Is prayer just a placebo ? Faith crisis, please help !

[Eadha]

My faith is very important to me and it has always been. Now I'm experiencing very serious doubts and I need you to help me.

When I started to study psychology I noticed that several things in Christianity can be explained in the way other than christian. For example prayer... if you really want something very much, focus completely on it and believe that God will help you with that, it does get better. It always did in my life.
I have experienced a strong social phobia and thanks to my faith I recovered from it.
However... that's the same with the Law of Attraction. If you believe that something good will happen to you, it really will. Same with faith - if you believe that God will help you with something, it will get better.
A really strong faith can be also a cause to miracles and sudden recoveries.
More and more often I think that maybe it's not God, who helps us... Maybe we help ourselves on our own ? Isn't it just the matter of positive attitude and just.. faith itself, without any higher power helping?
All of my prayers have helped, but I usually pray for things related to me, like school, my psychological problems, or my relationships. Have you ever experienced a prayer's impact on things not related to you ?
I need some strong testimonies, so please, tell me about your experiences.

 

[Eugene]

Dear Sister @Eadha, first of all please allow me to welcome you to our Christian fellowship here at CF.net. I hope you’ll be blessed among us.

I have been made aware of the attack of Christianity in the schools today proclaiming humanism, power of the mind, psychology, new age, and any amount of things except godly faith. Even peer pressure enters the equation.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. It is not might versus right, the very salvation of our bodies too comes from God, and there is no power of man that can give peace to the sin sick soul. What is, and what should be our utmost concern?

Mat 16:26 For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?

You asked for a testimony. Invited to a friend’s home, their one year old child somehow got to the staircase of an unfinished basement, fell approximately nine or ten feet to a cement floor onto its head while in a stroller. When brought up its neck was actually ninety degrees sideways while being unconscious or dead. I laid hands on him, cried out to God for help, the baby immediately came to, straightened his neck and began crying.

At work a friend of mine drove a forklift down a steep ramp into the basement of the building, its brakes failed, and he crashed into a wall, was thrown between the forklift and the wall and crushed between. I got him out, he couldn’t breathe, and I just called oupon my LORD to please not allow him to die like this. Immediately he began breathing and though he seemed to be fine I waited until the doctor arrived to confirm it. He testified to his wife who then welcomed me to their home anytime.

The last I’m aware of is another friend cutting steel deck plate from a conveyor fifteen feet in the air. Traffic was piling up, he stopped, came down in a highlift, and then the sixty some pound piece of metal broke loose, hit him in the head crushing the safety helmet he was wearing, I prayed for him, escorted him to the hospital and he was fine.

Myself? I’ve broadsided a car while riding a motorcycle, was thrown higher than a telephone according to a witness, landed on my side which straightened a bad back I had, actually tore my pants from me to an extent, and I missed no work. I will say I was a bit sore for awhile. In real emergencies, I’ve never had time to contemplate mind over matter as it were, and God was always there for me.

I’m not sure all this is what you’re looking for, but God is the solution to any problem you will ever face, and He is true to His word that He will never fail or forsake you.

Blessings in Christ Jesus.

 

[Christ_empowered]

Psychotherapy has a very high failure rate. Much like the psychiatrists, they've also abandoned most of the truly mentally ill in favor of more affluent, walking wounded people. Anyway, its not that great, and a lot of psychology has quasi-religious elements. Ever read Dr.Thomas Szasz? http://www.szasz.com/

He wrote The Myth of Mental Illness. I don't agree with all of it...actually, I don't know what exactly to believe, lol...but he makes a lot of valid points that are worth consdering, and not just about mental illness.

Also...Christ isn't about behavior modification or symptom suppression. Jesus is about transformation, starting with forgiveness. That's completely different than what "mental health professionals" offer...and its FREE!

Please read over the website. Szasz was one of the greatest--and most controversial--thinkers of the 20th century. He was also...a psychiatrist.

 

[Brother Mike]

A really strong faith can be also a cause to miracles and sudden recoveries.

A strong faith in what? Faith in itself is dead. Where does the power come from that produces Miracles? right, don't know.

