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Is man capable of both good and evil ?

G

Grubal Muruch

Member
According to the Calvinist view of Christianity, man before regeneration is, depraved, sinful,evil, etc,. They believe he is, incapable of reaching out to their Creator. Or, God forbid, placing their faith in Christ as their Savior . And yet if we go back to the "Garden of Eden" we find that, Adam chose (of his freewill) to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus, this opened the eyes of both, Adam and Eve. They were now aware of their nakedness.

They had a "choice" from that moment on, to do good or to do evil (They were aware of both because, the tree offered up that dual knowledge.) When they bore their first children, Cain, "chose" to do evil and killed Abel. Abel on the other hand had previously pleased God with his offering and was, by all accounts a good man.

Man is not only, able to choose evil, he is able to choose to do good as well. We see that in our every day life's. God's Word states that, "ALL of our righteousness's are as filthy rags before God." And that stands true in our "unregenerate" state. In that state, we cannot please God. In the Spiritual realm God only excepts sinless perfection. (of which we all fall short.)

This does not mean we as humans can't do good things. "as well as bad" We,(before regeneration) are capable of "worldly works" of good. But so far as God's Grace is concerned, these, "works" cannot earn you, God's Grace. His mercy is granted to those who come, by faith, through the Atonement of Christ on the cross. It's totally God's Grace by which we're saved, not of our works. (which are as, filthy rags before God.)

So you see, it's true that we CAN do good works in the world, but those works CANNOT get us Saved by Grace. By the worlds standard, there is good and bad (evil) By God's standard , there can only be sinless perfection, and that is acquired only through the free gift of God's Grace (through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.) (John 3:16 states it this way,) "For God so LOVED the world (ALL sinners included) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not Perish but have everlasting life."(Ephesians 2:8-9 states,) "For by Grace you have been saved through faith,and that not of yourselves;it is the gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Romans 10:9) "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:13 states: "For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Those versus are not just speaking to a small portion of "elect" but is offered to ALL who will receive God's free gift of Grace...





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AKJVReader said:
So i assume you aren't a Calvinist. If so that is good. I have seen how Calvinism is very wrong on doctrines.
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I am, diffidently "NOT" a follower of Mr. John Calvin nor Jacobus Arminius. I think it best to trust in God's Grace and reading and studying His Word, The Bible. Somehow we get into problems trusting this guy or the other guy...
 
AKJVReader said:
Amen. There was a teaching about Calvin at Contending for Truth by Dr. Scott Johnson
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Some did not live long, after disagreeing with his theory's (In his time) Calvin was not a good guy. Very "intolerant" to certain people who didn't go along with his "heresies." I think anyone who has an interest in "Calvinism" should read up on the history of it's founder, (John Calvin) then see if they want to listen, and be influenced by such a bad guy...
 
Be interesting to make a list of all the Calvinists throughout our Christian history, curious to see how many of them we listen to, their teaching, devotionals and such..

turnorburn
 
That didn't take long here's a few..

Famous Calvinists
FAMOUS CALVINISTS OF THE PAST:
Arthur W. Pink (evangelist & scholar)
Benjamin Keach (1689 Baptist Confession)
Charles Spurgeon (Baptist preacher)
George Whitefield (evangelist & preacher)
John Calvin (preacher & Bible scholar)
John Foxe (Foxe's Book Of Martyrs) John Gill (renowned theologian)
John Knox (founder of Presbyterianism) Jonathan Edwards (evangelist)
Martin Luther (Protestant Reformer)
Matthew Henry (bible commentator)
William Carey (missionary)


Famous Calvinists

turnorburn
 
Luther wasn't a Calvinist.

Luther believed that one could lose salvation and Luther rejected the idea of Limited Atonement. The theologies of Luther and Calvin are similar...but not at all the same. Having been to a Calvinist church for 5 years and now part of a Lutheran church...I'm hearing the differences.
 
turnorburn said:
Be interesting to make a list of all the Calvinists throughout our Christian history, curious to see how many of them we listen to, their teaching, devotionals and such..

turnorburn
Click to expand...

Sometimes the majority is wrong...Sometimes the minority is... I'd rather read and study God's Word on my own or with a Bible believing friend than listen to a bunch of peoples "opinions" and false teachings. Even if they are "supposed" Bible scholars... But that's just me...
 
