Is Judaism based on earlier religions?

[wavy]

I forgot to add contrary to what the article suggests that just as the bible has its fair share of crudity, violence, etc., so does the variety of ANE literature have its high points. Much of the most beautiful and ethically pure ancient literature I've ever read comes from outside the bible.

Btw, I'll check that out on your site soon. :D

Finis,
Eric

 

[cyberjosh]

I understand your POV. I'm not really up for trying to disagree with you. I just wanted to present the alternate view. Just don't hate this apologist. ;-)

~Josh

 

[wavy]

I understand your POV. I'm not really up for trying to disagree with you. I just wanted to present the alternate view. Just don't hate this apologist. ;-)

lol, done deal. :D

But I'm all for balance, as I stated earlier in the thread. No, we shouldn't blur the lines of distinction between the religion of Israel and other religions, but at the same time we shouldn't take the other extreme either because that reflects the theological concerns of, well...theologians! and ignores the reality that what we have in ancient Israel are a real people in a real setting. Rather than defending the bible, apologists are rather often guilty of propagating the imaginations of their own hearts.


Finis,
E.L.B.

 

[cyberjosh]

Thanks Eric.

Btw, I'll check that out on your site soon.

Great, thanks for taking the time to do that. I'll admit it's probably not the most exciting thing you'll ever hear, and I was a little nervous and soft-spoken at first since I had never spoken in front of a crowd in a formal setting before (luckily a small crowd :D), but I tried to draw points for my sermon from both the OT and NT and weave together a theme that I saw, that was primarily a theological emphasis on seeking God, and its accompanying terminology of "one thing" that I noticed three different places in Scripture. I enjoyed preaching that sermon though, and although I know you really have no faith basis to relate to the heart of the sermon I hope you can see the sincerity of Christians to be real with themselves and with God by taking their faith seriously and not nominally (or hypocritically). I know even unbelievers appreciate the virtues of Christians who indeed show sincerity, love, and compassion as Christ instructed us to have for others.

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vince]

Wavy, you're making the assumption that if a monotheistic religion existed before Judaism, then Judaism MUST have been derived from it. Since God revealed Himself to many people before the beginning of Judaism, it is no surprise that traces of truth remain in other faiths. Man's first religion, before Judaism, was monotheistic, and that religion steadily became more corrupt.

 

[Joe67]

Josh 24:2-4
2 And Joshua said unto all the people, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Your fathers dwelt on the other side of the flood in old time, even Terah, the father of Abraham, and the father of Nachor: and they served other gods.

3 And I took your father Abraham from the other side of the flood, and led him throughout all the land of Canaan, and multiplied his seed, and gave him Isaac.

4 And I gave unto Isaac Jacob and Esau: and I gave unto Esau mount Seir, to possess it; but Jacob and his children went down into Egypt. KJV

Joe

 

[Sparkey]

Not only do some dispute the fact that the Holy Spirit inspired the written word, the Holy writ - they also accept no evidence that the Holy Spirit is personally involved with men and women today. The Lord has declared that on the day that one sets his/her whole heart, whole mind on Him and seeks Him with all their strength, on that day, He shall reveal Himself to them.

Then they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul; and whoever would not seek the LORD God of Israel was to be put to death, whether small or great, whether man or woman.

Then they took an oath before the LORD with a loud voice, with shouting and trumpets and rams' horns.

And all Judah rejoiced at the oath, for they had sworn with all their heart and sought Him with all their soul; and He was found by them, and the LORD gave them rest all around.

- For the eyes of the LORD run to and fro throughout the whole earth, to show Himself strong on behalf of [those] whose heart [is] loyal to Him. In this you have done foolishly; therefore from now on you shall have wars."

Psa 119:2 KJV - Blessed [are] they that keep his testimonies, [and that] seek him with the whole heart.

Psa 119:10 KJV - With my whole heart have I sought thee: O let me not wander from thy commandments.

Psa 119:34 KJV - Give me understanding, and I shall keep thy law; yea, I shall observe it with [my] whole heart.

Psa 119:58 KJV - I intreated thy favour with [my] whole heart: be merciful unto me according to thy word.

Psa 119:69 KJV - The proud have forged a lie against me: [but] I will keep thy precepts with [my] whole heart.

Psa 119:145 KJV - KOPH. I cried with [my] whole heart; hear me, O LORD: I will keep thy statutes.

Psa 138:1 KJV - [[[A Psalm] of David.]] I will praise thee with my whole heart: before the gods will I sing praise unto thee.

Jer 3:10 KJV - And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Jer 24:7 KJV - And I will give them an heart to know me, that I [am] the LORD: and they shall be my people, and I will be their God: for they shall return unto me with their whole heart.
_______________________________________________________

The Scribe had just asked what commandment was the greatest. We can tell that the Scribe (quoted below) had been listening and paying attention to the teachings of the Master, our Christ Jesus:

Mar 12:33 KJV - "...And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love [his] neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

- So the scribe said to Him, "Well [said], Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He. And to love Him with all the heart, with all the understanding, with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love one's neighbor as oneself, is more than all the whole burnt offerings and sacrifices."

