Is Second Coming IMMINENT?

[Carry_Your_Name]

No in the air, in the clouds is plainly referring to the sky where the clouds are.

Again, post a scripture that is contextually relevant to the Second Coming and make your point from the scriptures.

If that's what you're aiming for, see Matt. 24:30, Acts 1:9-11 and Zech. 14:1-4. The point is Jesus's bodily return on Mount Olives, the manner thereof is specified in Acts 1:11. As long as Mount Olives is not in the sky, the church is not in the sky.

Also, the broad context of 1 Thess. 4:13-18 is about resurrection, not ascension. The Thessalocian church was mourning the dead, and Paul was comforting them by assuring them with the teaching of resurrection.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not deliberately being antagonistic or combative, I simply believe the bible has a consistent message regarding the second coming - God's people will meet Lord Jesus on Mount Olives, right at the spot where he ascended into heaven. Meeting him high up in the sky contradicts that message, therefore it's a misinterpretation.

 

[Free]

Friend, I'm not here to argue with you. If you hold a grudge against me, let it go.

This is a debate forum and I simply asked a question for clarification, which you didn’t answer.

“Air" here is a metaphor for "the world," which would include the air, correct?

The message in 1 Thess. 4:17 is consistent with Matt. 24:30, Acts. 1:11 and Zech. 14:1-4, where Jesus will descend from the sky to the GROUND, nobody's going up, he's going DOWN. there's no such magical anti-gravity force sweeping people off their feet into the sky. In none of the verses you quote is there such a force.

So, “up” doesn’t actually mean up, “clouds” doesn’t actually mean clouds, and “air” doesn’t actually mean air? Aren’t clouds rather generally high up in the air, in the sky or atmosphere?

Where does 1 Thes. 4:17 say that Jesus comes to ground? If it’s implied, what would be inconsistent with believers going up to meet him and then returning with him as he finishes his descent?

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts. 1:9-11)

But, you said above that “there's no such magical anti-gravity force sweeping people off their feet into the sky.” Now you show that Jesus went up into the sky, into a cloud no less. Was it a “magical anti-gravity force” that swept Jesus off his feet into the sky? Or did God do it and is God only powerful enough to do it for one person, not many millions?

Behold, the day of the Lord is coming ...
Then the Lord will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east.
And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two,
From east to west,
Making a very large valley;
Half of the mountain shall move toward the north
And half of it toward the south. (Zech. 14:1-4)

That's a good passage. You need to also be citing the Bible translation you're using.

"Plain and natural" reading doesn't apply,

It always applies, in that it is always one of the first thing to consider. 1 Thes. 4:17 is actually a fairly easy text, not that it gives all the details or a complete picture, but it's clear that "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (ESV). That's pretty straightforward.

Of course, more context could be used, such as verse 16:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (ESV)

We see the "them" in verse 17 as those who were "dead in Christ," but will be raised. What a plain reading tells us, then, is that Jesus will be descending, the dead in Christ will be raised and join together with those believers who are alive, and they "will be caught up . . . in the clouds to mee the Lord in the air."

Scripture herein must be interpreted by the Scripture itself. Zech. 14:3 specifically states "His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives", therefore your idea of "atmosphere" is false.

If it is false, you certainly haven't given any evidence that that is the case. The two things are not at all mutually exclusive.

 

[Alfred Persson]

If it's meant to be a future event, as two witnesses act in future tense, the 42 months in Rev. 11:2-3 must be set in the future, and those are the same 42 months of the Antichrist's reign. There'll be no seven year tribulation, only three and a half year.

But leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months. nd I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” (Rev. 11:2-3)

Read it in context, it is "set in the future". Its a "new scene", sandwiched between the "third woe" and "the great portent" that appears in heaven:

14 The second woe has passed. The third woe is coming very soon.
15 Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Messiah, and he will reign forever and ever."
16 Then the twenty-four elders who sit on their thrones before God fell on their faces and worshiped God,
17 singing, "We give you thanks, Lord God Almighty, who are and who were, for you have taken your great power and begun to reign.
18 The nations raged, but your wrath has come, and the time for judging the dead, for rewarding your servants, the prophets and saints and all who fear your name, both small and great, and for destroying those who destroy the earth."
19 Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within his temple; and there were flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy hail.