Grubal Muruch said:
According to the Calvinist view of Christianity, man before regeneration is, depraved, sinful,evil, etc,. They believe he is, incapable of reaching out to their Creator. Or, God forbid, placing their faith in Christ as their Savior . And yet if we go back to the "Garden of Eden" we find that, Adam chose (of his freewill) to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus, this opened the eyes of both, Adam and Eve. They were now aware of their nakedness.

They had a "choice" from that moment on, to do good or to do evil (They were aware of both because, the tree offered up that dual knowledge.) When they bore their first children, Cain, "chose" to do evil and killed Abel. Abel on the other hand had previously pleased God with his offering and was, by all accounts a good man.

Man is not only, able to choose evil, he is able to choose to do good as well. We see that in our every day life's. God's Word states that, "ALL of our righteousness's are as filthy rags before God." And that stands true in our "unregenerate" state. In that state, we cannot please God. In the Spiritual realm God only excepts sinless perfection. (of which we all fall short.)

This does not mean we as humans can't do good things. "as well as bad" We,(before regeneration) are capable of "worldly works" of good. But so far as God's Grace is concerned, these, "works" cannot earn you, God's Grace. His mercy is granted to those who come, by faith, through the Atonement of Christ on the cross. It's totally God's Grace by which we're saved, not of our works. (which are as, filthy rags before God.)

So you see, it's true that we CAN do good works in the world, but those works CANNOT get us Saved by Grace. By the worlds standard, there is good and bad (evil) By God's standard , there can only be sinless perfection, and that is acquired only through the free gift of God's Grace (through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.) (John 3:16 states it this way,) "For God so LOVED the world (ALL sinners included) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not Perish but have everlasting life."(Ephesians 2:8-9 states,) "For by Grace you have been saved through faith,and that not of yourselves;it is the gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Romans 10:9) "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:13 states: "For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Those versus are not just speaking to a small portion of "elect" but is offered to ALL who will receive God's free gift of Grace...

.
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When ever anyone simply throws out a list of proof texts without any exegesis you just know they are going to be in error! Just look at eph 2:8-9 and ask yourself how can it possibly be saying what you want it to when it clearly says that we are saved, by grace through faith, which is God's gift, ie salvation, grace and faith are the gift of God or are you not aware of how the neuter pronoun works with femine and masculine nouns in greek?
 
Is man capable of both good and evil ?


Men are evil. And, without Jesus Christ they can do nothing good.


Besides all of that, there is no such thing as a good person. Twas the devil who told men that they could have both good and evil in the first place, and now here we are, and eventually evil will destroy us all unless the mighty hand of God intervenes first, and it will.
 
ronniechoate34 said:
Is man capable of both good and evil ?


Men are evil. And, without Jesus Christ they can do nothing good.


Besides all of that, there is no such thing as a good person. Twas the devil who told men that they could have both good and evil in the first place, and now here we are, and eventually evil will destroy us all unless the mighty hand of God intervenes first, and it will.
Click to expand...

Man IS capable of doing good things (worldly things) But, (before regeneration) Man's righteousness's are as "filthy rags" before a Perfect God. None the less, man is capable of doing good things. That's obvious, all we have to do is look around at people doing good and bad things. If what you say is true and man is totally evil, than why don't we see people constantly, murdering, stealing, raping, and any number of atrocious things every minute of the day. The answer is, we don't. Man's good works are useless and not beneficial for him, before Salvation. Man is devoid of the Holy Spirit before Salvation, therefore man's good works don't count before a Just God, who ONLY will accept "sinless perfection."

Calvin's false teaching of "total depravity" is to blame for people not seeing the truth.
 
Grubal Muruch said:
If what you say is true and man is totally evil, than why don't we see people constantly, murdering, stealing, raping, and any number of atrocious things every minute of the day.
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Evil is more than "atrocious" acts, evil is sin against God in any form.


Genesis:6:5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis:6:6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


According to this scripture it's not a stretch to believe that the television, your pop culture, your movies, etc..is evil. Why? Because it's full of adultery, and violence, that's why.
 
turnorburn said:
That didn't take long here's a few..

Famous Calvinists
FAMOUS CALVINISTS OF THE PAST:
Arthur W. Pink (evangelist & scholar)
Benjamin Keach (1689 Baptist Confession)
Charles Spurgeon (Baptist preacher)
George Whitefield (evangelist & preacher)
John Calvin (preacher & Bible scholar)
John Foxe (Foxe's Book Of Martyrs) John Gill (renowned theologian)
John Knox (founder of Presbyterianism) Jonathan Edwards (evangelist)
Martin Luther (Protestant Reformer)
Matthew Henry (bible commentator)
William Carey (missionary)


Famous Calvinists

turnorburn
Click to expand...

