Is our belief in who Jesus is, necessary for salvation

[Imagican]

Solo,

I have NEVER denied the deity of Jesus Christ. It's just that MY understanding of the 'deity' differs from what you have accepted. Jesus Christ IS The Son of God. The ONLY begotten of God. The LAMB of God. The Son of man. A LINK between God and man. The Savior. The PRINCE of Peace.

You would state that He is simply God in the flesh. NO WAY. He is the REPRESENTATIVE of God TO mankind. A willingly and OBEDIENT Son. One of a kind LIKE God. Born with an inheritance FROM the Father. A name ABOVE all names, (EXCEPT GOD HIMSELF). Whom Christ OPENLY acknowledged was GREATER than He. For whom ALL His power, and ALL His miracles eminated FROM. Given the ABILITY to work miracles through the POWER of God. Praying constantly TO THE FATHER. And 'giving' us the LIVING Word of His Father.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

This goes out to the folk who do not believe Jesus to be God....Lets see you try and squirm out of these....
Here are some scriptures to chew on...



Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).

Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.



Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."

Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."

I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.



Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).

The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.



When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).

And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth





The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).

Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..

 

[jønathan]

Although I've been a Christian for most of my life, I still consider myself a baby in the faith. Just recently I've started to read my Bible again and I've asked God to reveal to me what he wants me to learn and understand whenever I sit down to read. I started in John tonight, where someone recommended I begin, and I came across this:

No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him.
John 1:18

I haven't been reading too long and I already feel that I've learned and read so much - this might be due to asking for Him to help me understand what I come across.

 

[jgredline]

Although I've been a Christian for most of my life, I still consider myself a baby in the faith. Just recently I've started to read my Bible again and I've asked God to reveal to me what he wants me to learn and understand whenever I sit down to read. I started in John tonight, where someone recommended I begin, and I came across this:

No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him.
John 1:18

I haven't been reading too long and I already feel that I've learned and read so much - this might be due to asking for Him to help me understand what I come across.

jønathan
Trully the Holy Spirit has revealed to you who Jesus is...GOD...
May the Lord continue to bless you and keep you...

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

I haven't been reading too long and I already feel that I've learned and read so much - this might be due to asking for Him to help me understand what I come across.

That is exactly the way to do it. To read without talking to the Lord can lead to all sorts of misunderstandings. Knowing that He is right there with you as you read, waiting to answer your questions is a great way to gain the wisdom, knowledge, and understanding that Proverbs tells us that we are to be seeking.

No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him.
John 1:18

While I agree with this jønathan, I have to ask what version you are using. All of the ones that I looked at say something to the effect of this:

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. KJV

 

[Solo]

Solo,

I have NEVER denied the deity of Jesus Christ. It's just that MY understanding of the 'deity' differs from what you have accepted. Jesus Christ IS The Son of God. The ONLY begotten of God. The LAMB of God. The Son of man. A LINK between God and man. The Savior. The PRINCE of Peace.

You would state that He is simply God in the flesh. NO WAY. He is the REPRESENTATIVE of God TO mankind. A willingly and OBEDIENT Son. One of a kind LIKE God. Born with an inheritance FROM the Father. A name ABOVE all names, (EXCEPT GOD HIMSELF). Whom Christ OPENLY acknowledged was GREATER than He. For whom ALL His power, and ALL His miracles eminated FROM. Given the ABILITY to work miracles through the POWER of God. Praying constantly TO THE FATHER. And 'giving' us the LIVING Word of His Father.

MEC

The Scriptures are clear the the Jesus Christ is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh. There is ONE LORD according to Zechariah 14:9.

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:9

Jesus makes it clear that there is only ONE LORD GOD:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: Mark 12:29

Paul makes it clear that there is only ONE LORD:

But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him. 1 Corinthians 8:6

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, Ephesians 4:5

Moses also declared unto all of Israel that is only ONE LORD GOD.

