Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[MarkT]

If only GOD can forgive sins which in necesseray in order to approach a Holy God, How can Jesus, if he were Not God forgive sins?......If Jesus is NOT GOD, then he lied when he said.....''Who can forgive sins but God alone'' because as we all know he died on the cross and has forgiven our sins AND i can point to many scriptures that will show Jesus forgiving sins...

Mark 2:7b Who can forgive sins but God alone?â€Â

Jesus didn't say this. The scribes did. Mark 2:6

And Jesus said , "Father forgive them" on the cross but you're right Jesus did say, "your sins are forgiven". The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. Mark 2:10

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

 

[cyberjosh]

Hi mutz,

I know we have had discussions on this, and I don't want to go through them all again. Knowing Christ is knowing who He is, and living in that belief, or knowledge, by faith.

I think the verses in 1 John speak to these things.

Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and those that do not, are of the spirit of the anitchrist. The latter is some sort of counterfeit doctrine, and it may be verty subtle, but it is up to me to share the Truth for the sake of Jesus. Christ came in the flesh. I think we need to really know what that means, and who Christ is. Because I love you, and MEC too, I warn you both strongly that there is an eternal covenant at work, and Christ is the eternal Son of God, and God...He is the Word, who was with God, and God, come to man in the form of man, as man, and rose again. I have mentioned Hebrews 1 before, where the Father does refer to the Son as His God. It is my understanding in the pages of Scripture that Christ's nature, as God, is why the belief of Him coming in the flesh is so amazing, important, and necessary.

I think that John also tells us that the evidence is the love in us that causes us to be obedient to God's commands...I am referring to 1 John here again...and mutz I know you are familar with these verses. I do not want to turn this into a Trinity debate, I know we do not agree on Trinity, or 1 John's meaning as far as the Christ come in the flesh part, but I wanted to say that I believe that Scripture teaches Jesus (God) came in the flesh, and that the Holy Spirit also communicates this witness of who Christ is to us. For me, this is a divide, because of the Word of God, and these verses, and when the topic is addressed I must remain truthful to that even if it causes offense.

I pray that you, MEC, and others see this at some point, or are restored to it, because I believe the Truth of it is vital to salvation. Please do not think I say this to hurt anyone, or anger them, but only to adhere to what I believe is the Truth of the Word, and to give you a warning in Love to revisit the matter. For me, to offend others because of my desire to uphold this Truth of who Christ is hard, but it is not something I can avoid and be honest. If I knew that Christ was not God, then I would not worship Him...as one who keeps the commandments, in love, as John put forth as the evidence of a true believer. Thou shall have no other God's before me is Truth, and there is no lie in it...if it is okay to worship Christ...bow before Him...then, it is because He is God.

The Lord bless all of you.

I think I'm going to print this out an mull over it. Very good!

God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Vic C.]

Jesus said, 'Why do you call me good. Only God is good.' He didn't count himself equal to God.

This one comes up more than any other verse when this subject is discussed. If you can use this verse as prooftext that Jesus is not Diety, then we in all rights can use John 8:58 to prove otherwise.

I would take a closer look as to what message Jesus is conveying here. He asked a question; He didn't make any statements like, You shold not be calling me good. The implication within His question and statement was, "Why is it you call me good? Listen, if you are calling me good, you better understand why I am good".

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

PNT: 19:17 Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is,] God. The Revised Version, following the Siniatic, Vatican, and some other manuscripts, leaves off good before Master in Mt 19:16, and changes this to, Why asketh thou me concerning that which is good ? Still, Mark and Luke give the question in the form of the Common Version as here (Mr 10:18 Lu 18:19); hence we are justified in adhering to the text as above. Some have seen in these words of Christ an affirmation that he was not divine. To these, Stier replies:

Either there is none good but God, Christ is good, therefore Christ is God; or, there is none good but God, Christ is not God, therefore Christ is not good.''

http://bible.cc/matthew/19-17.htm

You either have to accept or deny that Jesus was sinless. I believe Jesus to be sinless, BEFORE and AFTER the Cross. Therefore, if He is sinless that would mean He is good. If He is good and the verse says no one is good but God..........

Also consider this from Revelation... NO ONE, I stress, was able to open the scroll becase no one was worthy. Until the Lamb arrived in all his (worthy and sinless) glory.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon....
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
Rev 5:7 And he came and took the book out of the right hand of him that sat upon the throne....

