Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[Gabbylittleangel]

Little Angel
Many of the paraphrazes have it the way Jonathan quoted it. I imaging he is using the Good news bible or NLT...

Oh. I had not thought of that.

...The point being is this. God will use what ever means he will use including non believers..We have examples of this through out the scriptures......

Absolutely. It always makes me smile when He answers a question or gives some reassurance with a bumper sticker, or a billboard. And the non-believers in my life would be horrified to know how God has used them...

Jonathan...He prayed and the Holy Spirit led him to a scripture in a ''paraphraze'' to reveal the truth about Jesus Christ...That he indeed is ''GOD''
what better book to do that, than the Gospel of John....

jønathan,
I pray that others in the forum will follow your example to pray and ask God questions as they read. There is no better way to learn of the Lord.

 

[Imagican]

Gabby,

I ask YOU; Do YOU 'believe' that one MUST know 'trinity' in order to receive Salavation? and If so, how is this POSSIBLE if 'trinity' wasn't even a 'doctrine' until HUNDREDS of years AFTER Christs' death? The WORD 'trinity' is NOT EVEN IN scripture PERIOD. So, BEFORE the Bible was written, HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE that 'trinity' could POSSIBLY have been formulated? I KNOW that 'you' believe that 'trinity' IS revealed through SCRIPTURE. But, what about BEFORE the written Word? HOW could those that were NOT EVEN TAUGHT the WORD 'trinity' have ANY IDEA of this CONCEPT?

The FIRST converts were taught that Jesus WAS/IS God's SON. These were NOT taught that Jesus WAS God Himself. To even 'state' this is to state something that COMPLETELY contradicts scripture.

So, were the apostles 'saved'? Were their deciples 'saved'? And IF SO, HOW, if one MUST know 'trinity' in order to receive Salvation?

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby,

I ask YOU; Do YOU 'believe' that one MUST know 'trinity' in order to receive Salavation? and If so, how is this POSSIBLE if 'trinity' wasn't even a 'doctrine' until HUNDREDS of years AFTER Christs' death? The WORD 'trinity' is NOT EVEN IN scripture PERIOD. So, BEFORE the Bible was written, HOW DO YOU SUPPOSE that 'trinity' could POSSIBLY have been formulated? I KNOW that 'you' believe that 'trinity' IS revealed through SCRIPTURE. But, what about BEFORE the written Word? HOW could those that were NOT EVEN TAUGHT the WORD 'trinity' have ANY IDEA of this CONCEPT?

The FIRST converts were taught that Jesus WAS/IS God's SON. These were NOT taught that Jesus WAS God Himself. To even 'state' this is to state something that COMPLETELY contradicts scripture.

So, were the apostles 'saved'? Were their deciples 'saved'? And IF SO, HOW, if one MUST know 'trinity' in order to receive Salvation?

MEC

Hi Imagican, this is a bit of something that I wrote earlier. 1 John 2:23 is pretty clear.

...
By the way, I am convinced that as long as one believes that Jesus is the Son of God, and they have repented of their sin and asked Jesus to be Lord of their life, then they are born again, saved, and on their way to heaven. Praise God that I did not need to become perfect in anything in order to get saved. God is not looking for loopholes to keep people out of heaven, He has opened the doors looking to get people in.

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

In another post, I quoted several Scriptures that explain why I believe in the Holy Trinity.

1Jo 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

Jhn 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him,...

Jhn 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

Luk 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

Isa 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

Plus the countless verses that refer to the Holy Spirit as the Spirit of God, and the Spirit of Christ...

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

1Cr 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and [that] the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

1Pe 1:11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

Believing who Jesus is, is important. Many cults would have us believe that Jesus is an angel, or simply a prophet, a good man etc. Scripture does not give us much room to believe false doctrines. It does give us plenty of room to learn and to grow. This is why I had started a thread trying to understand what you 'non-Trinitarians' beleive about the Holy Spirit.

While I believe that The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one, I believe that is a doctrine that one learns at some point after they are saved, if ever. There is so much about God that we may never know in this life time. None of it is necessary for salvation. The things that are necessary for salvation are pretty much outlined in most of the 'How to get saved' type of tracts and sermons.
Jesus referred to himself most often as "The Son of Man". If knowing Him as "God in the flesh" was a key to salvation, He would have said it often and loudly.