And Moses stretched out his hand over the sea; and the LORD caused the sea to go back by a strong east wind all that night, and made the sea dry land, and the waters were divided. And the children of Israel went into the midst of the sea upon the dry ground: and the waters were a wall unto them on their right hand, and on their left.
(Exo 14:21-22)

When I started to study psychology I noticed that several things in Christianity can be explained in the way other than christian. For example prayer

So man without thought activates spiritual laws God has set fourth. My own brother always confessed I have a immune system like a tank.
My Brother was never sick. He always said He can't catch anything. My Brother was not even saved, but years of never being sick, he mentioned it to me.

Jesus said....

For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
(Mar 11:23)

So now since man has stumbled upon some concepts that operate the realm of the spirit, and sales people with their positive self motivation have really learned a few things about the effects of this. It's not God's Principles anymore, it's psychology now.

I need some strong testimonies, so please, tell me about your experiences.

Let's get this straight. You need more than some personal experiences, and testimonies. I can fill pages, but that does not make you value the Word more, or see what you can't see.

 

[Rollo Tamasi]

The ways of mankind are always in conflict with God.
But always, the Word of God has the answers to life now and forever.

Proverbs 14:12;
"There is a way that seems right to a man, but in the end it leads to death".

Studying psychology may help you in some ways, but studying the Word of God will help you in all ways.

 

[JoJoe]

First off, Welcome!

Now I can honestly say I have been there before. It is true strong willed people have great success in life. The problem is what we think we want is not what we need. This is why we can't lean on our own understanding.

My whole life... I just wanted to be a dad. Still to this day I really do. I had the will and the way. I had a good job, a steady girlfriend, and everything seemed to be going great. At the time my faith wasn't as strong as it once was. I thought this is it, my future wife and I can finally make a family. God knew otherwise however, and put it in my heart to wait. I waited a year and still couldn't shake this idea of something was wrong.

My gf started to get impatient, told me I didn't love her, and she was getting more distant. In my heart I started to forsake God's plan and set up a date for marriage. The same day I got called in to work and more then half the company was laid off. She told me shortly after that she couldn't be with me with no good income and that she had been cheating on me for a long time.

This tore me apart and I fell in a great depression but, at the same time it saved me from a broken marriage. My sisters and mother needed me when I was being selfish in my own life. If I didn't lose what I thought I wanted I would of lost much more dear to me.

My faith has never been stronger. If you go with your mind you cannot see beyond for the better; with God you won't have to.

Go with God and be blessed.

 

[Kenny_ms]

More and more often I think that maybe it's not God, who helps us... Maybe we help ourselves on our own ?

That same thought has crossed my mind...a kind of "natural order of things" ...like karma but only in a way. But, beyond the good results of positive thinking and doing instead of waiting (doing within our power) when you can which is something we should probably do anyway, I think God get's involved because the bible says he does/will.

Psalms 37:4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; And he shall give thee the desires of thine heart..

Now some interpret that as he will give you what you need to do his work but that's not what I see. "The desires of your heart" are pretty straight forward and often something we can't or won't get on our own.

But I have to be honest here, you couldn't prove it by me yet. I've asked a few things, things that were beyond my control to fix and have been asking for quit a while but nothing. I won't go into detail, but they are not unreasonable things the ask.

I can only assume he knows what he's doing and I'll hang in there as kind of an experiment...he does after all say we can do that:

Malachi 3:10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, That there may be meat in mine house, And prove me now herewith, saith the Lord of hosts, If I will not open you the windows of heaven, And [a]pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If it's scriptural, at least at this point, I am going to assume it's truth/fact and not a placebo.

 

[WIP]

Psalms 37:4 Delight thyself also in the Lord; And he shall give thee the desires of thine heart..

I think that if I delight myself in the Lord, the desires of my heart will also be in line with God's will and therefore if my desires are aligned with His will then He will grant it. However, if I do not delight myself in the Lord, the desires of my heart may not align with His will. For example, if I pray for wealth or power or fame and that is not what God wills for me, then I highly doubt that He will grant my request.

 

[Kenny_ms]

WIP, Personally, I don't ask for riches, fame whatever, not even close, just things I need badly. I sometimes think that on the outside chance I was granted riches, I'd use it for his will and have a ball helping people but I still don't ask for it, maybe I should. But that would be in line with what you are saying so.....

However, and like I mentioned, the verse says what it says and there is nothing in there that explicitly says he won't grant riches in one form or another or...well, "desires", even so far as for selfish reasons like security, a boat or a Mercedes.