 

[jgredline]

Jesus didn't say this. The scribes did. Mark 2:6

And Jesus said , "Father forgive them" on the cross but you're right Jesus did say, "your sins are forgiven". The Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. Mark 2:10

The Father loves the Son, and has given all things into his hand.

Mark
Yes you are correct on Mark 2:7b ...but lets take a look at the context...

Mark 2:1-12
And again He entered Capernaum after some days, and it was heard that He was in the house. 2 Immediately many gathered together, so that there was no longer room to receive them, not even near the door. And He preached the word to them. 3 Then they came to Him, bringing a paralytic who was carried by four men. 4 And when they could not come near Him because of the crowd, they uncovered the roof where He was. So when they had broken through, they let down the bed on which the paralytic was lying.
5 When Jesus saw their faith, He said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven you.â€Â
6 And some of the scribes were sitting there and reasoning in their hearts, 7 “Why does this Man speak blasphemies like this? Who can forgive sins but God alone?â€Â
8 But immediately, when Jesus perceived in His spirit that they reasoned thus within themselves, He said to them, “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts? 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsâ€Ââ€â€He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.†12 Immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went out in the presence of them all, so that all were amazed and glorified God, saying, “We never saw anything like this!â€Â

OK..iN VERSE 5 Jesus says “Son, your sins are forgiven you.†So here Jesus clearly forgave his sins....

Now in verse 6 and 7...The scribes quickly caught on toWhat Jesus was saying.. They ALL went to bible school and new doctrine and they knew that only God can forgive sins. Anyone who professed to forgive sins was therefore claiming to be God. Up to this point, their logic was correct. But instead of acknowledging the Lord Jesus to be God, they accused Him in their hearts of speaking blasphemies. Hmmm Kinda like a few folks here.....

Now lets take a quick a look at verses 8 and 9...Jesus says to the scribes “Why do you reason about these things in your hearts?...You see..Jesus read their minds...Even further proof of his God POWER....

Now a quick look at verses 10-12....By this time Jesus had already forgiven the man of his sins and now he was going to prove it to the scribes by saying.... 9 Which is easier, to say to the paralytic, ‘Your sins are forgiven you,’ or to say, ‘Arise, take up your bed and walk’? 10 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsâ€Ââ€â€He said to the paralytic, 11 “I say to you, arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.â€Â

And after all this the scribes did not believe.....Hmmmm sound familiar?

 

[MarkT]

This one comes up more than any other verse when this subject is discussed. If you can use this verse as prooftext that Jesus is not Diety, then we in all rights can use John 8:58 to prove otherwise.

I would take a closer look as to what message Jesus is conveying here. He asked a question; He didn't make any statements like, You shold not be calling me good. The implication within His question and statement was, "Why is it you call me good? Listen, if you are calling me good, you better understand why I am good".

Doesn't Paul say it clearly? 'He is the image of the invisible God, the first born of all creation.' Col 1:15 Everything Paul said about Jesus is consistent with what Jesus said about himself and with what was revealed to Peter.

We look for consistency and we find it throughout the New Testament and the Old Testament. The devils who didn't know him accused Jesus of saying he was God. Jesus replied, "do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, 'You are blaspheming,' because I said, 'I am the Son of God'? The Jews were blind. Jesus didn't say any such thing. If he had said such a thing, then the Jews would have been right to accuse him. Indeed, if Jesus, a man, had said he was God, the Jews would have been justified. Jesus would have broken the law. Jesus was affirming his right to say he was the Son of God when he said a man to whom the word of God comes is called a 'god' and he wasn't saying he was a 'god' though he, being a man, had a right to say it if he was a prophet but being sent by the Father, he was the Son, he was the Word himself, not just a word coming to a man.

I agree Jesus was sinless. He kept the law and the commandments. But this has nothing to do with being good. Remember, we are not justified by the workings of the law. Keeping the law doesn't make anyone good. As Jesus said, 'Only God is good.' And Jesus included himself in his statement.

Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God. He was about righteousness. Righteousness has nothing to do with being good. The idea that Jesus did not claim to be good is consistent with the idea that his coming would tear families apart. Certainly not good. It's also consistent with the idea that the Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son. Jesus said, 'For judgment I came into this world'. His answer was consistent with his purpose and the will of the Father. Jesus was the righteousness of God. He said, 'My judgment is just' and 'my judgment is true'. Indeed, his judgment brings peace to those who are made righteous by faith in him but he will be a terror to the wicked.

If you knew anything about righteousness and good, you would know that the LORD was not doing good when he slew the first born of Egypt, for example.

