Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[Imagican]

Hi folks,

This comes to mind. There was a fellow called James Orr who studied revivals all his life and even wrote a hymn called 'Search me oh God and know my heart today'. If there was anything about revivals to be seen I would say he saw it. In reading some of his accounts - on one trip to India - he said he saw just enough to prevent him from formulating a standard formula. This interested me.

KNOW this; there ARE gods MANY. And it would be UTTER foolishness for ANY man to even 'think' that Satan DOESN'T KNOW this. Satan once inhabited the SAME 'heaven' AS God. There should be LITTLE doubt that he is 'aware' of God's methods. And, so knowing IS able to 'counterfeit' ALMOST everything concerning God.

With these things in mind, is it SO hard to understand how EASY it is for Satan to 'generate feelings' in human beings? To encourage 'false belief' into being TRUE to the 'individual'?

Let me see if I can offer this in more 'simple' terms with a question instead. Is it POSSIBLE that Satan IS able to elicite the EXACT SAME feelings in humans when they 'come to HIM' and 'worship HIM' that one would feel if they were coming instead to God through Christ? Some will say NO. Ok, HOW WOULD YOU KNOW? How would one KNOW if they were being led by Satan instead of God. For when we study the story of Adam and Eve we quickly realize that what the serpent stated to Eve was 99 percent 'truth' with a mere 1 percent falacy. That's ALL it took to turn the 'truth' into a LIE.

So, is it POSSIBLE that there ARE MANY that have been 'duped' in the EXACT SAME WAY. Been given MOST of the truth but with a small potion of 'deception' intermingled so that their beliefs THEN become warped into a 'lie'? And, if this could happen to ONE, could it NOT happen to MANY? And IF MANY, not MOST? And if MOST, ALL but a 'few'?

In the present discussion - are we not talking about the very moment or point of salvation? I have heard and read so many testimonies, accepted at face value - to be able to say God works in many, many and varying ways and each person saved is a babe in Christ - the learning comes afterwards. What is necessary for salvation - to come as a little child when God offers or calls us.

Is this statement then to be accepted AS TRUTH? That ALL that have a 'testimony' are 'babes in Christ'? Or could SOME of these be 'babes in Satan'? Some of these that profess a 'Christ', could this NOT be a 'different' Christ than the Son of God? For we KNOW that Satan WILL emulate Christ upon his 'taking on the flesh'. That he WILL perform miracles of deception and 'lying wonders'. If this IS to BE in the future, is 'his time' not NOW?

MEC

 

[mutzrein]

Hi folks,

This comes to mind. There was a fellow called James Orr who studied revivals all his life and even wrote a hymn called 'Search me oh God and know my heart today'. If there was anything about revivals to be seen I would say he saw it. In reading some of his accounts - on one trip to India - he said he saw just enough to prevent him from formulating a standard formula. This interested me.

In the present discussion - are we not talking about the very moment or point of salvation? I have heard and read so many testimonies, accepted at face value - to be able to say God works in many, many and varying ways and each person saved is a babe in Christ - the learning comes afterwards. What is necessary for salvation - to come as a little child when God offers or calls us.

Thanks stranger

I tried to clarify 'salvation' in my opening post - for the sake of this thread - to be the point at which we hear the Lord say "Well done good and faithful servant".

I realise there are those who believe that at the point of 'being saved' many do not 'know' that Jesus is God but are later 'schooled' in the idea. So what I was trying to determine was, after living your life as a Christian and at the end of it still not believing that Jesus is God, is a person REALLY saved or not (according to your understanding).

 

[jgredline]

I was trying to determine was, after living your life as a Christian and at the end of it still not believing that Jesus is God, is a person REALLY saved or not (according to your understanding).

NO......

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.â€Â

 

[Free]

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

I find these two passages quite interesting. Salvation is given to those who "believe in him", which is further defined as "believing in his name". I could be wrong but I am sure that to "believe in the name of Jesus" means to believe in who he is, not just what he accomlished although it certainly doesn't exclude that.