Whatever his will? That's always a given for me.

I should break in here and say I'm not Prosperity Message oriented at all but am just saying, I don't like to get caught up it the lines others may draw for the meaning of this or any verse as those lines may not be there at all, at least it has not been proven to me. I'm not saying where you got your opinion from, WIP, maybe you formed it yourself completely but often these opinions are formed because of what we read/hear and they sound good and may even be good but also may be somewhat limiting what a verse, as in this case, means.

"The desires of your heart" and the way it's worded, could very easily mean, things we just want for ourselves, very easily. Put it this way, the things we desire, or the things we want.....period. Isn't that what "desires" means in it's simplest form? "wants"? How many people in the Bible were given much more than they needed simply because they loved God and it was his will that they have it? And who's to say Job for instance didn't ask for some of the things he desired, like another wife or two or security so he could relax knowing he could take care of them/himself? and they were granted....no problem. Or these people were prospered enough in general because they loved the Lord that they could afford the desires of their heart. It just doesn't seem all that far fetched to me.

Some things, whether I should or not, I just don't feel right asking for but as to what I should expect if I "delight myself in the Lord", it appears I could easily expect desires, why? because that's what the verse says. Now it's true, that's what it says before we give it some thought but who's to say it has to be just/only what we think it into being and not what it says in it's simplest form?

Honestly, a lot of what I just wrote does sound to me like some of the Prosperity messages I hate so much and I know it's bound to come off that way to some of you, so in the end maybe we should just delight ourselves in the Lord, and see what happens. He knows our hearts and whether we value riches more than him and if we truly do love him more than anything, who knows, the sky may actually be the limit. Can you see yourself giving someone you love something that they don't have to have just because it makes you feel good to give it? like a gold necklace? really nice new car? I can...easily. So, maybe don't be afraid to ask for something you simply "desire" or just drop a hint or two ..experiment...see what happens.

 

[be-thankful-Col-3:15]

My faith is very important to me and it has always been. Now I'm experiencing very serious doubts and I need you to help me.

When I started to study psychology I noticed that several things in Christianity can be explained in the way other than christian. For example prayer... if you really want something very much, focus completely on it and believe that God will help you with that, it does get better. It always did in my life.

Psychology focuses on what you can do. The Bible talks about what God alone can do. So, read what the Bible says God does, and pray for Him to do what only He can do!

I have experienced a strong social phobia and thanks to my faith I recovered from it.

But if you now have doubt that God did this with you, it could be that what you accomplished was indeed a self effort, and you need to learn how to overcome phobia the way God will have us doing this.

"Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you." (James 4:7)

"There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love." (1 John 4:18)

Possibly, you now are having torment . . . doubt . . . because you have not succeeded that way God's love has us succeed. Jesus says, "if you love those who love you, what reward have you?" (in Matthew 5:46) We can have what I call "love idols" . . . ones we favor over others because of what they give us and how we want to use them for what they want. But Jesus love has us loving any and all people, and being about all we can give to them and praying for all our Father is able to do for any person. So, if your faith praying has mostly been about you and ones you favor over others, possibly your faith needs to be with all-loving love's prayer, and not so limited > Paul says we need "faith working through love", in Galatians 5:6.

And this love, like I mean from the verse above, will drive out all sorts of fears and their various personality torments which psychiatry can not cure. Because physical and talk and social methods can not reach to change our character which is spiritual >

"and be renewed in the spirit of your mind," (Ephesians 4:23)

The Holy Spirit in His almighty power of God's love can effect our spiritual mind, deeper than what physical medicine can effect.

However... that's the same with the Law of Attraction. If you believe that something good will happen to you, it really will. Same with faith - if you believe that God will help you with something, it will get better.
A really strong faith can be also a cause to miracles and sudden recoveries.

God wants us to have all-loving faith. Jesus on the cross was concerned about any and all people. He was sacrificed to loving any and all people. Also, by the way, Jesus offered Himself, on the cross, "as a sweet-smelling aroma" > Ephesians 5:2. So, He was interested in loving our Father by being sweetly pleasing to our Father while making His sacrifice. So, in Christian faith, we first are about pleasing our Father, being sweetly pleasing to Him. It is personal, like this

More and more often I think that maybe it's not God, who helps us... Maybe we help ourselves on our own ? Isn't it just the matter of positive attitude and just.. faith itself, without any higher power helping?