A great portent appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.
2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pangs, in the agony of giving birth. (Rev. 11:14-12:2 NRS)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

This is a debate forum and I simply asked a question for clarification, which you didn’t answer.

“Air" here is a metaphor for "the world," which would include the air, correct?

The definition of the "world" is up to you. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." You tell me whether this "world" includes the air, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth.

So, “up” doesn’t actually mean up, “clouds” doesn’t actually mean clouds, and “air” doesn’t actually mean air? Aren’t clouds rather generally high up in the air, in the sky or atmosphere?

"Then I stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns." Herein Sand of the sea actually doesn't mean literal sand, Beast doesn't actually mean literal beast, sea doesn't actually mean sea, head and horns don't actually mean head and horns. These terms are defined not by me or you, but the bible itself, Gen. 22:17, Dan. 7:23, Rev. 17:15, Rev. 17:9, Rev. 17:12, respectively. Likewise, terms in 1 Thess. 4:17 are not necessarily bound to their literal meanings, they are defined by other scriptural messages, in this case, Acts 1:9-11, Zech. 14:1-5 and Eph. 2:2. The bible doesn't contradict itself, when your "plain and natural reading" does contradict, you're getting it wrong.

Where does 1 Thes. 4:17 say that Jesus comes to ground? If it’s implied, what would be inconsistent with believers going up to meet him and then returning with him as he finishes his descent?

Your interpretation is inconsistent with Matt. 24:30-31, Acts. 1:9-11, Zech. 14:1-5 and Rev. 19:11-16 regarding the manner of the Lord's second coming.

But, you said above that “there's no such magical anti-gravity force sweeping people off their feet into the sky.” Now you show that Jesus went up into the sky, into a cloud no less. Was it a “magical anti-gravity force” that swept Jesus off his feet into the sky? Or did God do it and is God only powerful enough to do it for one person, not many millions?

Just because Jesus was taken up into heaven doesn't mean everyone was. What God will do is gathering His elect at Mount Olives to herald the Lord's second coming, no such "magical anti-gravity force” is mentioned.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:31)
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. (Mk. 13:27)

That's a good passage. You need to also be citing the Bible translation you're using.

All NJKV.

It always applies, in that it is always one of the first thing to consider. 1 Thes. 4:17 is actually a fairly easy text, not that it gives all the details or a complete picture, but it's clear that "Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord" (ESV). That's pretty straightforward.

No it doesn't, correct interpretation is dependent upon scriptural, historical and cultural contexts, paremount of them all is the Scriptural context, the bible interprets itself, especially when it comes to prophecies, Rev. 13:1 is a good example. "Plain and natural reading" out of these contexts is erroneous.

Of course, more context could be used, such as verse 16:

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. (ESV)

We see the "them" in verse 17 as those who were "dead in Christ," but will be raised. What a plain reading tells us, then, is that Jesus will be descending, the dead in Christ will be raised and join together with those believers who are alive, and they "will be caught up . . . in the clouds to mee the Lord in the air."

Again, Jesus is coming DOWN to us, we're not going up to him. "Caught up" is referring to a captivated mental state, as in "gazing up into heaven", defined not by me, but the Scripture. You rely on your own understanding, I rely on the word of God.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk. 21:27)

If it is false, you certainly haven't given any evidence that that is the case. The two things are not at all mutually exclusive.

They are mutually exclusive as long as Mount Olives is determined to stay on the ground and split in the middle, not floating in the air to meet the Lord in the sky. Show me any evidence that Mount Olives will ascend into the atmosphere.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Read it in context, it is "set in the future". Its a "new scene", sandwiched between the "third woe" and "the great portent" that appears in heaven:

Then it is the same 42 months, the two witnesses WILL preach for 42 months during the reign of the Antichrist.

 

[Alfred Persson]

Then it is the same 42 months, the two witnesses WILL preach for 42 months during the reign of the Antichrist.