My point - salvation is for those who not only believe in the death and resurrection of Christ but who believe he is who he said he is. This of course begs the question of who he is, but that is for another thread, or two, or ten.
If Christ can be something to someone and something else entirely to someone else and both are saved, then the authority of Scripture and the gospel are greatly undermined.

The main problem with believing that one only has to believe Jesus is the "Son of God" for salvation, is that then Mormons and JWs, among others, are also saved despite their vastly different understandings of what "Son of God" means. And these both vary from orthodox Christianity.

 

[jgredline]

The main problem with believing that one only has to believe Jesus is the "Son of God" for salvation, is that then Mormons and JWs, among others, are also saved despite their vastly different understandings of what "Son of God" means. And these both vary from orthodox Christianity.

Free
This is exactly right....I did not consider this...but your right...This is a very good point....and just add a little bit to your post, Jesus did say he was God....

Good post....

 

[mutzrein]

Joh 1:12 But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God,

Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in him may have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

I find these two passages quite interesting. Salvation is given to those who "believe in him", which is further defined as "believing in his name". I could be wrong but I am sure that to "believe in the name of Jesus" means to believe in who he is, not just what he accomlished although it certainly doesn't exclude that.

My point - salvation is for those who not only believe in the death and resurrection of Christ but who believe he is who he said he is. This of course begs the question of who he is, but that is for another thread, or two, or ten.
If Christ can be something to someone and something else entirely to someone else and both are saved, then the authority of Scripture and the gospel are greatly undermined.

The main problem with believing that one only has to believe Jesus is the "Son of God" for salvation, is that then Mormons and JWs, among others, are also saved despite their vastly different understandings of what "Son of God" means. And these both vary from orthodox Christianity.

Free - my knowledge of who Jesus is, is nothing like the Mormons and JW's - or any other cultic sect for that matter.

 

[MarkT]

It's not a question of necessity. Whosoever believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God will be saved. It's the promise. It's God's will. To put it another way, this is the rock or the foundation of your house. So you want to listen to God and I have to emphasize this; listen carefully; Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. If this isn't your understanding exactly, then you're not listening to God and your house isn't standing on a firm foundation.

Remember, the Jews did not listen and they did not understand. They crucified Jesus because they thought he was blaspheming and making himself God; that is the Father, because there is only one true God; the Father. So when you say Jesus was God, be careful you're not understanding the way the Jews understood.

God in his wisdom made his name to dwell among men. It is probably hard to imagine God's name as being the Holy One of Israel or that God could be in his wisdom or that God could grant his name to have life in himself as God has life in himself but these are spiritual things. The name of the Lord was the LORD in the Old Testament. He was with God in the beginning. God acted in his name, the LORD.

In my view the Trinity concept isn't very useful. Jesus was not God incarnate. He was the incarnate Word; the first act of God, the workman, the Day, the arm of the LORD, the light that was made in the beginning, the vehicle by whom and through whom God made everything. Be obedient to the Word.

Ro 10:10
For man believes with his heart and so is justified, and he confesses with his lips and so is saved.

1Jo 2:23
No one who denies the Son has the Father. He who confesses the Son has the Father also.

1Jo 4:2
By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit which confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God,

1Jo 4:15
Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God.

 

[MarkT]

In Genesis, the Lord God walked in the garden. No name. Then the 'name' was given to Moses - the 'LORD'. When the 'LORD' became one of us, God declared, "This is my Son". The Son was given the Father's name 'Jesus'. So essentially believing in Jesus is believing in the Father in his name. Jesus is God to us but God the Father is God to Jesus. This explains why Jesus says, "the Father is greater than I." John 14:28

 

[AVBunyan]

Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.

Solo is absolutely right here.

The majority of "christianity" has yet to figure out what the gospel is for today.

God bless

 

[Rick W]

Jesus is God's son and this belief IS necessary for salvation.

I will agree with Michael too. I always believed in God and simply accepted a Triune God without questioning or studying it. When I was saved eight years ago, it was revealed to me in a way that I could have never understood prior to my salvation. This is one of those progressive revelations about God that was alluded to in the OT and was furthur revealed in the NT. We try to put it in modern man's way of thinking and many fail to understand it. There is a Spiritual truth to it that escapes our intellect; even Newton struggled with the concept of a Triune God.