Don't forget these

FAMOUS CONTEMPORARY CALVINISTS:</pre>​
 
ronniechoate34 said:
Evil is more than "atrocious" acts, evil is sin against God in any form.


Genesis:6:5: And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Genesis:6:6: And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.


According to this scripture it's not a stretch to believe that the television, your pop culture, your movies, etc..is evil. Why? Because it's full of adultery, and violence, that's why.
Click to expand...

What you say is true and I agree with you. What I don't agree with, is the idea that, unregenerate man, "cannot" do good works.Even the "unsaved" are capable of doing "worldly" good works, these kinds of works are, however, useless before a God that expects "sinless perfection" in all things. We cannot please God with such "good" works. It's only after convertion by God's Grace that we are able to please almighty God...
 
Grubal Muruch said:
According to the Calvinist view of Christianity, man before regeneration is, depraved, sinful,evil, etc,. They believe he is, incapable of reaching out to their Creator. Or, God forbid, placing their faith in Christ as their Savior . And yet if we go back to the "Garden of Eden" we find that, Adam chose (of his freewill) to eat of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Thus, this opened the eyes of both, Adam and Eve. They were now aware of their nakedness.

They had a "choice" from that moment on, to do good or to do evil (They were aware of both because, the tree offered up that dual knowledge.) When they bore their first children, Cain, "chose" to do evil and killed Abel. Abel on the other hand had previously pleased God with his offering and was, by all accounts a good man.

Man is not only, able to choose evil, he is able to choose to do good as well. We see that in our every day life's. God's Word states that, "ALL of our righteousness's are as filthy rags before God." And that stands true in our "unregenerate" state. In that state, we cannot please God. In the Spiritual realm God only excepts sinless perfection. (of which we all fall short.)

This does not mean we as humans can't do good things. "as well as bad" We,(before regeneration) are capable of "worldly works" of good. But so far as God's Grace is concerned, these, "works" cannot earn you, God's Grace. His mercy is granted to those who come, by faith, through the Atonement of Christ on the cross. It's totally God's Grace by which we're saved, not of our works. (which are as, filthy rags before God.)

So you see, it's true that we CAN do good works in the world, but those works CANNOT get us Saved by Grace. By the worlds standard, there is good and bad (evil) By God's standard , there can only be sinless perfection, and that is acquired only through the free gift of God's Grace (through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior.) (John 3:16 states it this way,) "For God so LOVED the world (ALL sinners included) that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not Perish but have everlasting life."(Ephesians 2:8-9 states,) "For by Grace you have been saved through faith,and that not of yourselves;it is the gift of God not of works, lest anyone should boast." (Romans 10:9) "that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:13 states: "For "whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved." Those versus are not just speaking to a small portion of "elect" but is offered to ALL who will receive God's free gift of Grace...





.
Click to expand...


This is sort of an offshoot comment to your post. The reliance on a church to "save" us is one of the things that makes me mad and conflicted with attending. The holy ghost resides in all of us if we simply ask, seek and have faith. One of my favorite quotes from a decent movie, "faith is not based on a floor plan". These ideas that mankind is incapable of good or finding the holy spirit without going to the right place of worship are a quest to expand the power of the church (in my opinion), not necessarily to save them. Only Christ can save us.
 
Men is capable of what men is capable of, and any thing else will require assistance form a higher form. In my case, the lord Jesus.
 
It would seem to me that man is capable of both good and evil.
 
I'm leaning towards Calvinism, so I see it like this: thanks to the Fall, our "free will" is bent towards sin--we are what the scriptures call "slaves of sin." We can do good things, but, like the Scriptures say, our righteousness is like "filthy rags" unto the Lord--He is decidedly unimpressed.

Now, if God has chosen you, at some point He'll soften you up to the truth. The Holy Spirit will convict you of sin. You'll believe in and obey Jesus Christ. Then you become what the Scriptures call "a slave of righteousness." Its all about who controls you--Good or Evil, God or Satan. There is no third way, no morally neutral "I do my own thing" sort of Freewill here. You're hot or you're cold, you're in or you're out, you're Christian or anti-Christ.
 
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