4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD: Deuteronomy 6:4

The Apostle John teaches that Jesus Christ is the Word and IS THE LORD GOD. He also declares that JESUS CHRIST CREATED ALL THINGS as the Apostle Paul declares that JESUS CHRIST CREATED ALL THINGS IN HEAVEN AND EARTH.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. John 1:1-5

For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Colossians 1:16

Note that the full council of God reveals that Jesus is not only the Son of God and the Son of Man, but that He is the LORD JEHOVAH GOD come in the flesh. JESUS CHRIST IS THE WORD, THE LORD OF ALL LORDS, THE KING OF ALL KINGS. Only the spirit of antichrist can reject these truths.

11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war. 12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself. 13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS. Revelation 19:11-16

The writings of Zechariah the Prophet of JEHOVAH GOD declares that the LORD JEHOVAH is ONE LORD and come to defeat the enemies of God with all of the saints.

1 Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee. 2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle. 4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south. 5 And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee. 6 And it shall come to pass in that day, that the light shall not be clear, nor dark: 7 But it shall be one day which shall be known to the LORD, not day, nor night: but it shall come to pass, that at evening time it shall be light. 8 And it shall be in that day, that living waters shall go out from Jerusalem; half of them toward the former sea, and half of them toward the hinder sea: in summer and in winter shall it be. 9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. Zechariah 14:1-8

Only those who do not have the Holy Spirit can not declare that JESUS CHRIST IS THE LORD JEHOVAH GOD.

... and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. 1 Corinthians 12:3

 

[Solo]

Although I've been a Christian for most of my life, I still consider myself a baby in the faith. Just recently I've started to read my Bible again and I've asked God to reveal to me what he wants me to learn and understand whenever I sit down to read. I started in John tonight, where someone recommended I begin, and I came across this:

No one has ever seen God. But his only Son, who is himself God, is near to the Father's heart; he has told us about him.
John 1:18

I haven't been reading too long and I already feel that I've learned and read so much - this might be due to asking for Him to help me understand what I come across.

Praise God for your being drawn to the Father God Almighty through His Son Jesus Christ. May you continue in His Word and be fruitful in your service to Him. He will bless you more fully than you can even imagine.

Let me know what you think about Isaiah 58, and also Proverbs 3.

God bless you,
Michael

 

[Solo]

Hi Solo,
It seems as if MarkT skipped my post and went straight to the one with your name on it. Feel free to copy and paste the verses I posted. :

The verses I posted speak of Jesus before his birth in Bethlehem. They speak of The child that was born, ie: THE SON that was given as being the Mighty God and EVERLASTING FATHER. Isaiah had no problem with the concept that God can be the Father as well as the Son.

Jesus said he saw satan fall, and Scripture is pretty clear that satan fell before the birth of Jesus. Peter wrote of how the OT prophets had the Spirit of Christ in them. John wrote "these three are one".

See if you can get anywhere with those Scriptures. (I didn't).

By the way, I am convinced that as long as one believes that Jesus is the Son of God, and they have repented of their sin and asked Jesus to be Lord of their life, then they are born again, saved, and on their way to heaven. Praise God that I did not need to become perfect in anything in order to get saved. God is not looking for loopholes to keep people out of heaven, He has opened the doors looking to get people in.

1Jo 2:23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: [(but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also].

Hello Gabbylittleangel,
It is not up to us to make the horse drink of the water once we lead them to the river; it is up to the horse to make up his own mind to drink. One thing to remember is to pray for these, and to recognize the truths that Jesus teaches in John 3; those in darkness do not want to come into the light as it will manifest their deeds and they will be reproved.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:17-21

God bless you and keep you in His joy,
Michael

 

[jgredline]

Little Angel
Many of the paraphrazes have it the way Jonathan quoted it. I imaging he is using the Good news bible or NLT...The point being is this. God will use what ever means he will use including non believers..We have examples of this through out the scriptures...


Jonathan...He prayed and the Holy Spirit led him to a scripture in a ''paraphraze'' to reveal the truth about Jesus Christ...That he indeed is ''GOD''
what better book to do that, than the Gospel of John....

 

[MarkT]

Gabby

I was referring to the concept that was developed in 325 at Nicene. Before that in 180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch wrote a letter to Autocycus. I like it! Excellent letter! I wonder if he was the same Theophilus who received the Gospel of Luke. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Here's just one example of an excellent understanding.

