Bible Study Is Satan such a bad guy?

[Solo]

So God knows more than man, but he doesn't know all of what will transpire in his creation?

That seems to be the only conclusion I can draw by what the bible says. Of course even this conclusion is subject to assumptions. Every religion must assume that the holy text is the word of God and that he is telling the truth. You have to draw the line of faith somewhere, but I will not put faith in something that doesn't make sense like blaming my temptation on the devil.

Your conclusions suggest that you know what the Bible says, but you give no support to your answers which sound more like opinions.

Does God transcend time? In other words, God created time, therefore, does he transcend time. If so what does it mean to transcend time, if not why not?

That is a different question that we may never know (maybe a theory of everything will give us an explaination in 50 years and maybe not). The point is that it is silly to have faith in something where 2+2 does not equal 4. Why blame your temptation on the devil when it is really just the evil might just be within yourself?

While you wait 50 years for an answer, know that the answer has already been given, and many of us know that God transcends time, space, and man's knowledge.

Are you a college student? Are you saved?

 

[HeWillReturn]

Your conclusions suggest that you know what the Bible says, but you give no support to your answers which sound more like opinions.

The support for the conclusion is given on the website http://www.knowtherealgod.com. I was disappointed that there was not more biblical references on the website but the conclusions made are general and I see no problems with the argument. I've actually only read a couple of them but they both seem pretty good.

If you disagree with the references on the website PLEASE TELL ME. Maybe then I would reach a different logical conclusion. I don't exactly like the conclusion I am drawing either.

While you wait 50 years for an answer, know that the answer has already been given, and many of us know that God transcends time, space, and man's knowledge.

Many Christian Physics Professors believe that God cannot defy the laws of the universe if he is operating within them. I do not see a problem with this idea.

Are you a college student? Are you saved?

I am an engineer who accepted the Lord Jesus Christ into my Heart for myself at the ripe old age of 13. Do many of you think that because I use some common sense in what I believe is a sin? I believe God is good and that He wants it that way. I think God would want a suicide bomber to question their community's religious beliefs no less than then He would want us to question what our church and communities tell us of Jesus Christ.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

.... Or do you think God maliciously made an entire planet that he knew he would have to drown and send to hell every living man, woman, and baby as they were all evil? That is the point; what other deduction can you make? Is your problem with the argument I bring or do you only care about the conclusion I draw? ....
I am suggesting maybe we Christians today still think the world is flat because no one told us otherwise. (Yes, this is an analogy).

Invisible option number three: God has a plan and has not told us all of the details.

Chances are, if God told us everything that He was going to do, we might inadvertently allow the enemy to know what was coming. God promises that He is going to sneak up on him.

 

[HeWillReturn]

Invisible?

Again, I know no one likes the conclusion but I appreciate you helping to explain the flaws in the argument.

Invisible option number three: God has a plan and has not told us all of the details.

Granted. My question is what are the things that we believe because we think He told us but he really didn't. God gives a prediction for the Devils role in the end of times. Maybe that is just a prediction and the Devil won't really want to do that.

Chances are, if God told us everything that He was going to do, we might inadvertently allow the enemy to know what was coming. God promises that He is going to sneak up on him.

Interesting point, however I guess if you are an all-knowing and all-powerful god the enemy can know whatever he wants and he still won't need to sneak up on any enemy to smite them. To me that argument actually supports God having limited knowledge and/or limited power.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

Okay,

I am seeing a bit of a contradiction here. You absolutely trust God, but you are not sure if He is telling the truth.

I guess I am going to bow out of this conversation, before it is too late to do so gracefully. I hope you find the truth in your quest.


Solo, TAG! You're it!

 

[HeWillReturn]

Okay,

I am seeing a bit of a contradiction here. You absolutely trust God, but you are not sure if He is telling the truth.