 

[MarkT]

Now in verse 6 and 7...The scribes quickly caught on toWhat Jesus was saying.. They ALL went to bible school and new doctrine and they knew that only God can forgive sins. Anyone who professed to forgive sins was therefore claiming to be God. Up to this point, their logic was correct. But instead of acknowledging the Lord Jesus to be God, they accused Him in their hearts of speaking blasphemies. Hmmm Kinda like a few folks here.....

They thought they knew everything, being scribes but Jesus called them whitewashed tombs leading people to open graves. This means they didn't know God or the power of God. Jesus answered them so that they should know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. See where Jesus says, 'But that you may know'? It tells us that they did not know this about Jesus. So how could they be ignorant of the fact and correct in their reasoning at the same time?

 

[jgredline]

A couple of things real quick as I need to go to work....

First lets look and see how you took col:15 out of context.....

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

You convieniantly forgot verses 16-18 and I believe they need no commentary, the scriptures will speak for themselves....


Secondly....By your explanation,

They thought they knew everything, being scribes but Jesus called them whitewashed tombs leading people to open graves. This means they didn't know God or the power of God. Jesus answered them so that they should know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins. See where Jesus says, 'But that you may know'? It tells us that they did not know this about Jesus. So how could they be ignorant of the fact and correct in their reasoning at the same time?

You also took me out of context as well. i am not surprised.....
Let me make this simple for you....

If only God can forgive sins and Jesus forgave sins, what does that make Jesus?

 

[MarkT]

A couple of things real quick as I need to go to work....

First lets look and see how you took col:15 out of context.....

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17 And He is before all things, and in Him all things consist. 18 And He is the head of the body, the church, who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things He may have the preeminence.

You convieniantly forgot verses 16-18 and I believe they need no commentary, the scriptures will speak for themselves....


Secondly....By your explanation,

You also took me out of context as well. i am not surprised.....
Let me make this simple for you....

If only God can forgive sins and Jesus forgave sins, what does that make Jesus?

Well then I don't know what your argument is. I only quoted the relevant part. 'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.'

We seek the knowledge of God. Pay attention to what Jesus 'did' say and don't add anything to his words. He said, 'Which is easier to say to the paralytic, 'Your sins are forgiven,' or to say, 'Rise, take up your pallet and walk.'? and then he said, 'But that you may know that the Son of man has authority on earth to forgive sins - he said to the paralytic- 'I say to you, rise, take up your pallet and go home.' So this was something new to the scribes. They didn't know that Christ had the authority on earth to forgive sins. In fact God didn't reveal everything to the ancient Israelites long ago because he knew they would deal treacherously with him. Remember, the scribes were vipers, sons of the evil one. They were rebels from birth as Isaiah wrote. Isaiah 48:8

So do you still think your premise is true? I'll tell you something you don't know. The Son of man has the authority on earth to forgive sins. We can forgive sins in his name. We can forgive sins because Jesus forgave our sins first. In heaven, the Father forgives. On earth, the Son forgives. God, the Father is in heaven. God forgives us in heaven as we forgive those who trespass against us on earth because we are in his Son and his Son has authority on earth.

Now, I'm not saying the scribes didn't think he was making himself God. But how can you take their understanding and make it your own? I mean, they were vipers. It's not likely the devil would feed his children the truth. So when you agree with them that Jesus was making himself God aren't you building on sand? You reason from the opposite end. You begin from 'Jesus is God' and then you look for the evidence to support your preconceived idea. You shouldn't reason from what you don't yet know. That's something the Evos do. Do you also believe in Evolution?

 

[Free]

I only quoted the relevant part. 'He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.'

Then:

You reason from the opposite end. You begin from 'Jesus is God' and then you look for the evidence to support your preconceived idea. You shouldn't reason from what you don't yet know. That's something the Evos do. Do you also believe in Evolution?

Perhaps you should be asked the same question.

How is it that "the relevant part" is the only part in that passage which appears to support your assumptions, your doctrine? This is called taking a verse out of context. You clearly ignored the rest of the passage which states unequivocally that Jesus created everything. Your only out is to do what JW's have done in the NWT - add "other" to read "all other things".

It is apparent that you too, are looking only for evidence to support your preconceived idea.

 

[Free]

I am just a humble Southern Baptist who did not believe that Jesus was anything other than the Son of God until after I was born again.

But if believing Jesus is God is evidence of your salvation, then you couldn't have been saved if you had believed otherwise.

