Is Jesus really God?

[Imagican]

Re: reply

Mec. Are you a Morman? If Jesus only came in the flesh, then I could hang on a cross to be saved.



May God bless, Golfjack

No Golf, you couldn't. For you are NOT the ONLY begotten Son of God.
And Jesus did NOT 'only come in the flesh'. Jesus was SENT, BY GOD, to offer Salvation to those that believe.

And in anwer to your inquirery, NO, I am NOT a Mormon. I am a 'son of God' through the blood of Jesus Christ.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

J,

I thought that I had already stated that I did NOT agree with p's statements. That he couldn't be 'FURTHER' from the truth in MUCH of what he offered.

What I attempted to 'point out' is that those that have a 'firm foundation' in their beliefs will NOT be swayed by such as his.

You guys are 'something else'. You 'claim' to be 'Christian' but continue to 'prove' that the ONLY love that you have is for those that conform to YOUR standards and belief system, and THIS 'created by men'. It appears as if you have COMPLETELY ignored MUCH of what has been offered by Christ's apostles and Christ Himself concerning love of your brothers and sisters, humility and patience. It seems as if you are awfully QUICK to make 'enemies' of any and all who 'differ' with your views. That seems to be a sign of a 'hardened heart' rather than one refined by the LOVE of God and His Son, (quite similar to the 'mindset' of the Catholics who decided that 'God's will' was to DESTROY or deny ALL who disagreed with their teachings).

You 'seem' to be a relatively learned individual j, instead of 'letting it go to your 'head', try allowing the love of God to infiltrate your heart. THEN, and ONLY then will you find what you are looking for. For those that LOVE God and their neighbors seek what is best for THEM and seek NOT for themselves. love is a 'giving thing' not one of 'taking'.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

J,

I thought that I had already stated that I did NOT agree with p's statements. That he couldn't be 'FURTHER' from the truth in MUCH of what he offered.

What I attempted to 'point out' is that those that have a 'firm foundation' in their beliefs will NOT be swayed by such as his.

Mec
You are missing the point....Do I agree with your beliefs? NO.....
Do I agree with Mutz belief? NO.....

Do I respect you both? Yes...as I have stated in the past.....

Have I given you guys warnings for believing differantly than I do? NO....Why?....Because you guys at least use the scriptures contained in the 66 books of the bible to defend your view....You both are not adding to the word of God.....You simply do not understand them....

As far as catholics go; Do I believe that they are all going to Hell?...NO...I believe most Catholics WILL be in heaven....Are all the people who call themselves ''Christians'' going to heaven? NO, Many will hear the words I never knew you....

You see when one uses the word of God to defend what is contained with in the Word of God...(66 books) e.g. opologetics, bible study...then the word of God will interpret itself and thus become its own commentary....When one starts to introduce Gnostic Gospels and call them scripture, thats adding to scripture and the bible clearly warns against this, then this is crossing the line....and I will not have it...There are to many new believers and folks who come here looking for truth and I will not sit back and let some gnostic put poison into a new believers mind or someone who is weak in faith....

I am simply enforcing the TOS of this site......

You speak of my lacking in love, but it is Love that drives me to do what I must to to protect the integrity of this site......It is certainly not the money....

 

[Imagican]

j,

I concede that there 'may be' the possiblity that 'someone' might be 'swayed' by the posts of p. May be. But dispute, through scripture and understanding, of such posts goes FAR in our ability to 'sway' others through the 'truth' rather than 'force'. It is BENEFICIAL to the strengnthening of 'truth' to debate against that which is 'false'. For to simply deny or avoid lends creedance to it at times. The ENTIRE Protestant movement was 'created' over 'just such situation'. The CC felt that it could 'force' it's views upon others REGARDLESS of their 'freedom' or 'individual interpretation'. And I am NOT promoting 'individual interpretation' as SUCH. Just that even our own God allows us the 'freedom of choice' which the CC would deny, if possible.

You ARE an administrator here so I am NOT 'telling' you what to do. Just offering an opinion. So PLEASE, by ALL MEANS, follow 'your' heart and do what you are 'led' to do. And PLEASE do NOT think for 'one second' that I have attempted in ANY WAY to usurp 'your authority'.

I DO respect your opinions and offerings. And I AM aware that what 'p' offered are NOT in line with the TOS of this website. I simply find it 'interesting' to hear such 'stuff' and find little other means in which to debate it and WELCOME it when the opportunity arises. (You DID notice that EVERYONE of this thread QUICKLY recognized what 'p' offered and refuted it IMMEDIATELY, right?)

I commend you on the 'work' that you DO here. You have been a 'Blessing' to this forum and I KNOW that it MUST be a 'labor of love' rather than financial gain, (he he he). So, keep up the 'good work' and the 'good fight' and may God Bless you and yours.