No. Its the "seventh" trumpet, symbolizing completeness, the "end" of a series, hence the scene of God's certain victory, spoken as though it already happened because it is "sure to happen."

The chronology your eisegesis superimposes on the Book of Revelation ignores the clear inference this is about events during a seven year period.


First God's two witnesses appear and preach 3.5 years, and then are slain, by the beast who ascends from the abyss and rules for another 3.5 years = 7 years:

3 "And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy one thousand two hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."
...
7 When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them. (Rev. 11:3-7 NKJ)

4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, "Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?"
5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months.
6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven.
7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.
(Rev. 13:4-8 NKJ)

This is why John says the events in Revelation happen "ἃ δεῖ γενέσθαι ἐν τάχει (Rev. 1:1 BYZ), ["things which must happen rapidly"] so that these End-Time events fit a 7 year period seen in Daniel 9:27 and elsewhere.

While the two witness' preach, the Man of sin (Adonikam the Antichrist) is "the false Christ" working miracles and condoning sin, then at midweek he breaks his covenant with the world's religions and declares himself to be "the Son of Destruction" (2 Thessalonians 2:3-3) prophesied to come and turns against all worship not done to himself and the Dragon. In other words, "he ascends" out of the pit of hell, and kills God's two witnesses, and then persecutes those who refuse to leave the real Jesus Christ, and take his mark.

The "Trumpets" herald things that affect the third of the earth that claims to be Christian (Compare Revelation 14:9-13; cf. Sheep and Goat Judgment at Christ's return Matthew 25:31 ff.)

The "great rebellion" is a religious apostasy of the entire earth when everything called god or worshiped, is discarded as "obsolete superstition", because the visible appearance of Satan's fallen angels, disguised as "Elohim Designers of life on earth" (Extraterrestrials), convince many to discard their former religious profession, in a strong delusion that sweeps away all who don't love and follow the Truth, the Word of God the Bible:

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness. (2 Thess. 2:9-12 NKJ)

Paul thanks God that real Christians, unlike antichrists, continue to follow the Bible, because they are sanctified by the real Holy Spirit, not inwardly deceived by the working of the energy of Satan, the antichrist spirit:

13 But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth,
14 to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.
15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle.
16 Now may our Lord Jesus Christ Himself, and our God and Father, who has loved us and given us everlasting consolation and good hope by grace,
17 comfort your hearts and establish you in every good word and work. (2 Thess. 2:13-17 NKJ)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

No. Its the "seventh" trumpet, symbolizing completeness, the "end" of a series, hence the scene of God's certain victory, spoken as though it already happened because it is "sure to happen."

The seventh trumpet IS the end, at which the Lord's kingdom is established. You're making stuffs up to justify a bogus conspiracy theory. Read and compare the seven trumpets and the seven bowls, those are parallel prophecies, taking place within the same time period.

The chronology your eisegesis superimposes on the Book of Revelation ignores the clear inference this is about events during a seven year period.

It is you who read in chronological order, which leads to the wrong conclusion of seven year period instead of three and a half. Hadn't Lord Jesus said that those days will be shortened - not lengened - for the elect's sake?

 

[Alfred Persson]

The seventh trumpet IS the end, at which the Lord's kingdom is established. You're making stuffs up to justify a bogus conspiracy theory. Read and compare the seven trumpets and the seven bowls, those are parallel prophecies, taking place within the same time period.

It is you who read in chronological order, which leads to the wrong conclusion of seven year period instead of three and a half. Hadn't Lord Jesus said that those days will be shortened - not lengened - for the elect's sake?

I cited scripture for everything. You didn't address my points. Nothing new about that.

I wonder if you ever consulted the "teachers of the church" when you began learning the Bible, to consider what they say is taught in a verse. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors:

Where there is no counsel, the people fall; But in the multitude of counselors there is safety.
(Prov. 11:14 NKJ)

The eisegesis you overlay on texts reminds me of some who use scissors when assembling a picture puzzle, to make pieces fit.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

It always applies, in that it is always one of the first thing to consider.

Really? Take a good look at these examples below, all "plain and natural" readings.

Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?”(Jn. 2:20)
Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old?" (Jn. 3:4)
The woman said to Him, “Sir, You have nothing to draw with, and the well is deep. Where then do You get that living water?" (Jn. 4:11)
The Jews therefore quarreled among themselves, saying, “How can this Man give us His flesh to eat?”(Jn. 6:52)
Then the Jews said among themselves, “Where does He intend to go that we shall not find Him? Does He intend to go to the Dispersion among the Greeks and teach the Greeks? What is this thing that He said, ‘You will seek Me and not find Me, and where I am you cannot come’?”(Jn. 7:35-36)
Then the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?”(Jn. 8:57)

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

I cited scripture for everything. You didn't address my points. Nothing new about that.

No amount of scripture matters when you're consistently reading your own theories into the text. I cited Jesus's teaching that "those days will be shortened" (Matt. 24:22), which you've totally ignored. Nothing new about that.

I wonder if you ever consulted the "teachers of the church" when you began learning the Bible, to consider what they say is taught in a verse. There is wisdom in a multitude of counselors:

My teachers of the church taught me that there's only one great tribulation of three and a half years, and they showed me the two perspectives, one from heaven, one from earth, and these two perspectives are the two halves of the chiastic structure in which the book of Revelation was written, the second halve the mirror image of the first.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. (Rev. 4:1)
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. (Rev. 13:1)

 

[Alfred Persson]

No amount of scripture matters when you're consistently reading your own theories into the text. I cited Jesus's teaching that "those days will be shortened" (Matt. 24:22), which you've totally ignored. Nothing new about that.

My teachers of the church taught me that there's only one great tribulation of three and a half years, and they showed me the two perspectives, one from heaven, one from earth, and these two perspectives are the two halves of the chiastic structure in which the book of Revelation was written, the second halve the mirror image of the first.

After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. (Rev. 4:1)
Then I stood on the sand of the sea. (Rev. 13:1)

What denomination? Knowing which would help me "see from your perspective", what you believe.

As for me, it wouldn't help you the Reformed Baptists taught me much because my present eschatology differs significantly from theirs now, having consulted every branch of Christianity and also Judaism and also allowing current events are what "unseal words" in the end time:

8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, "My lord, what shall be the end of these things?"
9 And he said, "Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 "Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.
(Dan. 12:8-10 NKJ)

If this premise is correct, that Daniel (and modern interpreters) cannot understand the words in these prophecies because they permit only what Daniel knows about symbolism to interpret the words, the words remain sealed to them.

Whereas their hermeneutic is sound when not treating prophecy, it is unsound when treating prophecy.

For example, today's interpreters would never permit "the daily sacrifice" in Daniel be what the Christian church does in the end time, not Jewish priests:

When Daniel asks for explanation, he is told the words are sealed to the end time. There are two possibilities:
1. Either God will unseal the words in the end time supernaturally revealing hidden meaning to His prophets.
2. End time events "unseal" the words as new developments increase their application and meaning.

Number 2 is correct because it is written "many...will understand" (Dan. 12:10), the new understanding arises from "wisdom" critical (sound) thinking to "many", and not supernatural means to a few prophets.

Therefore, Bible Believers today are the wise who understand these sealed words.

Unknown to Daniel, the apostles interpret OT Temple imagery in the New Covenant as applying to the Church, and its members are the priests sacrificing the daily, through their prayers and offerings and taking up the cross of Christ. "The wise shall understand" because Scripture makes even children among them "wise unto salvation" (2 Timothy 2:15-17). Scripture interprets Scripture.

As Christ fulfilled the law the "continual" [08548 תָּמִיד tamiyd] sacrifice (ἡ θυσία δι παντoς, LXX) is now a function of Christ's ministry. Confirming this, the apostles apply Old Testament Temple imagery to the Church, calling it "the Temple of God" (1 Cor. 3:16-17; 6:19; 2 Cor. 6:16; 2 Thess. 2:4; Eph. 2:21). Born Again Christians are the Temple priests (1 Pet. 2:5) who offer up "the Daily Sacrifice" by their service to Christ their LORD:

you also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pet. 2:5) NKJ

As we take up Christ's cross daily (Lk. 9:23) our sacrifice and service is the continual [sacrifice]

Therefore by Him let us continually offer the sacrifice of praise to God, that is, the fruit of our lips, giving thanks to His name. (Heb. 13:15) NKJ

I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. (Rom. 12:1) NKJ

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

What denomination? Knowing which would help me "see from your perspective", what you believe.