I think there can be things that happen because we push for them. But these tend to be things we want for ourselves.

All of my prayers have helped, but I usually pray for things related to me, like school, my psychological problems, or my relationships. Have you ever experienced a prayer's impact on things not related to you ?
I need some strong testimonies, so please, tell me about your experiences.

Even some number of people who use "faith" for others can be helping people only so they can keep on living their selfish lives about their own selves, and Jesus says >

"'He who loves his life will lose it, and he who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.'" (John 12:25)

So, then, possibly this can indeed mean that wishing for what is only for you is not going to mean things will come out well. But in due time you will lose your life, in various ways. One way is how we can be messed-with by "the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience" (in Ephesians 2:2). Satan's spirit can move people > he "works" in people > those emotions for pleasure and security, for example, can work very hard to drive us for pleasure we treasure. But Jesus gives us "rest for your souls," He says in Matthew 11:29. So, if we are self-seeking and getting success, this could be because of Satan working us to have counterfeit success of selfish prayer and effort. So, it is possible that results of prayer are indeed not of God.

But the Bible is very clear what we need to seek and pray for. Also, there is all "we do not know what we should pray for as we ought" (Romans 8:26), "but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered." So, when you pray in submission to God, we have the Holy Spirit praying with us.

 

[brother Paul]

There are many different reasons for prayer. One of the best is communion with God. There is definitely a psychological component (psyche - soul) but as you read Eugene in post 2, there is a deeply almost miraculous component not everyone experiences, but that is because He has His purpose for each of us and it is not the same for any two...my wife and I have prayed for many that are sick (laying on hands) and they have recovered....so many call us and ask us for prayer but of course we let them know it is all God and that this is where they should go first. Some have....my own sister before she went home to be with the Lord became a women of great faith (amazed even her Pastor) because she came to a place where she did not doubt. She flatlined twice...the doctors brought her back....the second time she was in the presence of the Lord and with loved ones and was sad to have to come back one more time....but she got a chance to be with many she loved and tell them and then refused any further treatment.

So whether or not you see seeming miraculous results right away fear not....some seeds take years to sprout...the old Pastor of the Open Door in Los Angeles prayed and prayed for people to come accept Christ at his dedicated preaching and died thinking he did something wrong but two of his parishioners, because of his teaching became great soul winners...one was a missionary who planted over 50 churches in Africa and the other was J Vernon Magee.....he had not failed God....and I know God has not failed him....

Keep praying

In His love

Paul

 

[WIP]

WIP, Personally, I don't ask for riches, fame whatever, not even close, just things I need badly. I sometimes think that on the outside chance I was granted riches, I'd use it for his will and have a ball helping people but I still don't ask for it, maybe I should. But that would be in line with what you are saying so.....

Those were just examples. There could be untold examples to use. I think the difficulty comes because we don't believe in our hearts. We say we believe, we might even believe we believe, but in reality we have doubts. I think about Jesus' disciples and how they lived with Jesus for three years watching him cure disease, restore deformities, restore sight, restore sound, give voice to the mute, feed thousands with a few loaves of bread and fish, bring the dead back to life, command wind and storms to calm, walk on water, and yet how many times did he use the phrase "you of little faith" when he talked to his disciples?

Matthew 21 (NKJV)
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”

Mark 11 (NKJV)
22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.
24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

 

[Kenny_ms]

Those were just examples. There could be untold examples to use. I think the difficulty comes because we don't believe in our hearts. We say we believe, we might even believe we believe, but in reality we have doubts. I think about Jesus' disciples and how they lived with Jesus for three years watching him cure disease, restore deformities, restore sight, restore sound, give voice to the mute, feed thousands with a few loaves of bread and fish, bring the dead back to life, command wind and storms to calm, walk on water, and yet how many times did he use the phrase "you of little faith" when he talked to his disciples?

Matthew 21 (NKJV)
21 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what was done to the fig tree, but also if you say to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ it will be done.
22 And whatever things you ask in prayer, believing, you will receive.”

Mark 11 (NKJV)
22 So Jesus answered and said to them, “Have faith in God.
23 For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, ‘Be removed and be cast into the sea,’ and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says.
24 Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.