There are a lot of things that I believe about Jesus Christ. He can turn water into wine. He can walk on water. He can feed thousands of people with just a bit of fish and bread, He can lay hands on the sick and they are healed. He can speak a word over the sick, and they are healed. He can raise people from the dead. On and on I could list things I believe about Jesus. While I believe that all of them are true, I also believe that none of them are essential to getting saved. All of them are wonderful things to learn about the Saviour.

Even though the "Thief on the Cross" thing is history, you all got me wondering about something. Just how little can a person know and still enter heaven? When I came to the Lord, I was not even a toddler. I believe that He had His hand on me as an infant, simply because of the extreme circumstances I was born in. I have no idea how early in life He reaches 'normal' people.

Whenever I am attempting to lead someone to the Lord, I often make a statement such as this: " First, you need to repent of your sin, and ask God for forgiveness. Next, the Bible says that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus Christ is Lord, and you believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
I then challenge them as to how serious they are.
"I don't think it is a good idea to claim anyone as the Lord over your life unless you know Him well enough to ask Him to do that."

So, I am going to toss the question out to you guys. How little can someone know and still be saved?

 

[jgredline]

j,

SEE!!! You would quote the Bible. Do you NOT realize that the apostles did NOT have a Bible? Do you NOT realize that what is STATED in The Word was STATED BEFORE it was EVER written DOWN? That for a THOUSAND YEARS or so there WAS NO WRITTEN WORD for the PEOPLE?

Mec
You have got to be kidding.....: Do I really need to comment on this? I am in :o ....You have now resorted to chastizing me for using the bible....Interesting....

If you were to go back and read your post, I believe you will see that you have some strange theology.....

 

[MarkT]

It is interesting that Jesus is only mentioned twice in the three books of Theophilus of Antioch, and these two references of Jesus that are mentioned speak of Moses' successor Joshua in the format of him being Jesus, son of Nun. These references are found in the 24th chapter of the third book. There are no references to Jesus in all of the writings of Theophilus of Antioch.

Neither is Christ mentioned even once in the three books of Theophilus of Antioch, nor is Son of God mentioned in any of the three books of Theophilus.

Consider the writing I posted. I like the way he brings Genesis to light by bringing 'Hebrews' to bear on the question of God being contained.

I haven't seen any wisdom in you Solo ... or insight.

 

[Imagican]

j,

So, you find my offering 'humerous'? I offer 'serious' comment in a LOGICAL and PRACTICAL manor and you would 'laugh'?

Ok, so you not only take the Bible OUT OF CONTEXT, but would also ridicule what I 'say' out of context as well? You didn't UNDERSTAND what I was saying? You found NOTHING in my post compeling enough to even offer an rebuttle except to ridicule what you 'take out of context'?

I see j. It IS some kind of 'contest' huh? Instead of being concerned with TRUTH, you would rather defend your 'belief' REGARDLESS. Says alot for such doctrine that it CAN'T be defended through 'EVIDENCE', but one would RATHER use a tactic of 'personal attack'. Just another one of those things that makes one want to go..............Hmmmm...........

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Gabby,

I appreciate your honesty and understanding. You show a 'wisdom' that many here are UNWILLING to accept. That speaks VOLUMES of your relationship and understanding of God.

Thank you for 'reminding' me of your previous post. I get 'caught up' in my defensive posture sometimes to the point that I 'lash out' without being COMPLETELY sure of what others 'DO' believe. My apologies for being so 'blunt' in my last response. I believe that, even though our understanding differs concerning the deity of Christ, I assume that you DO see that I am TRYING to accept an understanding of God and His Son to the 'best of my ability'. That it differs does NOT take away from what has been offered Through the Spirit.

I notice that you encourage others to PRAY and ASK for guidance. That is a 'good' thing. Some would simply accept what others offer that 'sounds' good and run with it. That is NOT good. God IS willing to offer understanding to ANYONE that DESIRES such with an open heart and a humble desire to KNOW what will 'benefit them' and others that they may 'pass on' such information to. So long as one's questions do NOT deal with information that one desires for 'negative' reasons, God IS willing to reveal that which makes us stronger in the 'faith'.

MEC

 

[Free]

I notice that you encourage others to PRAY and ASK for guidance. That is a 'good' thing. Some would simply accept what others offer that 'sounds' good and run with it. That is NOT good. God IS willing to offer understanding to ANYONE that DESIRES such with an open heart and a humble desire to KNOW what will 'benefit them' and others that they may 'pass on' such information to. So long as one's questions do NOT deal with information that one desires for 'negative' reasons, God IS willing to reveal that which makes us stronger in the 'faith'.