CHAP. XXII.--WHY GOD IS SAID TO HAVE WALKED.

You will say, then, to me: "You said that God ought not to be contained in a place, and how do you now say that He walked in Paradise?" Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam. For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Not as the poets and writers of myths talk of the sons of gods begotten from intercourse [with women], but as truth expounds, the Word, that always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason. And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, "The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence." The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

 

[Solo]

Gabby

I was referring to the concept that was developed in 325 at Nicene. Before that in 180 AD, Theophilus of Antioch wrote a letter to Autocycus. I like it! Excellent letter! I wonder if he was the same Theophilus who received the Gospel of Luke. Wouldn't surprise me at all. Here's just one example of an excellent understanding.

CHAP. XXII.--WHY GOD IS SAID TO HAVE WALKED.

You will say, then, to me: "You said that God ought not to be contained in a place, and how do you now say that He walked in Paradise?" Hear what I say. The God and Father, indeed, of all cannot be contained, and is not found in a place, for there is no place of His rest; but His Word, through whom He made all things, being His power and His wisdom, assuming the person of the Father and Lord of all, went to the garden in the person of God, and conversed with Adam. For the divine writing itself teaches us that Adam said that he had heard the voice. But what else is this voice but the Word of God, who is also His Son? Not as the poets and writers of myths talk of the sons of gods begotten from intercourse [with women], but as truth expounds, the Word, that always exists, residing within the heart of God. For before anything came into being He had Him as a counsellor, being His own mind and thought. But when God wished to make all that He determined on, He begot this Word, uttered, the first-born of all creation, not Himself being emptied of the Word [Reason], but having begotten Reason, and always conversing with His Reason. And hence the holy writings teach us, and all the spirit-bearing [inspired] men, one of whom, John, says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God," showing that at first God was alone, and the Word in Him. Then he says, "The Word was God; all things came into existence through Him; and apart from Him not one thing came into existence." The Word, then, being God, and being naturally produced from God, whenever the Father of the universe wills, He sends Him to any place; and He, coming, is both heard and seen, being sent by Him, and is found in a place.

It is interesting that Jesus is only mentioned twice in the three books of Theophilus of Antioch, and these two references of Jesus that are mentioned speak of Moses' successor Joshua in the format of him being Jesus, son of Nun. These references are found in the 24th chapter of the third book. There are no references to Jesus in all of the writings of Theophilus of Antioch.

Neither is Christ mentioned even once in the three books of Theophilus of Antioch, nor is Son of God mentioned in any of the three books of Theophilus.

Jesus is mentioned 95 times in Luke, and 935 times in the New Testament.

Matthew - 170 times
Mark - 90 times
Luke - 95 times
John - 243 times
Acts - 67 times
Romans - 38 times
1 Corinthians - 24 times
2 Corinthians - 16 times
Galatians - 16 times
Ephesians - 20 times
Philippians - 21 times
Colossians - 8 times
1 Thessalonians - 15 times
2 Thessalonians - 11 times
1 Timothy - 13 times
2 Timothy - 13 times
Titus - 4 times
Philemon - 7 times
Hebrews - 14 times
James - 2 times
1 Peter - 10 times
2 Peter - 8 times
1 John - 12 times
2 John - 2 times
Jude - 4 times
Revelation - 12 times

Total 935 times


Christ is mentioned 12 times in Luke, and 530 times in the New Testament.

Matthew - 17 times
Mark - 7 times
Luke - 12 times
John - 20 times
Acts - 30 times
Romans - 68 times
1 Corinthians - 59 times
2 Corinthians - 45 times
Galatians - 36 times
Ephesians - 43 times
Philippians - 36 times
Colossians - 24 times
1 Thessalonians - 13 times
2 Thessalonians - 12 times
1 Timothy - 15 times
2 Timothy - 14 times
Titus - 4 times
Philemon - 7 times
Hebrews - 13 times
James - 2 times
1 Peter - 19 times
2 Peter - 7 times
1 John - 10 times
2 John - 3 times
Jude - 4 times
Revelation - 10 times

Total 530 times


Son of God is mentioned 7 times in Luke, and 46 times in the New Testament.