:smt023


Saved in the blink of an eye alone on a back porch in Clinton, Utah ... Aug 21, 1998. And I had this intense desire to know who this Jesus was. Totally devoured the bible, something I couldn't read before. I had the good fortune of being invited into a christian home (I was living with another friend at the time) and was discipled, mentored, whatever, in the Word. Not even a week afterward did it really sink in who Christ is, God incarnate, the Word of God made flesh.
"I will agree with Michael too." because that was my experience. I seriously doubt I could have accepted His deity beforehand since I thought the bible was a bunch of hooey anyway.

 

[stovebolts]

Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.

I also agree with this statment, and that is why I believe that we are to be lights for the nations, salt of the earth. Only this truth can be revealed by the spirit for it is not an understanding that we can learn, or become entirely educated on.

David, a man after God's own heart knew this and is made evident in Davids's reaction to Shimei in 2 Samuel 16. (Shimei is an excellent study btw)

 

[Imagican]

NO......

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? And in thy name have cast out devils? And in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I NEVER KNEW YOU: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.â€Â

j,

NOTHING in this scripture offers what YOU state. I could offer the 'same' scripture stating that those that 'accept' Jesus AS God were the one's being refered to here. That it was 'these' that chose to worship a 'false god' and therefore Christ 'didn't even know them'.

So, your premise is that the apostles, and ALL that they delivered The Word to were NOT saved? For the apostles NEVER taught that Jesus IS God. Even with all the 'twisting' of scripture and 'desire' for it to offer what you 'believe', it has NEVER been plainly stated by the apostles that Jesus IS God. They were commisioned to baptize in the name of The Father, and The Son and The Holy Spirit. NEVER were they commanded to baptise in the NAME of 'three ARE ONE', or 'in JESUS NAME WHO IS GOD'.

But what we DO have is MUCH scripture written by ALL the apostles whose records we have, the distinction between Christ and God. We EVEN have the apostle's writting that states that OUR God IS the God of Christ as well.

So, once again, beware my friend. We WILL be judged according to how we choose to judge. It's one thing to refute the words of those that you disagree with. But when you starting setting 'yourself' up to even indicate that you are able to read the hearts of others, you set yourself up for a serious 'fall'. And those things that ARE impossible for man, ARE possible with God.

That many 'believe' that Christ IS God is without doubt. But PLEASE stop trying to tell others things that are NOT contained in The Word and teaching them as FACT. For it is NOT a 'fact' that can be PROVEN with ANY authority; that ONE MUST accept Jesus AS God in order to 'be saved'. That is YOUR opinion and CANNOT be backed by scripture. If revelation, then I propose that there is revelation MUCH and it MUST be 'different' for 'different people'.

MEC

 

[Free]

Free - my knowledge of who Jesus is, is nothing like the Mormons and JW's - or any other cultic sect for that matter.

I was not trying to imply such but you have made my point even clearer. You have a different belief of who Jesus is from Mormons and JWs as well as orthodox Christianity. My point is that if Jesus can be whoever or whatever someone wants him to be then Christianity and the Bible completely fall apart and there is salvation for no one.

Either Jesus is who he said he is and salvation is dependent on that, or he is whoever one wants him to be and no one is, or will be, saved.

Jesus is God and the knowledge or understanding of this fact is not necessary for one to become saved, but after one is saved, the understanding that Jesus is God is evidence of one's salvation.

This is contradictory. It is the very same argument that "hyper-Pentecostals/Charasmatics" use - speaking in tongues isn't necessary for salvation but the evidence that one is saved (ie. filled with the Spirit) is that they speak in tongues. This arugment means that one is saved after they are saved.

This would be the same as saying that one doesn't need to believe Jesus is Lord or believe in his death and resurrection or that they are a sinner in need of repentance for salvation, but that as long as they believe those things after they are saved, then that is evidence that they are saved. It makes no sense.

 

[jgredline]

Mec

First, go back and read all that I have posted in ''this'' thread...
Next look at the context of the converstaion...
Then look at the question that Mutz asked...
Then you will see I mearly asnswered it and offered up my opinion...