I told you what I believe and I never said that I thought that God was [not] added 12/03/2006 telling the truth. My point was that if God lying was the only alternative then there is no alternative. Thank you for your help Gabby, I appreciate it.[/i]

 

[TanNinety]

HeWillReturn, I do enjoy your questions and these are some things that I have previously pondered about.

As I do believe God is good and just, the creation and then the following damnation of an entire world (save Noah's family) I believe a lack of forsight than a lack of moral. I challenge you to give me an alternative explaination.

I think a background of what I believe in would let you understand my answers better. I am sympathetic towards what everyone calls an “open theistic†view. I don’t know all the aspects of open theism to endorse it but I know my views share some similarities. I don’t believe that God exhaustively knows the future. I don’t believe that God ordains each and every single event in the universe. Both of the above can be biblically supported and you can see that in the links I have provided in my previous post. I believe God works in big pictures. He exhaustively knows the past and present. And future, He knows according to plans. I do not believe that past and future enjoy an existence in reality. Past is in memories and future has not happened yet, so there is nothing to “exhaustively know†about it. Future is open in possibilities and plans. This aspect of God lead to during the days of Noah for the world to become such that
Genesis 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man [was] great in the earth, and [that] every imagination of the thoughts of his heart [was] only evil continually.
It could be quite surprising for some that men could be so evil. If one can trust God then we know that they actually filled the earth with violence to the point that God grieved that He ever made man. I don’t think it was lack of foresight or lack of moral, but the beauty of Him creating a “free worldâ€Â. A world that could turn quite violent if it wanted to. The reason why God lets things get this worse is not because of lack of foresight but the bible says because He is longsuffering. He gives us enough time to correct things repent and return to His ways. If that doesn’t happen He overrides mans will of continuing in wickedness.

Let's assume that His prediction is flawless, I am questioning that the Devil knowing this computation as it is written might not want to do that. If he doesn't want to do something evil, I hardly see God making him perform sin. You should trust in God, but blind trust is not what he wants. Muslim suicide bombers give blind trust that what they read is true. Who knows, maybe after hearing the prophecy it made the Devil jaded with the whole mettling with humans that he's been doing for generations.

If the devil thinks that the future is rigidly orchestrated and settled so like it is in Revelation, I think he would try to give up. And if the devil cannot give up because of God planning it so, then that makes God indirectly responsible for the evil, instead of the devil. The devil believes that he legitimately has a shot at defeating Yeshua and God and God’s plans, which is true. He does have a legitimate chance at thwarting everything that God has planned. But given the track record, I would go with choosing God’s plan.

 

[Gabbylittleangel]

...If the devil thinks that the future is rigidly orchestrated and settled ...

I'm back! Now I see where you guys are coming from.

Your belief is that the future is orchestrated, so we must now conform to this plan, as if God wrote a script and that we, the characters, are acting it out.

This is why so many people believe that prophesies are 'self fulfilling'.

When prophetic Scripture was written, the prophets saw the future, watched who was doing what, and the events taking place, and then they wrote down what they saw. See the difference? See why prophesy must be fulfilled?

 

[HeWillReturn]

Well done TanNinety. That idea I can respect. Few Christians have an open enough mind to even consider that interpretation as a possiblity (I've never met one) so I cannot discuss it with anyone. If I do they'll tell me that even discussing it is blasphemy. If more people were open-minded like you, I think this would be a much better world.

You make an interesting point, If there can be no battle against God then why would the Devil try. He at least thinks that there is a battle to be won whether there is one or not. Again thank you for that post, it made my day to see I'm not completely crazy, even though I don't think that Little Angel is convinced yet :wink:

I think a background of what I believe in would let you understand my answers better. I am sympathetic towards what everyone calls an “open theistic†view. I don’t know all the aspects of open theism to endorse it but I know my views share some similarities. I don’t believe that God exhaustively knows the future. I don’t believe that God ordains each and every single event in the universe. Both of the above can be biblically supported and you can see that in the links I have provided in my previous post. I believe God works in big pictures. He exhaustively knows the past and present. And future, He knows according to plans. I do not believe that past and future enjoy an existence in reality. Past is in memories and future has not happened yet, so there is nothing to “exhaustively know†about it. Future is open in possibilities and plans.