 

[Imagican]

This goes out to the folk who do not believe Jesus to be God....Lets see you try and squirm out of these....
Here are some scriptures to chew on...



Gideon feared that he would die because, in seeing the Angel of the Lord , he had seen God (Judg. 6:22, 23).

Sensing that he was talking to the Lord, Gideon asked for a sign. Then he prepared an offering of a young goat and of unleavened bread. When the Angel ... touched the offering with his staff and it was consumed by fire, Gideon knew he was in the Lords presence and feared he would die. But the Lord assured him with the words Peace be with you, and Gideon there upon built an altar and named the place Jehovah-Shalom (The-Lord-Is-Peace). Now I ask. Would an Angel who is not God allow himself to be sacraficed to? The Answer is NO. The Angel of the Lord is clearly Jesus Christ.



Judges 6:22-23 Now Gideon perceived that He was the Angel of the Lord. So Gideon said, "Alas, O Lord God! For I have seen the Angel of the Lord face to face."

Then the Lord said to him, "Peace be with you; do not fear, you shall not die."

I don't see how I can explian it more clearly than the scriptures.

No need to 'squirm' here. NO MAN HAS EVER "SEEN" God. BUT, there have been MANY that witnessed the presence of The Son.


Jacob heard the Angel introduce Himself as the God of Bethel (Gen. 31:11-13).

The angel of God said to me in the dream, 'Jacob.' I answered, 'Here I am.' And he said, 'Look up and see that all the male goats mating with the flock are streaked, speckled or spotted, for I have seen all that Laban has been doing to you. I am the God of Bethel, where you anointed a pillar and where you made a vow to me. Enough said on this verse.



When blessing Joseph, Israel used the names “God†and “the Angel†interchangeably (Gen. 48:15, 16).

And he blessed Joseph, and said, God, before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac did walk, the God which fed me all my life long unto this day, The Angel which redeemed me from all evil (Who else could this Angel be other than the Lord Jesus Christ), bless the lads; and let my name be named on them, and the name of my fathers Abraham and Isaac; and let them grow bb grow: Heb. as fishes do increase into a multitude in the midst of the earth





The Angel of the Lord told Manoah that His name was Wonderful (Judg. 13:15-20), one of the names of God (Isa. 9:6).

Judges 13:15-20 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "Please let us detain You, and we will prepare a young goat for You." 16 And the Angel of the Lord said to Manoah, "Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the Lord." (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the Lord.) 17 Then Manoah said to the Angel of the Lord, "What is Your name, that when Your words come to pass we may honor You?" 18 And the Angel of the Lord said to him, "Why do you ask My name, seeing it is wonderful?"19 So Manoah took the young goat with the grain offering, and offered it upon the rock to the Lord. And He did a wondrous thing while Manoah and his wife looked on-- 20 it happened as the flame went up toward heaven from the altar--the Angel of the Lord ascended in the flame of the altar! When Manoah and his wife saw this, they fell on their faces to the ground. 21 When the Angel of the Lord appeared no more to Manoah and his wife, then Manoah knew that He was the Angel of the Lord. 22 And Manoah said to his wife, "We shall surely die, because we have seen God!" 23 But his wife said to him, "If the Lord had desired to kill us, He would not have accepted a burnt offering and a grain offering from our hands, nor would He have shown us all these things, nor would He have told us such things as these at this time." Again we see here the Pre-Incarnite Jesus Christ..

I don't know what your point is here. I have openly STATED that I BELIEVE that Christ was THE SON 'BEFORE' the creation of man. From OUR standpoint, that would make Christ both alpha and omega. But there is NO indication that Christ WAS God. And even the statements that you have offered ABOVE do NOT state that Jesus WAS God, but by your own admission in such IS The Angel of God. A 'representative of sorts'. The AGENT of God.

Christ PRE-EXISTED man. For we KNOW that Christ was instrumental to 'man's' creation. That does NOT 'make' Christ God. For EVERYTHING that Christ TOLD us concerning HIS relationship to God is that God IS HIS FATHER, as well as OURS, and that He IS God's SON.