Now when Jesus saw that he answered wisely, He said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." But after that no one dared question Him.

Then Jesus answered and said, while He taught in the temple, "How [is it] that the scribes say that the Christ is the Son of David?

For David himself said by the Holy Spirit: 'The LORD said to my Lord, "Sit at My right hand, Till I make Your enemies Your footstool." ' [see Psalm 110:1]

Therefore David himself calls Him 'Lord'; how is He [then] his Son?" And the common people heard Him gladly.

Then He said to them in His teaching, "Beware of the scribes, who desire to go around in long robes, [love] greetings in the marketplaces,

the best seats in the synagogues, and the best places at feasts,

who devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. These will receive greater condemnation."

Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. And many [who were] rich put in much.

Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans.

So He called His disciples to [Himself] and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;

for they all put in out of their abundance, but she out of her poverty put in all that she had, her whole livelihood."

Many will suppose that the Lord God has not spoken to the Patriarchs as the bible (the word of God) states. Many will suppose that the Holy Spirit does not speak to any today whatsoever. They imagine a distant and uncaring god who seldom, if ever, interacts with its creation. Our new covenant with the God of Moses, the God of Abraham, the God of Jacob, the God of Israel Himself includes His promise to write His word upon our (your) heart. If people can not see visible living evidence of this (the living word of God) in our hearts and lives ---> how can we expect them to see the "dry"?

Jesus has correctly pointed to the trouble within the church itself and even unbelievers can clearly see the motives of some "preachers" who seek only to gain notoriety and fame and the respect of man while they strive toward the sole purpose of enriching their bank accounts. The bible likens believers to sheep and even the heathen can see the folly of following blindly those who profane the very Name of Jesus. Can we who believe think that the skeptics fail to have good reason to be skeptical?

We are told to seek God. To seek Him with our whole heart. To become whole-hearted (because we are not) and whole minded as we seek Him is another way of saying the very same thing. Part of that process involves sanctification and putting on His righteousness and His integrity and throwing down all those things that interfere so that we CAN become more like Him. We have to make room in our busy lives for our God and allow Him to clean the inside of the cup!

It is my firm belief that we are today in a time where it is critical to hear and act on this simple message of truth -AND- as believers do this their words and their lives themselves become more credible. As we draw nigh unto God, He also draws close to us in a visible, discernible, very real way. It is then and only then that our words are fully anointed by the Holy Spirit and we can say that all of our prayers are answered and that we pray according to His will and purpose. Simply put, there are too many "believers" (so called) who make a pretense of Christianity (following Jesus in truth) and settle for religion only. We can not be dismayed by the fact that there are doubters in the world. Where is the power of the gospel? Is it not found in the resurrected life that is promised unto those who have put off the old and accepted the new in truth?

When asked, "Is Judaism based on earlier religions?" my reply isn't so much to challenge the idea presented but to consider how it could be that so many believe thus. It is because both Jews and Christians fail in their duty to God (He has bought us with a price precious, and we are His possession after all).

• I'll close with the antithesis of whole mindedness found in the first chapter of the book of James:

If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.

But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; [he is] a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

• Jam 1:5-8 (NKJV)

~Sparrow

 

[whirlwind]

Consider that the creation story, along with God's instructions were all held by the one whom the voice of God spoke with in the garden.

Consider too that Cain was privy to this same information before he was exiled. When he "went out from the presence of the LORD" his memory didn't stop and...he lived many, many years. "Cain knew his wife" and "he builded a city."

I believe Cain and his wife, the great whore, laid the foundation of the great city Babylon. It was done by corrupting God's Word...twisting it into writings like Gilgamesh. Because God's word wasn't the first WRITTEN account doesn't mean it wasn't the first account.

 

[wavy]

Wavy, you're making the assumption that if a monotheistic religion existed before Judaism, then Judaism MUST have been derived from it. Since God revealed Himself to many people before the beginning of Judaism, it is no surprise that traces of truth remain in other faiths. Man's first religion, before Judaism, was monotheistic, and that religion steadily became more corrupt.

No, I have not made that 'assumption' at all. That the monotheism of Israel evolved out of the polytheistic religions of the ANE is what the results of historical-critical investigation into the religion of Israel have yielded.

And it can be explained historically and philosophically how monotheism developed from polytheism quite easily; easier than trying to explain how religion was once monotheistic and suddenly polytheism spontaneously and uniformly spread all over the world and became the norm.

You, on the other hand, are the one making the assumption that your particular religion is both true and original, which you must first demonstrate before you judge my 'assumptions' against it.


Finis,
Eric

 

[wavy]

Consider that the creation story, along with God's instructions were all held by the one whom the voice of God spoke with in the garden.

Consider too that Cain was privy to this same information before he was exiled. When he "went out from the presence of the LORD" his memory didn't stop and...he lived many, many years. "Cain knew his wife" and "he builded a city."

I believe Cain and his wife, the great whore, laid the foundation of the great city Babylon. It was done by corrupting God's Word...twisting it into writings like Gilgamesh. Because God's word wasn't the first WRITTEN account doesn't mean it wasn't the first account.