MEC

 

[Jay T]

I believe that Jesus Christ, is God, manifested in a human body, to show us how to live a Victorious life, overcoming sin, thereby defeating satan's claim that NO MAN can keep the commandments of God.
Jesus set for us an example, as to how a Christian is to live, while on this earth.

I believe that Christ, as God, who created this earth, and the heavens above.

Christ was the God who wrote out all 10 commandments on Mt Sinai, with His very own finger.

 

[Imagican]

Not to dispute your 'beliefs' J, but if it were INDEED God, (in the flesh), then He was by NO MEANS a 'man'. So your premise is a bit askew. For you stated that you believe that God 'became' flesh in order to defeat Satan's claims. That would be GOD defeating Satan's claims rather than the claim being defeated through 'truth'.

Do you believe also that Satan had the audacity to 'tempt' God Himself by offering Him something that He ALREADY possessed?

MEC

 

[jgredline]

When John wrote his first epistle, a heretical teaching was circulating in the church to the effect that Jesus was not a man, that Jesus was ''not God''....Very much like today...In fact the Gospel of John was to combat the gnostics of the day as well.... This heresy became known as docetism. So serious was this denial of truth about Christ, that John could say it was a doctrine of the antichrist

“By this you know the Spirit of God every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichristâ€Â.

The apostle John understood that to deny Jesus’ true humanity and deity was to deny something at the very heart of Christianity, so that no one who denied that Jesus had come in the flesh was sent from God....

If you take the time to systematically stsudy New Testament, you will see several reasons why Jesus had to be fully man if he was going to be the Messiah and earn our salvation....In fact this would be a good time to look at some of those things....

Would anybody like to take a shot at what some of those things are....?

 

[Imagican]

When John wrote his first epistle, a heretical teaching was circulating in the church to the effect that Jesus was not a man, that Jesus was ''not God''....Very much like today...In fact the Gospel of John was to combat the gnostics of the day as well.... This heresy became known as docetism. So serious was this denial of truth about Christ, that John could say it was a doctrine of the antichrist

“By this you know the Spirit of God every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and every spirit which does not confess Jesus is not of God. This is the spirit of antichristâ€Â.

The apostle John understood that to deny Jesus’ true humanity and deity was to deny something at the very heart of Christianity, so that no one who denied that Jesus had come in the flesh was sent from God....

If you take the time to systematically stsudy New Testament, you will see several reasons why Jesus had to be fully man if he was going to be the Messiah and earn our salvation....In fact this would be a good time to look at some of those things....

Would anybody like to take a shot at what some of those things are....?

And you HONESTLY believe that the scripture above IS stating that ANYONE that does not confess who YOU believe Christ to be is anti-Christ?

What I read above would indicate that 'trinity' is anti-Christ. For 'trinitarians' are the ones that appear to deny that Christ came in the flesh and instead insist that it was God.

I KNOW that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. No doubts in my mind or heart. And I KNOW that He was SENT by God. Yet this scripture above says NOTHING of a 'need' to believe in some 'man-made' doctrine in order avoid being called 'anti-Christ'.

Just more 'man-made' misrepresentation of scripture, IMHO. For what you have offered above sounds MORE like it would pertain to 'trinitarianism' than those that DO accept that Christ came in the flesh.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

And you HONESTLY believe that the scripture above IS stating that ANYONE that does not confess who YOU believe Christ to be is anti-Christ?

What I read above would indicate that 'trinity' is anti-Christ. For 'trinitarians' are the ones that appear to deny that Christ came in the flesh and instead insist that it was God.

I KNOW that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. No doubts in my mind or heart. And I KNOW that He was SENT by God. Yet this scripture above says NOTHING of a 'need' to believe in some 'man-made' doctrine in order avoid being called 'anti-Christ'.

Just more 'man-made' misrepresentation of scripture, IMHO. For what you have offered above sounds MORE like it would pertain to 'trinitarianism' than those that DO accept that Christ came in the flesh.

MEC

Mec
I rest my Case.....Here is a perfect example of why John wrote his epistles (plural)
iT Was to confront folk like YOU who were teaching / preaching that Jesus was not God.

 

[francisdesales]

I KNOW that Jesus Christ came in the flesh. No doubts in my mind or heart. And I KNOW that He was SENT by God. Yet this scripture above says NOTHING of a 'need' to believe in some 'man-made' doctrine in order avoid being called 'anti-Christ'.