WE are a 'part' of God. EVERYTHING is a 'part' of God. There is NOTHING that has been 'created' that was NOT created BY GOD. Even if Christ ALSO was instrumental in 'creating', it was THROUGH the POWER of God that this was possible. If God SO desired j, He could allow YOU to say to a mountain, 'Go Away' and that mountain would FLEE. Is it SO hard to undertand that He empowered His Son to ACT in HIS behalf?

MEC

 

[francisdesales]

WE are a 'part' of God. EVERYTHING is a 'part' of God.
MEC

Say what? We are "part" of God? Could you explain that? Did God become "different" after we were created because we didn't exist yet and were not part of Him yet?

Regards

 

[Imagican]

fran,

Perhaps I am too simple a man to understand your question. Are YOU questioning that WE too ARE a 'part' of God?

If this is the question, let me offer this;

WE WERE 'created' in the IMAGE of God BY God. This makes US a 'part' of God. Whether we 'choose' to acknoledge it or not, God KNOWS His Creation and His Creation IS a 'part' of Him. We ARE 'children of God'. That makes God OUR Father as well as the Father of Christ. Regardless of the 'method' of our creation. Regardless of agency, it WAS through the POWER of God that we were created IN HIS IMAGE. Now, WHAT IS God? Answer this and you TOO will KNOW the ESSENCE of the 'image'. For we KNOW that God IS Spirit so we were NOT created to LOOK like God. But there IS a distinguishing characteristic OF God that we were created in an EXACT image of.

Everything that God created IS a 'part' of God. For without Him BEING 'a part' of EVERYTHING He 'created', there would BE NOTHING. He IS the essence that exists in EVERYTHING that He created.

Satan is EVEN a 'part' of God. His rebelion didn't CHANGE his 'being', ONLY the essence of it. There is LITTLE doubt in my mind that even though Satan rebelled against God, God STILL has LOVE of him. If NOT, then Satan would ALREADY have 'been destroyed'. God has ALLOWED Satan to 'seal' his OWN DOOM through his 'choices', JUST as God allows US to DO THE SAME. IF God so chose, there could be CONTROL offered that would eliminate the 'free will' that He has GIVEN US. He LOVES us ENOUGH to ALLOW us to make OUR OWN CHOICES. Right or wrong. The JUDGEMENT IS HIS. And judge HE WILL. But like ANY good parent, he has allowed His children to make their OWN CHOICES.

Let me ask you fran, did GOD 'create' Satan the angel, (Lucifer, or WHATEVER name you choose)? Did Satan's power come FROM GOD? Are you UNAWARE of the 'why' of Satan's rebelion? For to UNDERSTAND 'who' Satan IS and HOW he PUT HIMSELF IN THE POSITION that he is IN, one MUST understand WHY.

The churches teach that Satan 'SIMPLY' desired to BE God. Ok, that is ONLY a TINY part of the Truth. It's MUCH more intricate than that. And the PROBLEM with the churches teaching is that FEW, if ANY of the 'so called fathers' of the churches EVEN cared to question the WHY of Satan's demise. Perhaps due to their OWN 'closeness' to this VERY essence of WHY. Not WANTING to 'look into the mirror'.

I'll give you a little HINT;

The TRUTH can be found in the story of Eve. She followed in HIS EXACT footsteps through his LEADING. She FELL in the EXACT 'way' that befell Satan. And THAT is HOW he contructed HER fall. Knowing EXACTLY 'how' she felt and WHAT it WAS that she DESIRED. He offered her the 'means' to OBTAIN exactly what she 'thought' she wanted.

So, WHAT did EVE want more than ANYTHING else? What did Satan PROMISE her? Answer these questions and you too will UNDERSSTAND the WHY of Satan's demise.

But, if ignorance is more condusive to one's mentality, then simply accept the 'fairy tale' concocted by the chuches. And DON'T get me wrong, there is MUCH solace in ignorance.

Oh, and a little more 'inside' information;

WHO does Satan HATE MORE than ANY OTHER? At WHO's NAME do EVEN the demons 'tremble'? God's? And WHO will DEFEAT Satan when the 'time comes'? Who has ALREADY defeated DEATH?