I understood them to be examples.

Yes, it may be that we don't have "enough" faith as we should or as Jesus would want us to but that doesn't mean we lack so much to say "we don't believe in our hearts" period. Sure Jesus said the disciples should have learned more and were still "ye of little faith" but what is the requirement there to say we believe? Or maybe he was just talking about the disciples because they had been with him so long (more is expected from those given more) and not common folks that were not around Jesus a lot at that time?

Was it only one or were there more of those common folk that were told "your faith has healed you"? Seems to me the only faith they needed, that we know of anyway, was they believed enough to simply ask for healing or touch Jesus' garment, that was all that was required to believe or to say they "believed in their hearts". And yes, we can do much better than we do in all things but the basic requirements for "believing" and I could be wrong, they don't seem that tough/complicated.

Just to sincerely call on the name of the Lord and do as he wishes evidently interjects enough faith to save us from damnation, so it may not be faith enough to move a mountain but it's pretty powerful stuff.

Of course it's a process and something we will hopefully all get better at as time goes on.

 

[WIP]

I also think we have a tendency to put God in a box. We try to conform Him to our liking or ideas and expect God to do our bidding and not His will be done. We want to be the potter and have Him be the clay so-to-speak. As a result, our expectations about what God has planned for us aren't the same as God's. He is the potter and we are the clay. He is in control and so whatever God has planned for us is not ours to control but we are to accept it. This is where I believe trust and faith come in to play. Do we really trust Him enough to let Him be in control of our lives completely, 100%? Satan likes to throw in those tiny little tidbits of doubt and selfish ambitions to cloud the water.

I thank God for Jesus because God sees His perfection and applies it to those who believe. For now there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus; who don't walk according to the flesh but walk according to the Spirit! (paraphrasing Romans 8:1)

 

[Kenny_ms]

On the verse in question, I still think it means what it says it means.

And as far as I know, God giving us our desires because he so chooses, if we delight in him, does not make us of the flesh/Devil or sinful in any way. I just don't think the Bible or God, would say he'd do that if it made us any of those things.

Maybe I'm too simple minded on this but, I just see no reason to over think the verse....that's all...

And of course we should always want his will to be done but apparently that's one of the things he wills, if we meet the criteria, that is unless we want to change the very simple meaning of the verse.....call me bull headed but I'm not going to do that.

Guess we should agree to disagree or state the case on another thread for others to comment on as this is somewhat related but sorta pulling this thread off topic.

 

[WIP]

My faith is very important to me and it has always been. Now I'm experiencing very serious doubts and I need you to help me.

When I started to study psychology I noticed that several things in Christianity can be explained in the way other than christian. For example prayer... if you really want something very much, focus completely on it and believe that God will help you with that, it does get better. It always did in my life.
I have experienced a strong social phobia and thanks to my faith I recovered from it.
However... that's the same with the Law of Attraction. If you believe that something good will happen to you, it really will. Same with faith - if you believe that God will help you with something, it will get better.
A really strong faith can be also a cause to miracles and sudden recoveries.
More and more often I think that maybe it's not God, who helps us... Maybe we help ourselves on our own ? Isn't it just the matter of positive attitude and just.. faith itself, without any higher power helping?
All of my prayers have helped, but I usually pray for things related to me, like school, my psychological problems, or my relationships. Have you ever experienced a prayer's impact on things not related to you ?
I need some strong testimonies, so please, tell me about your experiences.

Correct me if I'm wrong but by your post above I get the impression that you're thinking we can will ourselves to good things purely by the power of our own brain or consciousness.

I participate in a men's gospel chorus. Our group gets together once a month or sometimes less to sing and fellowship. We come from many backgrounds and belong to a few various churches. About 5 years ago our director, who was I think about 52 years old at the time, was driving to work on a state highway when suddenly the right side of his body became rigid forcing the throttle to the floor. He told us how he was unable to control the vehicle but was conscious and able to see what was happening as he swerved back and forth into on-coming traffic and eventually into the snow filled ditch missing a power pole by less than 8 inches. Another motorist saw the accident and when she went to his car the engine was still racing and the wheels turning at high speed because he still had the throttle to the metal.