Imagican,

John was addressing Docetists, those Gnostics who taught that Jesus was some sort of divine figure who APPEARED to have come in the flesh, but hadn't. There were a variety of opinions on how this came about. Some have Judas as the actual man on the cross. Some have Jesus appearing to be on the cross, but not actually suffering. John makes it clear that Jesus was indeed a man - AND agreeing with the Docetists that Jesus was MORE than a man. Jesus was not only sent by God, but He was indeed divine Himself. Thus, John is defending the dual nature of Christ in these passages.

Regards

 

[jgredline]

Thus, John is defending the dual nature of Christ in these passages.

Exactly my point.

 

[francisdesales]

Another interesting point regarding 1 John...

I have been reading the Homilies on the First Epistle of St. John, written by St. Augustine.

Here is something you might find interesting...

"God is Love; but God who comes from God. For you find in the epistle the two formulas: "love is from God" and "love is God". Only of the Father does the Scripture NOT mean to say that He is from God. But when you hear "from God", either the Son is to be understood or the Holy Spirit.

It is amazing to me what these Fathers wrote, considering they did not have Bible software! The Spirit must certainly have been strong in them and their writings. Perhaps I'll eventually get to his writings "On the Trinity", and we can discuss that more. But his writings on 1 John are pretty good, esp. on the subject of Love.

Regards

 

[Easyrider]

THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7).
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25;Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds
(Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as
God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew
14:33; 28:9).
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God can do that). (Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God's Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

 

[Jay T]

THE DEITY OF JESUS CHRIST

1. Jesus existed in the beginning (John 1:1; Philip 2:6; Rev. 19:13; Micah 5:2).
2. He was with God (John 1:1).
3. He is God, the Son (John 1:1; Rom. 9:5; Heb. 1:8, 10; I John 5:20).
4. He is God manifest in the flesh (John 20:28; I Tim. 3:16; Col. 2:9; Acts 20:28; Heb. 1:8).
5. He is God foretold (Isaiah 9:6; Psalm 45:6).
6. He is Immanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:23).
7. He is the true God (I John 5:20 with Titus 2:13; Romans 9:5).
8. He is the great God (Titus 2:13).
9. He is God our Savior (II Peter 1:1).
10. He existed in the form of God before His incarnation and was equal with God the Father (Philippians 2:5-7).
11. He is the only wise God (Jude 25).
12. He is omnipotent over disease. (Matthew 8:1-4; Luke 4:39)
13. He is omnipotent over demons. (Matthew 8:16-17; Luke 4:35)
14. He is omnipotent over nature. ((Matthew 8:26)
15. He is omnipotent over death. (Luke 7:14-15; John 11:25)
16. He is omniscient, knowing the hearts of the Pharisees. (Matthew 12:25;Luke 5:22; 6:8; 7:39-40)
17. He knew the thoughts of the scribes. (Matthew 9:3-4)
18. He knew the history of the Samaritan woman. (John 4:24)
19. He is omnipresent. (Matthew 18:20; 28:20; John 3:13; 14:20)
20. He was worshiped as God by the angels (Hebrews 1:6); worshiped as God by the wise men (Matthew 2:2); worshiped as God by the shepherds
(Luke 2:15); worshiped as God by a ruler (Matthew 9:18); worshiped as
God by Thomas (John 20:28); worshiped as God by the apostles (Matthew
14:33; 28:9).
21. He forgives sins. (Mark 2:5)
22. He saves (only God can do that). (Matthew 18:11; John 10:28).
23. He judges. (John 5:22)
24. Paul, Peter, Jude, James, and John called Him God. (Galatians 2:20; 1 Peter 3:22; Jude 25; James 2:1; I John 5:20; Revelation 1:18; 19:16)
25. He is God's Son, who was sent to bring us eternal life. (John 3:16)
26. He arose from death in the flesh (John 20:26-28; Luke 24:39-43; I John 4:2-3).
27. One with the Father (John 10:30).

OK....now show, the scriptures, pertaining to the human side of Jesus Christ.

Since it is the human side of Jesus Christ that was set up to be 'our' example...on how to overcome sin, as He did......

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

OK....now show, the scriptures, pertaining to the human side of Jesus Christ.

Since it is the human side of Jesus Christ that was set up to be 'our' example...on how to overcome sin, as He did......

Perhaps best suited in a different thread?

 

[Jay T]

Perhaps best suited in a different thread?

The reason I mentioned it is because the person only presented one side of Jesus Christ, and I wanted to see if they knew the other side of Christ.

Remembering that there are 2 sides to every story, right ?

 

[Imagican]

Boy JayT,

You make it tough on a 'poor, simple Cracker' like me.

Firstly, I would debate MUCH of your ENTIRE post concerning 'worshiped AS God'. For the scriptures do NOT say what YOU say they do.

Second, where do you want me to START?

