Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[mutzrein]

I noted a question asked of a forum member - and it it the same question asked of me in times past which I would like to throw open to all in this forum.

Now I'm not wanting to debate the trinity, but to establish whether or not we think that our understanding of who Jesus is, is necessary for 'salvation'.

I'm also not wanting to debate salvation, since there are varied understandings of this also. So for the sake of this thread, let's say that salvation is attained at the point at which we hear Jesus say, 'well done thou good and faithful servant'.

 

[Imagican]

Good one Mutz, but I doubt that your 'goal' will be obtained. Too many will insist upon turning it into a debate about the issues that 'surround' your question for them to focus on what you are 'actually asking'.

I'll save my comments for a 'while' and 'see' what 'comes up'.

Blessings, my brother,

MEC

 

[Veritas]

mutz!

Well, God knows your heart, not me. I sure hope you and Imagican are saved, but I'll have to vote for number 1.

I'll explain my reasoning too:

We know Jesus is all good, He is the truth, He is the life, and He is the way. I only believe God can be that, so... I have to vote for number 1.

 

[Fnerb]

mutz!

Well, God knows your heart, not me. I sure hope you and Imagican are saved, but I'll have to vote for number 1.

I'll explain my reasoning too:

We know Jesus is all good, He is the truth, He is the life, and He is the way. I only believe God can be that, so... I have to vote for number 1.

I concur.

 

[destiny]

It's not black and white in some cases. If a person believes Jesus is just another human being who has no power then it is a salvation issue.

If a person believes Jesus is the (Son) of His Father with the attributes of full diety in which there is no other way to be saved, then yes..that person is very much saved.

God isn't quite as merciless as some on here believe he is. I never thought about it, but that must be why some on here have a hard time extending mercy to others whose beliefs aren't exactly like theirs.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Believing that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh is necessary for correct doctrine, however, I don't believe that salvation hangs on it. Scripture says that we need to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.


1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Mutz,

As this new believer begins to study the Word, they are going to learn and grow in their faith. They have heard the term "Trinity" but it is still too deep for them to grasp. When they come to you and ask you to explain the Holy Spirit, what do you tell them?

 

[mutzrein]

Mutz,

As this new believer begins to study the Word, they are going to learn and grow in their faith. They have heard the term "Trinity" but it is still too deep for them to grasp. When they come to you and ask you to explain the Holy Spirit, what do you tell them?

I would start with what Jesus said of the Holy spirit. That there are two births. The birth of the flesh and the birth of the spirit.
I would tell them that Jesus himself was born of the Holy Spirit.
I would tell them that when Jesus returned to the Father, he said he would ask the father to send the Holy Spirit.
I would tell them those who received the Holy Spirit after his ascension were born of the Spirit.
I would tell them that the Holy Spirit is a deposit guaranteeing them an eternal inheritance.
I would tell them that even though they are born of the Holy Spirit, since they are also born of the flesh, they are in a battle.
I would tell them that even though they are a temple of the Holy Spirit, and the law of God is written on their heart, the flesh is at war with the Spirit.
I would tell them what it means to walk in the spirit, in order to die to the flesh.
I would tell them that the Holy Spirit, which is the Spirit of God, leads those who are born of the Spirit into all truth.
I would tell them, that those who are born of the Spirit, will bring forth fruit of the Spirit.
I would tell them that the fruit of the Spirit would be a sign for them so that they would know those who belong to Christ.
I would tell them that there are gifts of the Holy Spirit and these gifts are for the purpose of maturing the church or body of Christ to which they belong.

And finally I would tell them that even though they have received the Spirit, there will be those who will try to drag them back to achieving righteousness before God by what they do, rather than continuing to walk by faith.
I would warn them of the consequences and tell them that this is what it means to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. But I would tell them that as long as the Spirit of God chides with man there is an escape.

There’s probably more I could tell them, but I think I would tell them this for starters.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Would you also tell them that neither Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit are God?

 

[Imagican]

Believing that Jesus Christ is God in the flesh is necessary for correct doctrine, however, I don't believe that salvation hangs on it. Scripture says that we need to believe that Jesus is the Son of God.


1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.

1Jo 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Jhn 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.


Mutz,

As this new believer begins to study the Word, they are going to learn and grow in their faith. They have heard the term "Trinity" but it is still too deep for them to grasp. When they come to you and ask you to explain the Holy Spirit, what do you tell them?

Is NOT 'trinity' a term that is STILL too deep for YOU to grasp gabby?

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Is NOT 'trinity' a term that is STILL too deep for YOU to grasp gabby?

MEC

As is your point...

 

[jgredline]

I will make this simple....

If only GOD can forgive sins which in necesseray in order to approach a Holy God, How can Jesus, if he were Not God forgive sins?......If Jesus is NOT GOD, then he lied when he said.....''Who can forgive sins but God alone'' because as we all know he died on the cross and has forgiven our sins AND i can point to many scriptures that will show Jesus forgiving sins...

Mark 2:7b Who can forgive sins but God alone?â€Â

So if Jesus is NOT God who forgave your sins Mec and Mutz?

If you say God, then Jesus lied Mark 2;7.. which would make Jesus a Sinner...right?

If you say Jesus then how can that be if only God can forgive sins...Again Jesus lied according to your belief that Jesus is NOT God...and sinned....

I would say you guys are in a pickle here.....

The fact is this. Only God can forgive sins and in order for Jesus to be able to atone for our sins and forgive us, then Jesus must be GOD.....


p.s. And if your thinking of the passage ''Forgive us our sins as we have forgiven others theirs''.......That is a completely differant context as none of us can save anyone...Only God can save.......