 

[HeWillReturn]

Your belief is that the future is orchestrated, so we must now conform to this plan, as if God wrote a script and that we, the characters, are acting it out.

No, what I'm saying is maybe that was exactly what was going to happen but then by telling the actors that they have free reign to change the script before the play. To follow or not follow their roles aka free will.

If this is not true and the Devils' role is

rigidly orchestrated and settled so like it is in Revelation

Then the question remains. Who would be guilty of Revelation. Is it the Puppet or the Puppeteer; is it sin or purification.

This is why so many people believe that prophesies are 'self fulfilling'.

I thought people of other religions just argued about whether they really happened. I didn't realize that was even an argument.

When prophetic Scripture was written, the prophets saw the future, watched who was doing what, and the events taking place, and then they wrote down what they saw. See the difference? See why prophesy must be fulfilled?

But if you could look into the future and see yourself at 8:30AM 2020 step in front of a bus in California and die would you still do it? No, just the fact that you know this you might move to Alabama and have a completely different life. The Devil reads revelation and I don't know if you noticed :-D but the Devil loses in the end. Maybe he decides that he isn't going to step in front of that bus this time.

 

[Atonement]

What I know in my Bible studies is that there are two types of sins.

1) omission

2) remission


1. Omission: This type of sin is a sin that you are neglected on. (ie. hitting your thumb with a hammer and you curse because of the pain).

2. Remission: This is is doing something that you know is wrong but you do it anyway (against your conscience).

Now what sin does the Devil, Satan etc make you do? I believe it's the sin of Remission. The sin that you do and you know it's wrong but you do it anyway because of temptation.

Satan is not liable for every sin you make. You yourself are a sinful creature because of the fall. It might have started with Satan, but the finished work is that you yourself are a sinner. By cursing because you hit your thumb with a hammer, was a reaction, it was not a meditated thought. It was not intentional on your part, but it slipped out. Because you are a sinner by nature. We can not blame Satan for every sin we make, unless you blame Satan for tempting Adam and Eve at the beginning. I highly doubt every time we sin. We raise our fist to Satan and say how dare you for tempting Adam and Eve...

 

[cyberjosh]

I agree with you. If God says something is going to happen it is going to happen. If God says that he will not let something happen it is not going to happen. God has said that the Devil will do a very specific evil thing, but as the Devil sees his future maybe he does not want to follow the evil destiny. God has the power still make the devil do evil things but He cannot sin.

It is like when the Oracle told Neo "Don't worry about the vase" and then he broke it in the Matrix. Then the Oracle said "The question is, would you have still broken it if I didn't say anything."

I know exactly where you are coming from but you are delving too much into philosophy as if you are scared of some thing that you or someone else can't avoid doing. Free will and divine sovereignty are intertwined in a way we as humans could never explained, call it a paradox if you wish but Biblical theology demands it. You don't need to hyperfocus on this one issue which has little bearing on the Christian life to the point of confusing or scaring yourself. But don't decieve yourself into the thinking the Devil is a kitty cat and not the roaring lion of 1 Peter 5:8. Satan has a diabolical goal to inhibit God's plans: Job, temptation of Jesus, Ananias and his wife Sapphira, and enticing us to do the evil desires of our flesh ("But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed." - James 1:14)

Satan has always had a goal of destroying God's works, and always will, and he is far more intelligent than we give him credit for. And if he is not working for God then he is working for himself, which means trying to make himself God, and indeed while we are alive he is the "god of this world/age" (2 Corinthians 4:4). Satan most certainly wants followers, and it is all at our and God's expense. Luckily for us we have the power to thwart Satan's attempts, "because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world [Satan] ." (1 John 4:4)

That is my question: As the Devil knows the prediction maybe he does not want to follow it.