Did Thomas know Jesus to be God before or after he believed?

We don't know, Scripture doesn't say if Thomas thought Jesus was God prior to his death and resurrection. Besides, Thomas' unbelief was regarding whether or not Jesus was alive, not Jesus' deity.

 

[Free]

They are as far as I know. See God weighs the spirit. As long as the foundation is Ok, the man will be saved but the knowledge of God which didn't come from God will be burned up. So all kinds are compelled into the church, both good and bad, sheep and goats. I would have you keep this in mind; images are created by words. To grow into the image of Christ, seek the words of God. Treasure them up in your heart, 'For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.'

The problem with this then is that you want to divorce belief from salvation, but right belief is essential to salvation and right belief means believing correct doctrine. Wrong belief leads down the wrong path, which the Bible makes clear. If one has a wrong concept of God, one cannot be saved.

 

[jgredline]

In my view the Trinity concept isn't very useful. Jesus was not God incarnate. He was the incarnate Word; the first act of God, the workman, the Day, the arm of the LORD, the light that was made in the beginning, the vehicle by whom and through whom God made everything. Be obedient to the Word. .

It is quite obvious by your postings that you do not believe Jesus to be God....
If this is not correct please let me know.....
I took the liberty of providing you with the scriptures that say Jesus is God in the flesh...I even used the NLT so that even those who have attended Polk high could understand it......


1 In the beginning the Word already existed.
The Word was with God,
and the Word was God.
2 He existed in the beginning with God.
3 God created everything through him,
and nothing was created except through him.
4 The Word gave life to everything that was created,
and his life brought light to everyone.
5 The light shines in the darkness,
and the darkness can never extinguish it.
New Living Translation.

6 God sent a man, John the Baptist, 7 to tell about the light so that everyone might believe because of his testimony. 8 John himself was not the light; he was simply a witness to tell about the light. 9 The one who is the true light, who gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
10 He came into the very world he created, but the world didn’t recognize him. 11 He came to his own people, and even they rejected him. 12 But to all who believed him and accepted him, he gave the right to become children of God. 13 They are rebornâ€â€not with a physical birth resulting from human passion or plan, but a birth that comes from God.
14 So the Word became human and made his home among us. He was full of unfailing love and faithfulness. And we have seen his glory, the glory of the Father’s one and only Son.
15 John testified about him when he shouted to the crowds, “This is the one I was talking about when I said, ‘Someone is coming after me who is far greater than I am, for he existed long before me.’ â€Â
16 From his abundance we have all received one gracious blessing after another. 17 For the law was given through Moses, but God’s unfailing love and faithfulness came through Jesus Christ. 18 No one has ever seen God. But the unique One, who himself God, is near to the Father’s heart. He has revealed God to us.


1 col 15-20 NLT Christ Is Supreme
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t seeâ€â€
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.

 

[jgredline]

Here is a little more scripture to ponder...Lets take a brief look at doubting Thomas....Again the NLT so its easy to understand.....

John 20:24
24 One of the twelve disciples, Thomas (nicknamed the Twin), was not with the others when Jesus came. 25 They told him, “We have seen the Lord!â€Â
But he replied, “I won’t believe it unless I see the nail wounds in his hands, put my fingers into them, and place my hand into the wound in his side.â€Â
26 Eight days later the disciples were together again, and this time Thomas was with them. The doors were locked; but suddenly, as before, Jesus was standing among them. “Peace be with you,†he said. 27 Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here, and look at my hands. Put your hand into the wound in my side. Don’t be faithless any longer. Believe!â€Â
28 “My Lord and my God!†Thomas exclaimed.
29 Then Jesus told him, “You believe because you have seen me. Blessed are those who believe without seeing me.â€Â


Now It is very obvious that Thomas did not believe Jesus was alive, let alone ''God''...Further more he did not believe because Thomas had not yet Recieved the Holy Spirit who reveals truth.....(1 cor chapter 2).....

John 20:19-23
19 That Sunday evening the disciples were meeting behind locked doors because they were afraid of the Jewish leaders. Suddenly, Jesus was standing there among them! “Peace be with you,†he said. 20 As he spoke, he showed them the wounds in his hands and his side. They were filled with joy when they saw the Lord! 21 Again he said, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you.†22 Then he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.â€Â

So you see Bundy, it is very clear that the reason Thomas did not believe Jesus was God let alone that Jesus was alive, ''God in the flesh'' was because he did not have the Holy Spirit...So like Solo SAID....AS well as others here on this thread...When they became born again they recieved the Holy Spirit and Like Thomas....Waalaa... The Holy Spirit reveals to those who are Born Again that Jesus is God.....