As for me, it wouldn't help you the Reformed Baptists taught me much because my present eschatology differs significantly from theirs now, having consulted every branch of Christianity and also Judaism and also allowing current events are what "unseal words" in the end time:

My perspective is that the book of Revelation is written in a chiastic structure, the first half from ch. 1 to 11 mirrors the second from ch. 13 to the end, ch. 12 is the transitional climax. This is a common literary device, many books, section, down to small sentences in the bible are written in this way, e.g. "Sabbath is made for man, not man for Sabbath." This has nothing to do with denomination, you either know it or you don't.

If this premise is correct, that Daniel (and modern interpreters) cannot understand the words in these prophecies because they permit only what Daniel knows about symbolism to interpret the words, the words remain sealed to them.

Whereas their hermeneutic is sound when not treating prophecy, it is unsound when treating prophecy.

Neraly all the symbols and terms in Revelation have their references in previous books, especially the OT prophecy books. If you understand the previous books, you'll understand Revelation, it's the very essence of exegesis. Again, This has nothing to do with denomination, you either know it or you don't. If you have to know, I'm most comfortably aligned with messianic Judaism.

Therefore, Bible Believers today are the wise who understand these sealed words.

On prophetic and historical issues, maybe; on moral and societal issues, I'm afraid not, moral decline, materialistic view and the corruption of language have taken their tolls. The wise have the discernment of the time, they read the current events through prophetic lens, not the other way around. For example, what is the image of the Beast? Satan's counterfeit of the image of God. What is the mark of the Beast? Satan's counterfeit of the Seal of God. These are the only correct interpretations. How they will be fulfilled in reality remain to be seen, killer robots and neurolink chips are possible scenarios of fulfillment, NOT interpretation.

 

[Alfred Persson]

My perspective is that the book of Revelation is written in a chiastic structure, the first half from ch. 1 to 11 mirrors the second from ch. 13 to the end, ch. 12 is the transitional climax. This is a common literary device, many books, section, down to small sentences in the bible are written in this way, e.g. "Sabbath is made for man, not man for Sabbath." This has nothing to do with denomination, you either know it or you don't.

Neraly all the symbols and terms in Revelation have their references in previous books, especially the OT prophecy books. If you understand the previous books, you'll understand Revelation, it's the very essence of exegesis. Again, This has nothing to do with denomination, you either know it or you don't. If you have to know, I'm most comfortably aligned with messianic Judaism.

On prophetic and historical issues, maybe; on moral and societal issues, I'm afraid not, moral decline, materialistic view and the corruption of language have taken their tolls. The wise have the discernment of the time, they read the current events through prophetic lens, not the other way around. For example, what is the image of the Beast? Satan's counterfeit of the image of God. What is the mark of the Beast? Satan's counterfeit of the Seal of God. These are the only correct interpretations. How they will be fulfilled in reality remain to be seen, killer robots and neurolink chips are possible scenarios of fulfillment, NOT interpretation.

Thanks for your answer. Overlaying chiastic symmetry on Revelation would veil it, not explain it. But it does explain the diversity of interpretation existing these last few hundred years, a bable of tongues.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Thanks for your answer. Overlaying chiastic symmetry on Revelation would veil it, not explain it. But it does explain the diversity of interpretation existing these last few hundred years, a bable of tongues.

As I repeatedly said, the bible interprets itself, as much as the epilogue of a novel is interpreted by all the previous chapters, the mark and image of the Beast are two examples. Ultimately, a reality check will manifest - not interpret - everything, at least the direction things are moving in. Until then, it's sealed and preserved for the future, you don't know what you don't know. The disciples had been travelling with Jesus in person for multiple years, yet they were still clueless at the last supper, they didn't understand the significance of the burial, resurrection and ascension until they saw with their own eyes.