After some tests were completed it was determined that he suffered a grand mal seizure resulting from a baseball sized cancerous tumor they found in his brain. The prognosis was that the tumor had many "tentacles" that extended throughout his brain and it was inoperable and he would maybe have just a few weeks to live. We have many years of scientific research behind us and a prognosis like this comes with a lot of supporting evidence.

When he finished telling us his story we gathered around him as a group, placed our hands upon him, and prayed for him. When we attended our individual church services we requested prayer for him as well. At some point, I don't recall how many days or weeks had passed, his wife told us about something that happened. She said he was in their bathroom when suddenly she heard him shouting for joy saying, "I'm going to live! I'm going to live!"

From that day to the present he uses his testimony to share the gospel of Jesus to those around him and he still directs our choir. In the months and years since, his brain tumor began to shrink and is currently in remission. Aside from the side effects of the treatments, to my knowledge he has not been suffering from additional seizures.

Doctors are at a loss to explain it.

 

[Deborah13]

On the verse in question, I still think it means what it says it means.

And as far as I know, God giving us our desires because he so chooses, if we delight in him, does not make us of the flesh/Devil or sinful in any way. I just don't think the Bible or God, would say he'd do that if it made us any of those things.

Maybe I'm too simple minded on this but, I just see no reason to over think the verse....that's all...

And of course we should always want his will to be done but apparently that's one of the things he wills, if we meet the criteria, that is unless we want to change the very simple meaning of the verse.....call me bull headed but I'm not going to do that.

Guess we should agree to disagree or state the case on another thread for others to comment on as this is somewhat related but sorta pulling this thread off topic.

I put your scripture with this one. I believe John must have been praying God's will over his friend Gaius.
3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Of course it's a process and something we will hopefully all get better at as time goes on.

Yup, even as our soul prospers.

 

[Kenny_ms]

I put your scripture with this one. I believe John must have been praying God's will over his friend Gaius.
3Jn 1:2 Beloved, I wish above all things that thou mayest prosper and be in health, even as thy soul prospereth.

Yup, even as our soul prospers.

It's the Bibles scripture, not mine, and it is in context just as it is.

"Even as our soul prospers"?

Sounds good to me, Deb, however, the Bible didn't put the two verses together, we did and though it may be fine to dwell on both and both are necessary, the verse stands for itself and means what it does by itself. If y'all are trying to get the message across to me our soul is important/more important, not sure what I said to give anyone the idea I wasn't as aware of that as anyone here? Is it because I dared mention having our hearts desire given to us by God is what the verse that says just that means and that I think it's ok?

A quick comment on Soul. You've heard the term "soul food"? Having good things to eat, I mean things that taste good and are up and above what we need just to stay alive, as well as having "things" that my be up and above what it takes to just sustain us are ...*.gasp! good for our soul too. And I don't mean to the point of gluttony or too much of anything. Someone says, I don't need that, the Lord and just enough other things to survive are all I need? That's fine, to each their own but, I feel a well rounded soul is not fed by bread alone but EVERY word of God, including the words/gift of desires in Psalms 37:4

I'm getting curiouser and curiouser why we insist on changing or even rejecting the simple essence of that verse? Just a possibility but, have the prosperity preachers angered us so much we just don't want to admit any, just good ol' prosperity that's given to men of God all the time in the Bible by God, is OK? If so, I understand that, but still....

Of course prosperity/things are not the most important thing in the world, but it is important to have a comfortable life (not necessarily rich) and I'd have to question anyone's honesty who say that's not important to us. Having our needs met can, after all, allow us to put our thought resources towards Gods work instead of worrying about those needs. And a step further, money resources will allow us to increase our work for him in many ways, including helping the needy but I'm sure God has to be careful who he gives what but, he knows our individual hearts so....Also If God chooses, and the way I see it, he evidently does, to give us something we desire, I won't be one to try to take that joy away from him, or myself for that matter..

The more y'all post, the more I think about it and the more I think about it, the more confident I am on the matter so, thanks for making me give this the thought that I have and maybe needed to.
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[Deborah13]

That's fine, to each their own but, I feel a well rounded soul is not fed by bread alone but EVERY word of God, including the words/gift of desires in Psalms 37:4

You have made my point, "that a well rounded soul". Just as I agreed with you in your other post. As we mature (soul prospering) in the things of God, our faith also grows. From that tiny mustard seed into a tree.