So if you don't believe that Jesus is God come in the flesh, then may I suggest that according to the scriptures you do not have the Holy Spirit and thus you are not born again..................

 

[jgredline]

One more for you and others to ponder.....
Luke 1
46 And Mary said:
“My soul magnifies the Lord,
47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior.

Who was Mary's Saviour?....Who is the only one who can save?
Who is ''the way, the truth and the life?''......that nobody can get to the father but through him?.....Who was Mary refering to as God?......

Why would Mary need a saviour if she was sinless?....ooops this is of topic, scratch this last part....I am typing what is going through my head.....

 

[jgredline]

Please excuse my type'os as I am to lazy to proof read what I am typing......To much on the brain right now..... :

 

[MarkT]

How is it that "the relevant part" is the only part in that passage which appears to support your assumptions, your doctrine? This is called taking a verse out of context. You clearly ignored the rest of the passage which states unequivocally that Jesus created everything. Your only out is to do what JW's have done in the NWT - add "other" to read "all other things".

How does anything that follows the relevant part change the relevant part? Perhaps I don't understand your argument. We know the Lord Jesus is lord over all; he is the head of the body, pre-eminent in everything. Paul writes, "For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell". The 'fullness of God' refers to the Father and we know this is true because Jesus said, 'the Father is in me'. We agree that the Father is God. We know the Word was with God in the beginning and the Lord God made everything by him and through him. I don't see what else I can say. By the way, I'm not JW.

 

[MarkT]

The problem with this then is that you want to divorce belief from salvation, but right belief is essential to salvation and right belief means believing correct doctrine. Wrong belief leads down the wrong path, which the Bible makes clear. If one has a wrong concept of God, one cannot be saved.

How do you figure I want to divorce belief from salvation? I'm just telling you the truth but you don't listen. There's only one God, the Father and one Son, Jesus Christ. Are you asking for a concept of the Father? OK. The Father is God. How do I know? Jesus said so. "And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent" John 17:3 Paul said so. Jude said so. 'To the only God our Saviour through Jesus Christ our Lord', John said so. Speaking of Jesus he said, "To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever". Rev. 1:5 John writes, 'No man has ever seen God' John 4:12. That's true because God is spirit and he dwells in unapproachable light. Jesus said seeing him was seeing the Father. That's true because Jesus was the image of the invisible God. John talks about the 'word of life', 'that was made manifest and we saw it, and testify to it, and proclaim to you the eternal life that was with the Father and was made manifest to us'. He goes on, "We have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous" referring to the Word, the light that came into the world. He writes, "We have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son as the Saviour of the world." Perhaps I don't understand what your issue is but I think I can pretty well say that there are many here who do not want to know God.

 

[MarkT]

It is quite obvious by your postings that you do not believe Jesus to be God....
If this is not correct please let me know.....
I took the liberty of providing you with the scriptures that say Jesus is God in the flesh...I even used the NLT so that even those who have attended Polk high could understand it......

Are you trying to provoke me jgredline? Jesus is my brother and my Lord. I have both the Father and the Son in me. I give thanks in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ to God the Father. Yes I do believe Jesus was appointed the heir of all things. I do believe he reflects the glory of God. I do believe he is my Lord and God. I also know you and I know your spirit.

 

[mutzrein]

MarkT - There are some who I would describe as having a 'religious spirit'. When you say anything that is not in-line with what they believe is 'correct' doctrine, they try to put you in a box and align you with any cult that to them, has a similar belief. And as such you become marked as one who is a false teacher and one whose 'doctrine' disqualifies them from salvation.

You see to some, salvation is not by faith but by academic assent to a doctrine. And the end result is not the righteousness that comes by faith - but self righteousness. Whatever the case, the fruit of it is evident.

 

[MarkT]

MarkT - There are some who I would describe as having a 'religious spirit'. When you say anything that is not in-line with what they believe is 'correct' doctrine, they try to put you in a box and align you with any cult that to them, has a similar belief. And as such you become marked as one who is a false teacher and one whose 'doctrine' disqualifies them from salvation.

You see to some, salvation is not by faith but by academic assent to a doctrine. And the end result is not the righteousness that comes by faith - but self righteousness. Whatever the case, the fruit of it is evident.

Good job Mutzrein. My friend, you I recognize.