Answer these and you are ONE STEP CLOSER to an understanding of WHAT happened to Satan and, more important, WHY. Find an understanding with what has been offered HERE, and then one is able to 'go on' to the NEXT step in an understanding of 'what happened to Satan and WHY.

MEC

 

[Imagican]

Say what? We are "part" of God? Could you explain that? Did God become "different" after we were created because we didn't exist yet and were not part of Him yet?

Regards

Oh, ok, I 'think' I get it now. NO, God is ETERNAL. He does NOT 'change'. LOVE does NOT 'change'. It ENDURES.

Perhaps this will be better understood. God desired CHILDREN. Those with which He could SHARE His LOVE. THAT is WHY man was 'created'. We ARE children of God. I am quite sure that His love was 'shared in heaven'. But He desired something MORE. There is LITTLE room for doubt, (in MY mind and heart), that God shared His Love with the angels and with HIS SON PREVIOUS to the 'creation' of man. IF there was ANY change, it was in the shear VOLUME of Love that He could then offer upon man's creation.

And, that this LOVE was shared THROUGH Christ, FROM THE BEGINNING of man's creation, is not something that I would contest. Those that INSIST that Christ was IN a relationship with man PREVIOUS to 'taking on the flesh' are MOST LIKELY not completely off base. There is MUCH evidence that Christ was 'there for man' from the 'beginning of creation'. Simply NOT REVEALED as such until His 'taking on the flesh' and delivering the Word to God's children PERSONALLY.

Hope this explanation is in line with the questions that you asked.

MEC

 

[RyanReborn]

How does one explain the passage that says God does not sleep or slumber, yet Jesus is sleeping in Mark?

 

[Imagican]

I was out of town for a couple of days on a job. Durring this time 'away', I did MUCH study of the subject to which we debate. Out of the 'blue' came a 'revelation' of sorts. This I would like to share:

IF this Jesus IS God concept IS 'required' for ONE to 'be' saved, then this would have DENIED 'Salvation' to ALL mentioned in the NT. For there was NO teaching that Jesus WAS God to ALL that we have EVIDENCE of 'being saved'. NEVER did the apostles PREACH Jesus IS God. Quite the OPOSITE in FACT. They 'taught' that Jesus IS The 'Son of God'. PERIOD. There is NOT one instance where the Holy Spirit was delivered to those 'born again' where these were PREACHED to that Jesus IS God. Yet we have evidence of MANY, both Jew and Gentile, that WERE 'saved' by SIMPLY accepting what the apostles DID teach. And THAT BEING that Jesus Christ IS The Son of God.

Now, of WHAT spirit would the 'concept' come that teaches AGAINST this understanding? That would attempt to USURP the Truth? Attempt to 'take away' the 'truth' as offered by God, Christ and the apostles?

For IF 'trinity' is 'truth', then the Bible is NOT. For I KNOW that I am FORGIVEN of my sins through the Blood of Jesus Christ. Yet there are those that would outright STATE that this is NOT possible UNTIL I accept 'their' teaching that Jesus IS God. And I KNOW that they are WRONG. And the Bible backs up MY beliefs without room for 'doubt'. And NOT ONCE in ALL the NT was it taught that Jesus IS God and that this understanding IS NECESSARY to receive 'Salvation'.

I would suggest that those that would INSIST that it is THEY that are able to determine WHAT God desires and HOW He does HIS WORK re-evaluate their 'understanding'. Back up and 'start again' with a 'fresh' understanding that it is NOT 'their' understanding that brings about one being 'born again'; but through the workings of God through The Spirit that this IS possible. And NO amount of 'man-made' doctrine is able to change ONE BIT of the Truth that God offered through His Son. And there is NO man that can 'teach' another 'man-made' concepts that are able to forgive ONE SINGLE SIN.

Works are UNABLE to 'save' ANYONE. And beliefs are NO DIFFERENT. It is through The Spirit that we ARE able to be 'changed' by God. And if NOT for the visiting of this earth by His Son to 'deliver' to US His Word, there would BE NO SALVATION. And this was a 'gift'. NOT an 'earned' thing. NOT a 'thing' based on UNDERSTANDING. This was 'given' FREELY by Our Father and His Son.