And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:21-22)

 

[Alfred Persson]

As I repeatedly said, the bible interprets itself, as much as the epilogue of a novel is interpreted by all the previous chapters, the mark and image of the Beast are two examples. Ultimately, a reality check will manifest - not interpret - everything, at least the direction things are moving in. Until then, it's sealed and preserved for the future, you don't know what you don't know. The disciples had been travelling with Jesus in person for multiple years, yet they were still clueless at the last supper, they didn't understand the significance of the burial, resurrection and ascension until they saw with their own eyes.

And if you say in your heart, ‘How shall we know the word which the Lord has not spoken?’— when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the thing does not happen or come to pass, that is the thing which the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously; you shall not be afraid of him. (Deut. 18:21-22)

We can discern how well it served to uncover truth, from all the cherry picking and eisegesis associated with it. It helps explain the meanings you give to some texts, I simply do not see. Pattern matching is problematic, like seeing faces in the clouds. Try using it to win the lottery. Good luck!

 

[JLB]

If that's what you're aiming for, see Matt. 24:30, Acts 1:9-11 and Zech. 14:1-4. The point is Jesus's bodily return on Mount Olives, the manner thereof is specified in Acts 1:11. As long as Mount Olives is not in the sky, the church is not in the sky.

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16

This is where Jesus returns from heaven with His saints, the dead in Christ.

From here He descends to the earth.

Jesus will come down from heaven to the earth.

He will return as He left according to Acts 1:11.

Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” Acts 1:11

They could see Him high above the earth in the sky until He was out of their sight.


Case closed.

 

[Free]

The definition of the "world" is up to you. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." You tell me whether this "world" includes the air, I'm not gonna put words in your mouth.

Don't shift the burden of proof onto me. You're the one who claimed: "That is Left Behind movie script, not biblical prophesy, "air" is not high up in the sky. Satan is called the "prince of the air" (Eph. 2:2), that means this world."

That is what my question--“Air" here is a metaphor for "the world," which would include the air, correct?--was addressing.

Likewise, terms in 1 Thess. 4:17 are not necessarily bound to their literal meanings, they are defined by other scriptural messages, in this case, Acts 1:9-11, Zech. 14:1-5 and Eph. 2:2. The bible doesn't contradict itself, when your "plain and natural reading" does contradict, you're getting it wrong.

First, you haven't come close to showing there is a contradiction, based on a simple, literal understanding of 1 Thes. 4:17. You can't just go making connections because it suits your beliefs. You think there is a contradiction because you're making certain assumptions, which you haven't shown to be the case.

Your interpretation is inconsistent with Matt. 24:30-31, Acts. 1:9-11, Zech. 14:1-5 and Rev. 19:11-16 regarding the manner of the Lord's second coming.

No, it isn't, and you haven't shown it to be. Stop making assumptions, for your sake.

Just because Jesus was taken up into heaven doesn't mean everyone was. What God will do is gathering His elect at Mount Olives to herald the Lord's second coming, no such "magical anti-gravity force” is mentioned.

Never mind. My point went over your head.

And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. (Matt. 24:31)
And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven. (Mk. 13:27)

I'm not sure what your point is, but okay.

No it doesn't, correct interpretation is dependent upon scriptural, historical and cultural contexts, paremount of them all is the Scriptural context, the bible interprets itself, especially when it comes to prophecies, Rev. 13:1 is a good example. "Plain and natural reading" out of these contexts is erroneous.

All that is taken into account in what I've given. The main theme of 1 Thes. is eschatological, with Jesus's return being mentioned in every chapter. The point of which is to give encouragement to (likely) new believers amidst trials and encourage godly living.

Again, 1 Thes. 4:17 is a very plain, straightforward verse. There is no need to bring in outside passages to help understand it. The main context of that verse is found in verses 13-17: that those who died as believers will be raised again. More than that, they will be raised and be together with the alive believers to meet Jesus in the air.