Just a possibility but, have the prosperity preachers angered us so much we just don't want to admit any, just good ol' prosperity that's given to men of God all the time in the Bible by God, is OK? If so, I understand that, but still....

John didn't think there was a problem with Godly men prospering, why should we?

.Also If God chooses, and the way I see it, he evidently does, to give us something we desire, I won't be one to try to take that joy away from him, or myself for that matter..

I agree.

Here's just a simple testamony about God giving one the desires of their heart, me.
Back in 1977, still a baby Christian, I traveled from CT to SD to visit my folks. From there to MT, to visit friends, then on the back to CT, I came through the CO mountains, and fell in love with them. I desired to move to CO, I asked God about it and also asked Him for the funds to do that. Almost a year went by, then someone offered to pay me $1000.00 to paint their house. That was an answer to prayer. Prayed for a job in CO. Got to CO within two days, good job. Living in a tiny two bedroom house with 2 adults and 6 kids. The pastor said pray and tell God in detail what you desire for a home. I did, within a week I got everything I had asked for. The most amazing thing was, that the couple that lived next door on this ranch had the perfect house, I didn't know that then. I just met them when she came to me and said that she and her husband had talked it over and they had decided that they should trade houses with us because there was just the two of them. So we did. Shortly after that the Lord opened the door for me to witness to her and her husband. They accepted the Gospel message. She died in the Lord and he is still walking in the Lord as a witness to their two children and his family. He witnessed to his sister and she got saved. I don't know how many more there may be.
God does give us the desires of our heart but I believe that what I asked for was within His will and purpose.

 

[JoJoe]

On the verse in question, I still think it means what it says it means.

And as far as I know, God giving us our desires because he so chooses, if we delight in him, does not make us of the flesh/Devil or sinful in any way. I just don't think the Bible or God, would say he'd do that if it made us any of those things.

Maybe I'm too simple minded on this but, I just see no reason to over think the verse....that's all...

And of course we should always want his will to be done but apparently that's one of the things he wills, if we meet the criteria, that is unless we want to change the very simple meaning of the verse.....call me bull headed but I'm not going to do that.

Guess we should agree to disagree or state the case on another thread for others to comment on as this is somewhat related but sorta pulling this thread off topic.

Correct me if I'm wrong but by your post above I get the impression that you're thinking we can will ourselves to good things purely by the power of our own brain or consciousness.

I participate in a men's gospel chorus. Our group gets together once a month or sometimes less to sing and fellowship. We come from many backgrounds and belong to a few various churches. About 5 years ago our director, who was I think about 52 years old at the time, was driving to work on a state highway when suddenly the right side of his body became rigid forcing the throttle to the floor. He told us how he was unable to control the vehicle but was conscious and able to see what was happening as he swerved back and forth into on-coming traffic and eventually into the snow filled ditch missing a power pole by less than 8 inches. Another motorist saw the accident and when she went to his car the engine was still racing and the wheels turning at high speed because he still had the throttle to the metal.

After some tests were completed it was determined that he suffered a grand mal seizure resulting from a baseball sized cancerous tumor they found in his brain. The prognosis was that the tumor had many "tentacles" that extended throughout his brain and it was inoperable and he would maybe have just a few weeks to live. We have many years of scientific research behind us and a prognosis like this comes with a lot of supporting evidence.

When he finished telling us his story we gathered around him as a group, placed our hands upon him, and prayed for him. When we attended our individual church services we requested prayer for him as well. At some point, I don't recall how many days or weeks had passed, his wife told us about something that happened. She said he was in their bathroom when suddenly she heard him shouting for joy saying, "I'm going to live! I'm going to live!"

From that day to the present he uses his testimony to share the gospel of Jesus to those around him and he still directs our choir. In the months and years since, his brain tumor began to shrink and is currently in remission. Aside from the side effects of the treatments, to my knowledge he has not been suffering from additional seizures.

Doctors are at a loss to explain it.

"Command those who are rich in this present world not to be arrogant nor to put their hope in wealth, which is so uncertain, but to put their hope in God, who richly provides us with everything for our enjoyment" (1 Timothy 6:17 NIV).

Personally guys I would say, I agree with both of you. Maybe it means both and after all its all about perspective and what the Holy Spirit helps us understand.