So, for those that INSIST that one MUST 'believe in God' AS THEY DO. Rubbish. Rediculous and vain beyond comprehension to even THINK that ANY man is able to judge the heart of another.

We have ALREADY been TOLD that the BODY is formed of MANY parts. Those that insist on this 'trinity' are trying to USURP this understanding and insert instead the IDEA that we are ALL to be 'the same'. And IF one speaks out against this concept, they are then NOT part of the Body. How vain could one aspire to 'truly' BE?

And look at how DANGEROUS this type of mentality TRULY is. To shun one's brother over 'man-made' theology. Mysticism, Mythology, and philosophy? Useless information that can offer NOTHING short of confusion of TRUTH. The TRUTH is MUCH more simple than what 'man' would 'turn it into'.

'Trinity' Biblically sound or Catholic Baggage' was 'archieved' and it becomes more and more apprarent WHY. There ARE those that would PROTECT this 'man-made' doctrine in ANY way possible. And one of the BEST ways is to 'stiffle' the 'truth'. This is a 'doctrine' created through vanity and hate. It has NO place in the life or beliefs of the 'true' followers of the example that we were given through Jesus Christ. This doctrine has been responsible for MORE division of the Church than ANY OTHER EVER CREATED. Look at your history folks. Instead of simply BLINDLY accepting what the 'churches' TEACH, look back at what ensued upon the 'creation' of this doctrine. NOTHING of ANY benefit to The Church. ONLY DIVISION. And we were TOLD NOT TO LET THIS HAPPEN.

My preaching that Jesus Christ IS The Son of God offers NO division AT ALL. Only in the respect that it contradicts TRINITY. And it ONLY contradicts 'trinity' because 'trinity' is NOT what was taught by the apostles. it IS a 'different' doctrine than that LAID by the apostles. MANY have recognized this since it's introduction and MANY have been ostracized by the INSTITUTIONAL religious order. Mainly the CC in the past and NOW it seems as if this mentality has permeated the MAJOR denominations as well.

I have YET to state that those that 'accept trinity' CANNOT be saved. I leave that up to the individual to discern. But I have been accused of NOT POSSIBLY being able to KNOW God through His Son for ONE REASON; the acceptance, (of those that would so accuse), of this 'trinity'. Can't you SEE how divisive this doctrine TRULY is? It would take ONE brother and 'turn him against another'. THIS IS FALSE TEACHING NO MATTER WHAT. For we have been COMMANDED to LOVE our brothers and sisters REGARDLESS of their BELIEFS. We are to LOVE OUR ENEMIES AS OURSELVES. So LOOK at what this 'trinity' DOES to this concept. It COMPLETELY DISTROYS that which we have been commanded. It INSISTS that one MUST accept it or be AGAINST his brothers and sisters. And it takes those that ACCEPT it and insists that they must SEPARATE themselves from others that DON'T accept it.

i have TRIED my best through scripture and reason to 'point out' the 'pitfalls' of this doctrine. I have made elaborate efforts to make it as PLAIN and simple as possible. Yet there are still those that are COMPLETELY adament in their adherance to a 'man-made' doctrine to the point that they would dismiss their brothers and sisters over it. This is NOT the 'teaching of God'. This is NOT what Christ taught through His EXAMPLE. This is EXACTLY what the members of the ORIGINAL Church were WARNED about. And the 'writting' is ON THE WALL for ANY who care to 'bow' to God instead of the churches of men.

MEC

 

[jgredline]

I was out of town for a couple of days on a job. Durring this time 'away', I did MUCH study of the subject to which we debate. Out of the 'blue' came a 'revelation' of sorts. This I would like to share:

IF this Jesus IS God concept IS 'required' for ONE to 'be' saved, then this would have DENIED 'Salvation' to ALL mentioned in the NT. For there was NO teaching that Jesus WAS God to ALL that we have EVIDENCE of 'being saved'. NEVER did the apostles PREACH Jesus IS God. Quite the OPOSITE in FACT. They 'taught' that Jesus IS The 'Son of God'. PERIOD. There is NOT one instance where the Holy Spirit was delivered to those 'born again' where these were PREACHED to that Jesus IS God. Yet we have evidence of MANY, both Jew and Gentile, that WERE 'saved' by SIMPLY accepting what the apostles DID teach. And THAT BEING that Jesus Christ IS The Son of God.