Heh, this is another worry you should relieve yourself of. This is like people who are afraid to pray out loud because "the devil might hear them." This is the spirit of fear, and God has not given us the spirit of fear. God sets up his hedge of protection around those who are his. Satan is dead set in his will and though I'm sure he knows of his inevitable demise he is still out to destroy anyone he can get his hands on, from now until the end.


P.S. From all the discussion that has taken place thus far what is your current view on the issue now?

 

[TanNinety]

Few Christians have an open enough mind to even consider that interpretation as a possiblity (I've never met one) so I cannot discuss it with anyone. If I do they'll tell me that even discussing it is blasphemy.

Stick around and you will find quite some people on these forums who are open to the idea that God is bigger than previously assumed. I thought I was the only one who God revealed Himself to, a little bit contrary to already established dogma. But I have found some comfort in knowing that there are others to whom this understanding has also been given.

If there can be no battle against God then why would the Devil try. He at least thinks that there is a battle to be won whether there is one or not.

He absolutely knows that there is battle to be won. God has given him the chance, a will that he can choose to work towards his victory. I choose God not because “the future is already set†but because I trust Him with His decisions that He will deliver what He has promised.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

God is not watching a pre-recorded future play itself. He is working even until now. Working to thwart the plans of the devil. Working towards establishing His kingdom on earth, at any cost to those who overcome sin and walk in righteousness believing in His Son.

 

[HeWillReturn]

What I know in my Bible studies is that there are two types of sins.

1) omission

2) remission


1. Omission: This type of sin is a sin that you are neglected on. (ie. hitting your thumb with a hammer and you curse because of the pain).

2. Remission: This is is doing something that you know is wrong but you do it anyway (against your conscience).

Now what sin does the Devil, Satan etc make you do? I believe it's the sin of Remission. The sin that you do and you know it's wrong but you do it anyway because of temptation.

I agree from your definition that if Satan is tempting man it sounds like Remission sin. But is he?

 

[Atonement]

I agree from your definition that if Satan is tempting man it sounds like Remission sin. But is he?

Well unless one does not believe in the Bible, then they could say no..

Luk 4:13 And when the devil had ended all the temptation, he departed from him for a season.

If Satan will tempt our Lord and Saviour, who's to say he won't tempt us? Are we above our Lord, our Messiah, our King? I don't think so and neither does the Bible..

Mat 10:24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.

So in answer to your question, yes Satan tempts mankind. Unless you can try to prove me wrong somewhere??

 

[HeWillReturn]

Free will and divine sovereignty are intertwined in a way we as humans could never explained, call it a paradox if you wish but Biblical theology demands it.

Biblical theology better not demand a paradox otherwise it would not be true and I wouldn't believe it. If Muslim suicide bombers questioned their religious paradoxes maybe they have found God and wouldn't be blowing themselves up. I believe in my faith so strongly I challenge you to convince me that there is a paradox. If you can do so (as I strongly believe that you cannot) I will renounce my religion. Saying that God works in strange and mysterious ways is good to explain unknown reasons for the things NOT for accounting for false statements or paradoxes in the bible as there are none (at least that I've seen).

P.S. From all the discussion that has taken place thus far what is your current view on the issue now?

I thank all of your for your unbelievable support. I did not realize how many ideas there are on such a (seemingly) simple question. I have to run but I will let all of you know on where I stand now. All your generosity deserves at least that![/quote]

 

[cyberjosh]

Biblical theology better not demand a paradox otherwise it would not be true and I wouldn't believe it. If Muslim suicide bombers questioned their religious paradoxes maybe they have found God and wouldn't be blowing themselves up. I believe in my faith so strongly I challenge you to convince me that there is a paradox. If you can do so (as I strongly believe that you cannot) I will renounce my religion. Saying that God works in strange and mysterious ways is good to explain unknown reasons for the things NOT for accounting for false statements or paradoxes in the bible as there are none (at least that I've seen).