This is an epistle, not an apocryphal book, so there is no apocalyptic language, not even metaphor (maybe clouds--could be clouds of glory). There just isn't anything that gives difficulty. The main meaning would be that which the original readers would have understood. There wouldn't even be a need for the church at Thessalonica to read anything else eschatological.

And again, Paul doesn't give every detail possible; he's speaking in generalities. But, it is abundantly clear that all believers will be suddenly snatched up into the air to meet Jesus while he's coming down. Paul is not at all concerned here to say what happens after that other than very generally--"and so we will always be with the Lord."

Again, Jesus is coming DOWN to us, we're not going up to him.

1 Thes. 4:17 says both are true--Jesus is coming down and we're going up.

"Caught up" is referring to a captivated mental state, as in "gazing up into heaven", defined not by me, but the Scripture.

Not at all, on both counts. "Caught up" is the Greek word harpagēsometha, and it means:

Thayer Definition:
1) to seize, carry off by force
2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
3) to snatch out or away

Here is how the NASB translates it in all 14 instances it appears in the NT:

carry off (1), caught (4), snatch (2), snatched...away (1), snatches (1), snatches away (1), snatching (1), take...away...by force (1), take...by force (2).

https://biblehub.com/greek/726.htm

Mat 11:12 From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence, and the violent take it by force. (ESV)

Mat 13:19 When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart. This is what was sown along the path. (ESV)

Joh 6:15 Perceiving then that they were about to come and take him by force to make him king, Jesus withdrew again to the mountain by himself. (ESV)

And on it goes. It never refers to "gazing up into heaven," never to a mental state. It always refers to an outward force acting upon something to seize it, generally with a suddenness to it.

You rely on your own understanding, I rely on the word of God.

As nicely as I can say this: you think you do, but you don't; at least you didn't in this case. You didn't even bother to do a basic word study, but based it all on your own reasoning and assumptions. If you had done proper study, you would see that "caught up together with them in the clouds," literally means what it plainly states. And that is further supported by "to meet the Lord in the air," which is where clouds are, up in the sky.

Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.” (Acts 1:9-11)

Then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory. (Lk. 21:27)

Yup.

They are mutually exclusive as long as Mount Olives is determined to stay on the ground and split in the middle, not floating in the air to meet the Lord in the sky. Show me any evidence that Mount Olives will ascend into the atmosphere.

Again, they're not mutually exclusive, and you haven't shown them to be otherwise. I've already given stated how this can be the case, but you didn't bother to address it.

 

[JLB]

The message in 1 Thess. 4:17 is consistent with Matt. 24:30, Acts. 1:11 and Zech. 14:1-4, where Jesus will descend from the sky to the GROUND, nobody's going up, he's going DOWN.

This is to the point of ridiculous. Honestly.

You have been shown the scriptures where Jesus is descending to earth from heaven.

On His way down He will resurrect the dead in Christ and those who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them to meet the Lord in the air, in the clouds.

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:17

What possible reason is there for you to deny this? Please be reasonable.

• shall be caught up together with them in the clouds

What does “caught up” mean to you.
Are you willing to acknowledge the word “up” in verse 17?

Where is “up” to you?

We don’t have any reason to doubt what up means since we have the phrase that is contextually connected to the word in the same sentence… in the clouds


Surely you agree that up means up?

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

We can discern how well it served to uncover truth, from all the cherry picking and eisegesis associated with it. It helps explain the meanings you give to some texts, I simply do not see. Pattern matching is problematic, like seeing faces in the clouds. Try using it to win the lottery. Good luck!

What you've described is the entire theology of the rapture, which is all developed upon 1 Thess. 4:17, this one cherry picked verse, everything else such as Enoch being taken and the Philadelphian church being spared are seeing faces in the clouds.

 

[Carry_Your_Name]

Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He had a name written that no one knew except Himself. He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. And the armies in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. Now out of His mouth goes a sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
Revelation 19:11-16

This is where Jesus returns from heaven with His saints, the dead in Christ.

You don't know that, the "armies in heaven" are the angels, known as "heavenly hosts" in the OT prophecies.