Now mec....Go back and read folks testimony on ''this'' thread....What you will notice is that GOd revealed to those who were born again that Jesus is God....

Now I ask and this is a repost of mine from page 1 if you care to answer it...

I will make this simple....

If only GOD can forgive sins which in necesseray in order to approach a Holy God, How can Jesus, if he were Not God forgive sins?......If Jesus is NOT GOD, then he lied when he said.....''Who can forgive sins but God alone'' because as we all know he died on the cross and has forgiven our sins AND i can point to many scriptures that will show Jesus forgiving sins...

Mark 2:7b Who can forgive sins but God alone?â€Â

So if Jesus is NOT God who forgave your sins Mec and Mutz?

If you say God, then Jesus lied Mark 2;7.. which would make Jesus a Sinner...right?

If you say Jesus then how can that be if only God can forgive sins...Again Jesus lied according to your belief that Jesus is NOT God...and sinned....

I would say you guys are in a pickle here.....

The fact is this. Only God can forgive sins and in order for Jesus to be able to atone for our sins and forgive us, then Jesus must be GOD.....


p.s. And if your thinking of the passage ''Forgive us our sins as we have forgiven others theirs''.......That is a completely differant context as none of us can save anyone...Only God can save.......


Further more....When a person is born again the Holy Spirit possess the person and reveals the truth of Who Jesus is...One of which that Jesus is God.....The Holy Spirit reveals truth....

Matt 9:6 But that you may know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sinsâ€Ââ€â€then He said to the paralytic, “Arise, take up your bed, and go to your house.â€Â


Christ Crucified
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, did not come with excellence of speech or of wisdom declaring to you the testimony of God. 2 For I determined not to know anything among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified. 3 I was with you in weakness, in fear, and in much trembling. 4 And my speech and my preaching were not with persuasive words of human wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5 that your faith should not be in the wisdom of men but in the power of God.


Spiritual Wisdom
1 COR 2
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.â€Â
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?†But we have the mind of Christ.
NKJV

When I was Born Again I knew Jesus was God....This truth was not taught to me by men, but by the Holy Spirit......

 

[cyberjosh]

mutz!

Well, God knows your heart, not me. I sure hope you and Imagican are saved, but I'll have to vote for number 1.

I'll explain my reasoning too:

We know Jesus is all good, He is the truth, He is the life, and He is the way. I only believe God can be that, so... I have to vote for number 1.

I concur.

I too. That's probably the shortest, best, and most succinct way I've ever heard it put. Very good sir!


God Bless,

~Josh

 

[Solo]

This is contradictory. It is the very same argument that "hyper-Pentecostals/Charasmatics" use - speaking in tongues isn't necessary for salvation but the evidence that one is saved (ie. filled with the Spirit) is that they speak in tongues. This arugment means that one is saved after they are saved.

This would be the same as saying that one doesn't need to believe Jesus is Lord or believe in his death and resurrection or that they are a sinner in need of repentance for salvation, but that as long as they believe those things after they are saved, then that is evidence that they are saved. It makes no sense.

I am just a humble Southern Baptist who did not believe that Jesus was anything other than the Son of God until after I was born again.

Did Thomas know Jesus to be God before or after he believed?

24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25 The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe. 26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.
John 20:24-29

How can one who is only a natural man who does not understand anything spriritual know that Jesus is God prior to being born again of the Spirit of God?

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth F6 all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
1 Corinthians 2:13-16

 

[lovely]

Hi mutz,

I know we have had discussions on this, and I don't want to go through them all again. Knowing Christ is knowing who He is, and living in that belief, or knowledge, by faith.

I think the verses in 1 John speak to these things.

Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, and those that do not, are of the spirit of the anitchrist. The latter is some sort of counterfeit doctrine, and it may be verty subtle, but it is up to me to share the Truth for the sake of Jesus. Christ came in the flesh. I think we need to really know what that means, and who Christ is. Because I love you, and MEC too, I warn you both strongly that there is an eternal covenant at work, and Christ is the eternal Son of God, and God...He is the Word, who was with God, and God, come to man in the form of man, as man, and rose again. I have mentioned Hebrews 1 before, where the Father does refer to the Son as His God. It is my understanding in the pages of Scripture that Christ's nature, as God, is why the belief of Him coming in the flesh is so amazing, important, and necessary.