You misunderstand so please don't misjudge my position.

Definition:

Paradox - A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true. (Answers.com - Online Dictionary).

And I didn't necessarily say it was a paradox but that you could call it one. In the case of any paradox there is an essential lack of information into the knity-gritty details of something. Not that there isn't an explainable answer. Take the Trinity for example. I believe the Bible demands that the Trinity is a reality but I may not be able to theologically describe the exact nature and relationship of the trinity to you.

Actually I could give you a decent answer that explains to a point how God's sovereignty works in your life once you yeild to him (walking in the Spirit), thus involving free will (yeilding) and God's sovereignty simultaneously. I had to use difficult terminology to describe something incredibly in depth.

Nonetheless I hope the rest of my statement was not lost on you. I tried to quote scripture. What did you think about my other points?

 

[HeWillReturn]

You misunderstand so please don't misjudge my position.

Definition:

Paradox - A seemingly contradictory statement that may nonetheless be true. (Answers.com - Online Dictionary).

You were right. I did misinterpret your usage of the paradox although in all fairness you used it correctly... Sorry :

I understand what you are saying now, and I did read your posted opinion in its entirety. I think you have a solid argument; however, if I see something that is seemingly contradictory I am compelled to question 'why can it not be?' If that makes me a sinner for using a little common sense in my belief system then I guess I'm a sinner, but I do not think that God wants you to question your belief system as blind faith leads to damnation. Consider all the people in the world that worship false Gods.

Nonetheless I hope the rest of my statement was not lost on you. I tried to quote scripture. What did you think about my other points?

Take the Trinity for example. I believe the Bible demands that the Trinity is a reality but I may not be able to theologically describe the exact nature and relationship of the trinity to you.

Using your example, I do not question that the Bible demands that the Trinity is a reality. I question if it is common knowledge of Christians that God is in at least 3 places at the same time solely based on the evidence that there is a Holy Trinity. It is one thing to consider a possibility and another to put faith in it. Who can claim to know the reality of the interconnectivies and relationship between the Holy Trinity? God has never explained it in detail;however, how many Christians put faith in things that are not Gods' word.

Billions of people put faith in something that is not true. That can be proven by the thousands of disagreeing Chrisitian sects. Otherwise there would be no sects within bible believers. There would be one unified Christian family with the same belief with only disagreements on what they thought is true. I have never heard a preacher that told me that something might be true.

Putting faith in God's word leads to salvation, but what does God think of bible that blindly put faith in something that was never his will? Will God respect if I so blindly follow my faith regardless of a lie believed by man or his Holy word? Will blind believers receive salvation? As I don't know, I'll leave that to God to decide.

 

[HeWillReturn]

To All Posters

Thank all of you for your posts, I wish I could thank all of you. You have made this into a very interesting debate. I think in some way God answers every prayer. :wink:

Stick around and you will find quite some people on these forums who are open to the idea that God is bigger than previously assumed. I thought I was the only one who God revealed Himself to, a little bit contrary to already established dogma. But I have found some comfort in knowing that there are others to whom this understanding has also been given.

Very true TanNinety, very true...

 

[HeWillReturn]

Battle of the gods

I've got to say, TanNinety, you really made this a very interesting discussion. This would have been nothing without your wisdom and generosity to give it. Thank you!

He absolutely knows that there is battle to be won. God has given him the chance, a will that he can choose to work towards his victory. I choose God not because “the future is already set†but because I trust Him with His decisions that He will deliver what He has promised.

I agree completely.

John 5:17 But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work.

God is not watching a pre-recorded future play itself. He is working even until now. Working to thwart the plans of the devil. Working towards establishing His kingdom on earth, at any cost to those who overcome sin and walk in righteousness believing in His Son.

This is a good argument for the idea that there is a battle to be won that God will have to "work" to win. But, who knows, perhaps "work" means more that God continues to accomplish things and not the more human interpretation that God actually has to put any elbow grease to accomplish something... And the questions go on.