Further more....When a person is born again the Holy Spirit possess the person and reveals the truth of Who Jesus is...One of which that Jesus is God.....The Holy Spirit reveals truth....

Matt 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsâ€Ââ€â€then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.â€Â


Christ Crucified
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.


Spiritual Wisdom
1 COR 2
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.â€Â
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?†But we have the mind of Christ.
NKJV

When I was Born Again I knew Jesus was God....This truth was not taught to me by men, but by the Holy Spirit......

 

[hybrid]

I noted a question asked of a forum member - and it it the same question asked of me in times past which I would like to throw open to all in this forum.

Now I'm not wanting to debate the trinity, but to establish whether or not we think that our understanding of who Jesus is, is necessary for 'salvation'.

I'm also not wanting to debate salvation, since there are varied understandings of this also. So for the sake of this thread, let's say that salvation is attained at the point at which we hear Jesus say, 'well done thou good and faithful servant'.

mutzrein,

if i may elaborate the options you enumerated...

Jesus is the son/word of god and at the same time, the son of god is also god. the paradox that the Father is greater than the son and yet at time, the son EQUALLY shares/possessed all the attributes/essence of the godhood of the father is admittedly quite perplexing.

but such a belief is plausible for we now that such paradoxes exist in nature/mind/math. for example fractal geometry (the common example is the snow flake or the man made manderbolt fractal). in fractal geometry, there is such a thing as " THE WHOLE in EVERY PART". a fractal shape can also have a FINITE AREA and at the same time an INFINITE length of sides/perimeter. mind boggling but true/real.at any rate, the concept of trinity is not hard to inderstand for those who dabble in metaphysics, quantum physics and christian mysticisms.

i think the kind of belief JEsus asked from his listeners is about trust in him. in effect he was telling the people that He is indeed the son of god and came from heaven, making him privy to the things above so that when he talked about eternal life, he knows what he is talking about.

so belief in him is to believe him when he said that to be saved is to lose the ego/carnal mind and make love/truth the rule of your life.to me that is what following him is all about. understanding who jesus is necessary so you could understand what he is saying....



.

 

[Solo]

Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.

 

[mutzrein]

Would you also tell them that neither Jesus Christ nor the Holy Spirit are God?

Gabby. Many people ask questions, looking for 'yes' or 'no' answers. So when the question is answered, the person who has asked the question interprets the answer according to the premise of their understanding of their question.

For example. I am asked, "are you a christian?". Now in my heart and according to my understanding of what it means to be a christian, I would answer 'yes'. But I have learned not to be so hasty.

Now when we look around us, we see so many definitions as to what a christian is. Even on this forum there will be many varied understandings of what it means. So, rather than allow a person to think I am something I am not - because their premise differs to mine, I refer them to scripture and let scripture speak for itself.

So, in answer to your question regarding Jesus and the Holy spirit, my initial response would not be to answer 'yes' OR 'no' but to show them what scripture says. I would listen to what they believe it says and where there is difference of opinion I would tell them what I believe also.

 

[mutzrein]

mutz!

Well, God knows your heart, not me. I sure hope you and Imagican are saved, but I'll have to vote for number 1.

I'll explain my reasoning too:

We know Jesus is all good, He is the truth, He is the life, and He is the way. I only believe God can be that, so... I have to vote for number 1.

Thanks for your response Veritas and I like your statement that God knows our hearts. He sure does. And so does Jesus :

However, if you voted for '1' and I didn't, surely your hope for our salvation is misplaced. If indeed '1' is correct.

In any case, I understand your heart
The Lord bless you

 

[jgredline]

Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.

Michael.
This was a really good post...and I agree with you.....
as the scripture says..''13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.''

Like I said....Once one is Born again the Holy Spirit will reveal himself to the new creation as God.....The person who does not have the Holy Spirit indwelling them will NOT understand this fact that Jesus is God.....

 

[Vic C.]

I will agree with Michael too. I always believed in God and simply accepted a Triune God without questioning or studying it. When I was saved eight years ago, it was revealed to me in a way that I could have never understood prior to my salvation. This is one of those progressive revelations about God that was alluded to in the OT and was furthur revealed in the NT. We try to put it in modern man's way of thinking and many fail to understand it. There is a Spiritual truth to it that escapes our intellect; even Newton struggled with the concept of a Triune God.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I will agree with Michael too. I always believed in God and simply accepted a Triune God without questioning or studying it. When I was saved eight years ago, it was revealed to me in a way that I could have never understood prior to my salvation. This is one of those progressive revelations about God that was alluded to in the OT and was furthur revealed in the NT. We try to put it in modern man's way of thinking and many fail to understand it. There is a Spiritual truth to it that escapes our intellect; even Newton struggled with the concept of a Triune God.

It is amazing how the Lord reveals truth to those who are seeking it.

 

[jgredline]

Amen, Vic and Little Angel

 

[stranger]

Hi folks,

This comes to mind. There was a fellow called James Orr who studied revivals all his life and even wrote a hymn called 'Search me oh God and know my heart today'. If there was anything about revivals to be seen I would say he saw it. In reading some of his accounts - on one trip to India - he said he saw just enough to prevent him from formulating a standard formula. This interested me.

In the present discussion - are we not talking about the very moment or point of salvation? I have heard and read so many testimonies, accepted at face value - to be able to say God works in many, many and varying ways and each person saved is a babe in Christ - the learning comes afterwards. What is necessary for salvation - to come as a little child when God offers or calls us.