Are you speaking symbolically about Cain and Babylon?

But traditio-historically it can be proven that the biblical flood story is secondary. It presupposes too many Babylonian elements in the story.

Finis,
Eric

 

[whirlwind]

Consider that the creation story, along with God's instructions were all held by the one whom the voice of God spoke with in the garden.

Consider too that Cain was privy to this same information before he was exiled. When he "went out from the presence of the LORD" his memory didn't stop and...he lived many, many years. "Cain knew his wife" and "he builded a city."

I believe Cain and his wife, the great whore, laid the foundation of the great city Babylon. It was done by corrupting God's Word...twisting it into writings like Gilgamesh. Because God's word wasn't the first WRITTEN account doesn't mean it wasn't the first account.

Are you speaking symbolically about Cain and Babylon?

But traditio-historically it can be proven that the biblical flood story is secondary. It presupposes too many Babylonian elements in the story.

Finis,
Eric

No. I literally believe Cain laid the foundation for the great city Babylon...false religion.

Consider that it is the Babylonian story that is taken from the true Genesis account. Who would know better than Cain? As I said, because the Babylonians first wrote the twisted version doesn't mean their account happened before the literal event.

 

[Vince]

That was a good point about Cain knowing Divine Truth, and then corrupting it later after he went away from God.

 

[Lance_Iguana]

Consider that the creation story, along with God's instructions were all held by the one whom the voice of God spoke with in the garden.

Consider too that Cain was privy to this same information before he was exiled. When he "went out from the presence of the LORD" his memory didn't stop and...he lived many, many years. "Cain knew his wife" and "he builded a city."

I believe Cain and his wife, the great whore, laid the foundation of the great city Babylon. It was done by corrupting God's Word...twisting it into writings like Gilgamesh. Because God's word wasn't the first WRITTEN account doesn't mean it wasn't the first account.

Are you speaking symbolically about Cain and Babylon?

But traditio-historically it can be proven that the biblical flood story is secondary. It presupposes too many Babylonian elements in the story.

Finis,
Eric

No. I literally believe Cain laid the foundation for the great city Babylon...false religion.

Consider that it is the Babylonian story that is taken from the true Genesis account. Who would know better than Cain? As I said, because the Babylonians first wrote the twisted version doesn't mean their account happened before the literal event.

Where is the gate with the giants guarding the garden with flaming swords?

 

[wavy]

That was a good point about Cain knowing Divine Truth, and then corrupting it later after he went away from God.

Unfortunately there's no evidence for it, and Cain didn't build Babylon; in fact, I rarely hear something so ludicrous.


Finis,
Eric

 

[whirlwind]

That was a good point about Cain knowing Divine Truth, and then corrupting it later after he went away from God.

Unfortunately there's no evidence for it, and Cain didn't build Babylon; in fact, I rarely hear something so ludicrous.


Finis,
Eric

Your avatar does say....."not a Christian." So, I don't expect you to see or hear clearly yet....perhaps soon though.

 

[jasoncran]

doesnt genesis say that nimrod built babylon? i recall that the tower of babel was built in that area. as far as archeology abram was from hur witch was part of sumeria that had early babylon as one of the cities in the kingdom.

jason

 

[whirlwind]

Are you speaking symbolically about Cain and Babylon?

But traditio-historically it can be proven that the biblical flood story is secondary. It presupposes too many Babylonian elements in the story.

Finis,
Eric

No. I literally believe Cain laid the foundation for the great city Babylon...false religion.

Consider that it is the Babylonian story that is taken from the true Genesis account. Who would know better than Cain? As I said, because the Babylonians first wrote the twisted version doesn't mean their account happened before the literal event.

Where is the gate with the giants guarding the garden with flaming swords?

"Ret" had an interesting post on that subject Lance and I agree. I have to paraphrase but the gate is our entry to heaven..the garden, paradise. We must pass through the flaming swords. We must be judged by the One "Which hath the sharp sword with two edges."

• Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

 

[whirlwind]

doesnt genesis say that nimrod built babylon? i recall that the tower of babel was built in that area. as far as archeology abram was from hur witch was part of sumeria that had early babylon as one of the cities in the kingdom.

jason

Consider that in that beginning history Sargon of Akkad, is...Cain. The name Sargon means "King Cain." But, I'm speaking about Cain laying the foundation of the great city Babylon which is spiritual. It is false religion. That great city is alive and well today.

 

[Vince]

Wavy, you dismiss various arguments as "ludicrous," yet you offer no historical evidence to back your statement.

There is no historical or scientific evidence against the Bible. Skeptics start with a wrong conclusion, use wrong methods to head in the wrong direction, and then have to rely on scorn to cover their lack of evidence.

 

[whirlwind]

Wavy, you dismiss various arguments as "ludicrous," yet you offer no historical evidence to back your statement.

There is no historical or scientific evidence against the Bible. Skeptics start with a wrong conclusion, use wrong methods to head in the wrong direction, and then have to rely on scorn to cover their lack of evidence.