Well lets see...Off the top of my head we have
John 1
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 The same was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. 4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.


2 pet 1
1 Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ,
To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ:


John 20:28
28 And Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!â€Â


Heb 1:8 But to the Son He says: “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever; A scepter of righteousness is the scepter of Your kingdom.

So lets see here...We have John, Peter and Thomas ''ALL'' acknowledging that Jesus is God and in Hebrews, we have ''GOD'' himself calling Jesus God.....

 

[Imagican]

j,

SEE!!! You would quote the Bible. Do you NOT realize that the apostles did NOT have a Bible? Do you NOT realize that what is STATED in The Word was STATED BEFORE it was EVER written DOWN? That for a THOUSAND YEARS or so there WAS NO WRITTEN WORD for the PEOPLE?

NOW, what did CHRIST say was NEEDED for Salvation? A belief in 'TRINITY'? Find THAT ONE for me.

What I have POINTED OUT is that those PRESENT at the TIME OF CHRIST knew NO "TRINITY". This was NOT something that one NEEDED an 'understanding of' in order to RECEIVED Salvation.

But, from what YOU would offer, those at the time of Christ had NO CHANCE of Salvation for the CONCEPT of 'trinity' had NOT EVEN BEEN FORMULATED YET.

The APOSTLES, those that 'followed THEIR teachings', NO ONE could have been SAVED for the FIRST TWO HUNDRED YEARS '''AFTER"' Christ died UNTIL The 'formation' of the this doctrine. And then it took ANOTHER HUNDRED '''before'" it was EVEN ADOPTED INTO the CC.

j, I have offered PURE PROOF that 'trinity' IS a 'man-made' doctrine to ANY able to accept the 'truth'. I KNOW how HARD it IS to admit that WHAT one BELIEVES is WRONG. Nothing NEW here. Some have chosen DEATH over an acceptance of what IS TRUE. choosing to DIE rather than CHANGE.

But I have SHOWN you that 'trinity' was NOT taught by the APOSTLES. There IS NO 'trinity' in The Word. That there IS the ability for 'trinity' to be FORMULATED from the Word does NOT MAKE IT TRUTH.

Now, SHOW me ONE line of scripture where Jesus OR the apostles STATE that one MUST believe that Jesus Christ IS GOD in order to RECEIVE Salvation. JUST ONE LINE. Otherwise you are FOOLING yourself into a belief in something that CANNOT be substantiated by ANY PROOF other than your OWN BELIEFS.

We are COMMANDED to compare doctrine to SCRIPTURE and THROW OUT that which does NOT CONFORM. 'Trinity' does NOT conform to scripture if you CANNOT show it to BE 'in line' with scripture. The WORD TRINITY does NOT EVEN EXIST in scripture. So there is you FIRST 'clue' that it is NOT scriptural. That one can 'read INTO' scripture the IDEA of 'trinity' does NOT MAKE IT SO.

And DON'T forget, at the time of Christ and for HUNDREDS AND HUDREDS of years AFTER His death, there WAS NO BIBLE of the NT. These relied on the Spirit to guide them. And there is NOT ONE example of a Gospel or in the books of the apostles that state that AFTER being TAUGHT that Jesus WAS God that they were THEN saved. EVERY bit of scriptural evidence that we HAVE at our disposal states that after being taught that Jesus WAS the Son of GOD that these were saved.

Admit it. For HUNDREDS OF YEARS there was NO TRINITY, yet there were hundreds if not thousands upon thousands saved PREVIOUS to it's even being CONCEPTUALIZED. And these saved with an understanding that Christ was the Son of God NOT God Himself.

MEC

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

How does one explain the passage that says God does not sleep or slumber, yet Jesus is sleeping in Mark?

That is where the 'Trinity" kicks in. Scripture also says that God is a spirit, yet in Jesus, He was manifested in the flesh.

Each member of the Trinity has a different purpose, and a different form. Yet the three are one. Just as water, ice and steam each have a different purpose, and a different form, yet the three are one.

Welcome to the forum Ryan!