Christ was born in the flesh. Christ DIED in the flesh. Christ was TEMPTED by Satan. Christ ate, drank, and I'll BET you that He 'relieved Himself' as well. He SLEPT, He bathed, He Breathed, He WEPT, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,,. I don't even THINK for a second that I 'need' offer scripture that PROVES this. I think that ANY and EVERYONE that understands Him KNOWS that ALL that I have offered IS FACT.

MEC

 

[Jay T]

Boy JayT,

You make it tough on a 'poor, simple Cracker' like me.

Firstly, I would debate MUCH of your ENTIRE post concerning 'worshiped AS God'. For the scriptures do NOT say what YOU say they do.

Second, where do you want me to START?

Christ was born in the flesh. Christ DIED in the flesh. Christ was TEMPTED by Satan. Christ ate, drank, and I'll BET you that He 'relieved Himself' as well. He SLEPT, He bathed, He Breathed, He WEPT, etc, etc, etc,,,,,,,,,,,. I don't even THINK for a second that I 'need' offer scripture that PROVES this. I think that ANY and EVERYONE that understands Him KNOWS that ALL that I have offered IS FACT.

MEC

Yes, Jesus went thru EVERYTHING that human being must go thru in this life on earth.

His mission was to prove satan's implication wrong, concerning that humans cannot keep all the commandments of God.

And thru the power of grace, which God the Father freeely supplies to each and every individual on earth, Jesus proved that a human being 'CAN' keep the commandments of God.

Jesus did all this as an 'example' for us to follow.

 

[Free]

His mission was to prove satan's implication wrong, concerning that humans cannot keep all the commandments of God.

And thru the power of grace, which God the Father freeely supplies to each and every individual on earth, Jesus proved that a human being 'CAN' keep the commandments of God.

Uh, no.

 

[Imagican]

While I would CERTAINLY hesitate to state that WE can be 'sinless' AS Christ, I will CERTAINLY state that we CAN become FORGIVEN for our sins THROUGH Jesus Christ. And the 'closer' we develope a relationship with God THROUGH Christ, the CLOSER to a 'sinless people' we become.

We too ARE children of God. There is ONLY ONE BEGOTTEN, the Son of God and this CERTAINLY gave Him an 'advantage', if you will. But I can ASSURE you that the 'sins' that WE commit ARE mirade and MANY compared to Paul. For we have the words of PAUL Himself offering that he obtained a 'relationship' that allowed God to reveal all but ALL that is in heaven and earth. This could NOT be acheived by simply 'asking for forgiveness'. One would HAVE to become vitrually 'sinless' to reach such a pinacle.

I know, many will accuse me of offering that which is NOT TRUE. But, having 'tasted' that which Paul attested to, I, for one, can state with utter assurance that we CAN, (if we so devote our lives to God), become ALMOST 'sinless'. Our ACTIONS can CERTAINLY become 'sinless' if we DO what it is that we have been COMMANDED. Our thoughts, on the other hand, that IS questionable.

But I can ALSO offer that; that which is IMPOSSIBLE for man, is NOT impossible for God. And we have been assured that we will NOT be tempted beyond our ability to OVERCOME. That many 'seem' to fall into a category OTHER THAN this which has been PROMISED by NO means takes away from the truth.

Christ NEVER doubted His Father until the SECOND before He died. His FAITH allowed Him to BE 'sinless'. Trusting in God and following HIS WILL was what allowd Christ the POWER to overcome temptation. WE TOO are loved by God. We TOO ARE the children of God.

Anyone that denies this has placed an obstruction in their paths that will NOT allow them to obtain that which HAS BEEN PROMISED. For when one denies that which IS possible, they, at this point, will NOT EVEN TRY to accomplish it. That, my friends, is where FAITH plays it's MOST IMPORTANT role. In that, for those that TRULY HAVE FAITH, NOTHING IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM.

We were TOLD that there would come others AFTER Christ that would do GREATER WORKS that those acomplished by HIM. Do you BELIEVE this? If not, then I would suggest that your faith 'wavers' and that fasting and prayer would be 'in order'. Fasting and praying that God WOULD reveal the 'truth of this' to us.

You can't 'say' that you believe in The Word WITHOUT BELIEVING IN IT. And that means ALL of it. For do THIS is to simply 'play the game' without ever truly believing in the 'validity of IT'.

I am NOT sinless. FAR from it. But I truly believe that one that devoted ONE HUNDRED PERCENT to their 'faith' could acheive ANYTHING that they TRY. For we HAVE been TOLD that one with the 'faith of a mustard seed could tell a mountain to MOVE and it WOULD BE SO. Now the question is; HOW does one OBTAIN such 'faith'?

MEC