And I have humbly prayed with an open heart and God has shown me that the Trinity is true. He really does reveal things to make our faith stronger.

 

[Solo]

I haven't seen any wisdom in you Solo ... or insight.

You wouldn't; the natural man only finds foolishness in the spiritual things of God.

 

[MarkT]

And I have humbly prayed with an open heart and God has shown me that the Trinity is true. He really does reveal things to make our faith stronger.

It depends on what you mean by the Trinity. We all believe in the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. The question is, is the Trinity, as it was formulated by the Nicene Council, equal to the words of God. In other words can you see in the light of this doctrine? I don't think so. The Trinity doctrine does not equate to the words of God. Seeing in this light is the way that looks right but it is the road to hell.

The ones who preach it are open tombs and empty graves. Christ is a stumbling block for them.

When we speak the truth, it separates us from the false so that there is a sharp division and a wide gulf between us. Instead of having the love of God in them, they excluded people. They burned them as heretics. You had to watch what you said and even how you said it. Instead of the Spirit of peace, they made war. Instead of the words of God they gathered wood and hay and stubble into their hearts; kindling for the coming fire. They will not escape. Their fear of God is learned by rote. They have no life in them. We see the same spirit in the ones who exclude us and condemn us. But rejoice when they exclude you and rejoice when they accuse you falsely because they did the same to our Lord and we must be falsely accused ourselves to share in the Lords table. Life is tough. That's the way it is supposed to be. Rejoice when you are scorned and slandered for so they did it to our Lord. Look out when people call you great and heap praises on you.

To some is a little given. To others is more given. When Jesus taught the crowd, the more he gave them the more they fell away until only the twelve were left and then even the devil Judas fell away. This is the will of God and the way, that they may be seen and revealed for who they are and they will turn on you and even betray you as they did our Lord.

Relax my brothers. You're not going to change them.

 

[Solo]

Those who are led of the spirit of antichrist know not JESUS CHRIST as LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh, nor do they know the FATHER LORD JEHOVAH GOD, nor do they know the SPIRIT LORD JEHOVAH GOD, nor do they know the LOVE OF LORD JEHOVAH GOD. They have yet to give a rendering of the Scriptures that have been posted showing that there is ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD, the LORD OF LORDS.

Why?

Because they are deceivers. If they were true believers, they would hear the Word of the LORD GOD and believe, but they continue in the darkness because they would not have their deeds revealed as evil.

Again, Moses declares that there is ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD:

• 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

Jesus also speaks the truth of there being ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD:

• And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:29

The Apostles make it clear that JESUS CHRIST is ONE LORD JEHOVAH GOD:

• But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8:6
  
  One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephesians 4:5
  
  1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1
  
  26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27 Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28 And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:26-29

Who is the LORD of all LORDS? JESUS CHRIST. Let us look at Zechariah 14. Note: The Hebrew word translated LORD in English is JEHOVAH.

• 1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-9

It is pretty clear that Zechariah is prophesying about the LORD JEHOVAH GOD as John is prophesying in Revelation in the following verse of Scripture:

• 11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

Keep in mind that those who deceive must reject and call the Words of Almighty God a lie. I have yet to see any of these speak concerning the Scriptures that I have been led to post. May God bless those who are being called to be the children of God, and may God protect each of your with His love and hedge of protection from this day onward. May the LORD GOD ALMIGHTY bind up the evil spirit of antichrist from this board, and reveal the truth to the sheep as they are being fed the Word of God in the name of JESUS CHRIST. May the evil spirits be rebuked by the LORD JESUS CHRIST.

 

[MarkT]

So, I am going to toss the question out to you guys. How little can someone know and still be saved?

As little or as much as God gives you to know, that's how much you will know. But it appears that even in those who say they believe in the Trinity there is kindness. And God weighs the spirit. So it appears that among them there are both goats and sheep. I like your spirit Gabby. I would call you blessed. I've found other Trinitarians as well with a kind spirit.

 

[jønathan]

Praise God for your being drawn to the Father God Almighty through His Son Jesus Christ. May you continue in His Word and be fruitful in your service to Him. He will bless you more fully than you can even imagine.