I think that John also tells us that the evidence is the love in us that causes us to be obedient to God's commands...I am referring to 1 John here again...and mutz I know you are familar with these verses. I do not want to turn this into a Trinity debate, I know we do not agree on Trinity, or 1 John's meaning as far as the Christ come in the flesh part, but I wanted to say that I believe that Scripture teaches Jesus (God) came in the flesh, and that the Holy Spirit also communicates this witness of who Christ is to us. For me, this is a divide, because of the Word of God, and these verses, and when the topic is addressed I must remain truthful to that even if it causes offense.

I pray that you, MEC, and others see this at some point, or are restored to it, because I believe the Truth of it is vital to salvation. Please do not think I say this to hurt anyone, or anger them, but only to adhere to what I believe is the Truth of the Word, and to give you a warning in Love to revisit the matter. For me, to offend others because of my desire to uphold this Truth of who Christ is hard, but it is not something I can avoid and be honest. If I knew that Christ was not God, then I would not worship Him...as one who keeps the commandments, in love, as John put forth as the evidence of a true believer. Thou shall have no other God's before me is Truth, and there is no lie in it...if it is okay to worship Christ...bow before Him...then, it is because He is God.

The Lord bless all of you.

 

[jgredline]

Lovely
All I can say is WOW!!!!!

Thank you for that awe some Holy Spirit inspired post.....I literally got chills reading it..

Javier

 

[MarkT]

I suppose the image of God in human form isn't good enough then? Jesus said love God, follow him. It's simple. I tell you, strive to enter by the narrow door. Many will seek to enter but will not be able. I guess most of you can't see how this applies to you, perhaps, because it doesn't.

Being a Son, Jesus was appointed a priest. I guess the main argument or lack of knowledge is about who Jesus was before he was born. What does Paul say? 'have this mind, which you have in Christ Jesus ... he was in the form of God ... but he didn't count equality with God a thing to be grasped' In other words he was not in rebellion like Satan. Jesus was a Son before he was born. He was sent by the Father. How many of you have this mind?

So why was he sent? He was sent to tell us who we are and to show us the way. Yes God is our Father. Now we know but we didn't know before he told us. We had no idea.

Peter didn't say Jesus was God. Those words did not escape his lips. And yet that's pretty much what people believe. The truth that the church is built on is that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God but you don't hear. You only hear what you want to hear. Jesus said, 'Why do you call me good. Only God is good.' He didn't count himself equal to God. In fact he said, 'I am the Son of God.' Why do you call me good? He said he came from the Father. He said he was the true vine and the Father was the vinedresser. The Father produced him.

This is not that difficult but your understanding has to come from God. Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one'. He had the Father's mind; his name, his image, his power, his authority, his will, just as we have his mind and I suspect we will also be revealed to be in his image as well in time.

Now, those who accused him of blasphemy were devils. Apparently many of you are therefore in agreement with them. Jesus never said he was the true God. Paul wrote, 'he emptied himself', which means he gave up his immortality ... to become human. So he was immortal. Then he wasn't. And God raised him from the dead just as he will raise us from the dead. Isn't it enough that God showed you the way by making his Word one of us?

I guess it's the will of God that you should stick to the second person of the Trinity concept. It's not that bad I guess.

 

[MarkT]

The main problem with believing that one only has to believe Jesus is the "Son of God" for salvation, is that then Mormons and JWs, among others, are also saved despite their vastly different understandings of what "Son of God" means. And these both vary from orthodox Christianity.

They are as far as I know. See God weighs the spirit. As long as the foundation is Ok, the man will be saved but the knowledge of God which didn't come from God will be burned up. So all kinds are compelled into the church, both good and bad, sheep and goats. I would have you keep this in mind; images are created by words. To grow into the image of Christ, seek the words of God. Treasure them up in your heart, 'For the LORD gives wisdom; from his mouth come knowledge and understanding.'

Did you know a prophet is called a son of man? The word of God came to the prophets. So what does the 'Son of God' mean?