:

Lucifer did not fall because he tried to be God. Lucifer was a part of God and was hence God.

This one belongs in the other religions tread.

blessings: stranger

 

[jgredline]

This one belongs in the other religions tread.

blessings: stranger

Thank you stranger. That is one of the heresys that Pdoug is teaching....and enough is enough........

 

[PDoug]

I stand by what I said....Go back and read his post and you will see what he is promoting on ''his website'' and HERE and is using the 123 forum to further his ajenda.
I will not put up with it....

Further more, I am not surprised to see YOU come to the rescue....but it will get you noplace....If you want to debate the scriptures, by all means, but
DO NOT CONSIDER THE GNOSTIC GOSPELS SCRIPTURE....AS PDOUG DOES.
NOT HERE......

How is what I do any different from someone linking to a Catholic web site that contains Catholic dogma, or someone linking to a Baptist website that uses Baptist doctrines as if they have authority? Is it this web site’s policy that links to independent doctrines are not permissible? Also, there are many, many people who have links to their web sites in which they discuss their views on various things. Why is my web site being singled out?

You declare Gnostic texts heretical on the basis of recommendations made by the Catholic Church, when that same Church declares Protestants heretics as well. Are you therefore saying Protestant heresy is fine but Gnostic heresy is not?

It is clear that you just want to get rid of me. Therefore I’ll leave.

 

[jgredline]

It is clear that you just want to get rid of me. Therefore I’ll leave.

Cool by me.....