Let me know what you think about Isaiah 58, and also Proverbs 3.

God bless you,
Michael

Thanks for the passages Solo! I just finished reading them and they both meant a lot to me. As I read Isaiah 58 I even became a little teary-eyed because I related to what it was saying pretty well.

Since I've begun reading my Bible again it has been so more fulfilling - last night I asked a question and had it answered through my reading, it was awesome.

To continue on in this topic, I also came across this last night:
Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
John 14:8-10

Jesus, while talking to Philip also says that he is God.

I think joining this forum was definitely one of the many steps I needed to take in getting some guidance on building my faith. I look forward to getting to know everyone better and learning more and reading more. Have a good day everyone.

Oh, and gabby, I currently have a Bible that uses the New Living Translation.

 

[jgredline]

Thanks for the passages Solo! I just finished reading them and they both meant a lot to me. As I read Isaiah 58 I even became a little teary-eyed because I related to what it was saying pretty well.

Since I've begun reading my Bible again it has been so more fulfilling - last night I asked a question and had it answered through my reading, it was awesome.

To continue on in this topic, I also came across this last night:
Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
John 14:8-10

Jesus, while talking to Philip also says that he is God.

I think joining this forum was definitely one of the many steps I needed to take in getting some guidance on building my faith. I look forward to getting to know everyone better and learning more and reading more. Have a good day everyone.

Oh, and gabby, I currently have a Bible that uses the New Living Translation.

Amen brother....

 

[Solo]

Thanks for the passages Solo! I just finished reading them and they both meant a lot to me. As I read Isaiah 58 I even became a little teary-eyed because I related to what it was saying pretty well.

Since I've begun reading my Bible again it has been so more fulfilling - last night I asked a question and had it answered through my reading, it was awesome.

To continue on in this topic, I also came across this last night:
Jesus replied, "Philip, don't you even yet know who I am, even after all the time I have been with you? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father! So why are you asking to see him? Don't you believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me?
John 14:8-10

Jesus, while talking to Philip also says that he is God.

I think joining this forum was definitely one of the many steps I needed to take in getting some guidance on building my faith. I look forward to getting to know everyone better and learning more and reading more. Have a good day everyone.

Oh, and gabby, I currently have a Bible that uses the New Living Translation.

Jonathan,
I was in the same spot that you are in at this time back when I was a young believer when I read Isaiah 58 for the first time. I was overjoyed as I read this portion of Scripture. I then began reading the Bible from the beginning for the first time after that. I began in Genesis and read a chapter at a time until I was through the entire Bible. I did not understand all of what I read, but I read it anyway. Ezekiel was a very tough read for me at that time. I really grew as I read the Bible from start to finish, and the Holy Spirit continues to add to my understanding and wisdom as I continue to read.

May God bless you in all that you do.
Michael

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Gabby,

I appreciate your honesty and understanding. You show a 'wisdom' that many here are UNWILLING to accept. That speaks VOLUMES of your relationship and understanding of God.

Thank you for 'reminding' me of your previous post. I get 'caught up' in my defensive posture sometimes to the point that I 'lash out' without being COMPLETELY sure of what others 'DO' believe. My apologies for being so 'blunt' in my last response. I believe that, even though our understanding differs concerning the deity of Christ, I assume that you DO see that I am TRYING to accept an understanding of God and His Son to the 'best of my ability'. That it differs does NOT take away from what has been offered Through the Spirit.

I notice that you encourage others to PRAY and ASK for guidance. That is a 'good' thing. Some would simply accept what others offer that 'sounds' good and run with it. That is NOT good. God IS willing to offer understanding to ANYONE that DESIRES such with an open heart and a humble desire to KNOW what will 'benefit them' and others that they may 'pass on' such information to. So long as one's questions do NOT deal with information that one desires for 'negative' reasons, God IS willing to reveal that which makes us stronger in the 'faith'.

MEC

Thank you :-D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

As little or as much as God gives you to know, that's how much you will know. But it appears that even in those who say they believe in the Trinity there is kindness. And God weighs the spirit. So it appears that among them there are both goats and sheep. I like your spirit Gabby. I would call you blessed. I've found other Trinitarians as well with a kind spirit.

Thank you :-D

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

BACK Ego, Back! :smt065

 

[jgredline]

This thread will be temporarily locked until I have had a chance to clean it up. :robot: