Is Sinning on Purpose Willful Sin ?

[Gregg]

I am asking God for wisdom on how to explain to you on how this works. You believe some of the same things I believe.

You and I agree, God did not under his divine power and election cause Adam to sin in the Garden. We both agree God would not do that.
There are many out there that believe you and I would be wrong.

You say there is a law of permission.

God never gave Adam permission to eat from the tree. No more than I would give my son permission to go play in the street (If he was young again)

So, what you mean to say is not permission, but God instead allowed Adam to eat from the tree, knowing ahead of time Adam would do so.

You say it's permission, because God had power to stop Adam. God knowing Adam would disboey, simpley could have just plucked the tree out of the Garden, problem solved. Instead, God allowed Adam free choice and did nothing, Knowing before He placed man in the garden, Adam would sin against him.

Freegrace, that is like saying I know placing the baby near the edge of the pool they can fall in and drown. So I place the baby near the edge of the pool anyway and watch them drown.

I put up cookies and chips because I know my daughter will take them to her room and eat them all. She does this despite me telling her not to, and she is 7 and knows my rules on just eating junk until its gone. I take measures to protect her health because I know the temptation to find the cookies and just eat them all is to strong for her, despite her knowing better.

You make it sound as if God does not plan things out very well, and does things He knows will end in epic failure. God knew Adam would cause death and grief on this planet because of Adam sinning, yet God just places man in the garden anyway, is not to bright on God's part.

Not one time have I ever put something back together, anyway, knowing I was doing it wrong so it would not work again. If I know it's going to end up wrong, I avoid doing it.

I submit that God has always done everything perfect for man to have success, not failure, and not one time has God ever planned failure, or set up things knowing it will fail, unless man causes the failure on his own.

God tried to keep his promise to Abraham, Gathered Israel under Pharoah for 400 years until they became many, then delivered them out of Eqypt, split the red sea for them, fed them, promised them the land with milk and honey, made it so their shoes did not wear out, protected them from enemies, kept all the sickness away.

That does not sound like someone who knows they will eventually fail and not make it to the promise land. God is not stupid, to go through all that knowing it won't work anway.
God said I am breaching my promise to you, because of your unbelief.

God does not plan, or foreknow that He is every going to break a promise. He does not think that way, or even consider it. Man, changes the conditions along the way.

Scripture does not say God knows all mens actions from start to end. It says He knows all things about the heart. He even searches the earth for a heart perfect toward him so that he can show himself strong in that persons life.

He searches.......................... Not know beforehand.

God can tell us how many grains of sand are on the planet, can tell us how many hairs we have, knows how all things work down to the exact science of it.

The factor God also knows is the heart of man. Our real intentions, and thoughts, and how we act and how we will respond.

The thing about the heart though is that it can change for good or bad. That changes how God reponds.

God "FOUND" iniquity in Satan. Not knew before hand, not caused it. Found it. Satan was not created to disobey him.

The LORD tells us many things before they happen, prophecy. His word is true, and believable. How can you trust a god whose word is not sure, guaranteed to be true? On what basis is that faith or believing?

 

[smaller]

The notion that Adam was somehow perfect at any point in time is faulty to begin with.

Paul explains the condition of Adam rather succinctly in 1 Cor. 15, here:

42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

There is, in short, a FIRST natural man, which Adam was. With all the inherent conditions of a NATURAL man. That natural man, sown as a living soul.

Surely not perfect in any sense of the word.

Adam was in short made subject to DEATH in a temporal dust pile. Adam was made subject to corruption, dishonor, weakness and eventually, the death we all die in the flesh as a result of our mutually inherited conditions, which zero of us avoid.

Jesus avoided corruption and dishonor by specifically stated scriptural exemptions.

He did not avoid weakness and death, but God Himself CHOSE to participate, to that extent, Himself.

Jesus was also a natural man with the huge exemption, yes HUGE. That of being without sin. And in that He did not have dishonor and corruption like the balance of us have and continue to have as facts.

 

[Brother Mike]

Fact 1: It is mandatory to be a sinner in order to be 'in truth.'

1 John 1:8 advises us that we can NOT say we 'have' [present tense application] NO SIN and be in truth.

Paul shows us that sin indwelt his flesh in Romans 7:17-21, even showing that evil was present with him when he desired to do good, presumably all the time desiring to do good, being an Apostle and all.

No one ever becomes sinless, even temporarily, upon belief in Jesus Christ.

If Fact 1 is a scriptural fact, then all issues of being 'legal' under any law evaporates and discontinues any credible conversations of believers being either legal or sinless.

Then, Fact 2: There is no status of willfully continuing to sin, since no one stops being a sinner to begin with.

To put this matter to rest Paul shows himself to be the chief of sinners in 1 Tim. 1:15. Paul dragged himself to the bottom of the totem pole of sinners. And yes, that is a post salvation statement where Paul deployed the term as "I AM" [present tense] the chief of sinners, not "I was" or "I used to be."

enjoy!

smaller

Greetings Smaller, thank you for posting here.

I submit that we don't continue to be sinners. We are not some poor sinner saved by grace.

Paul said he is Cheif of all sinners. Their king. Paul said other things though.

1Ti 1:15-16 kjva 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Is Paul saying He is cheif of sinners still? We have to be careful on how the Greek is written, they used a different languge structure than we do.

After obtaining mercy, Paul still cheif sinner? Lets look at some other scriptures.

1Ti 3:1-3 kjva 1 This is a true saying, If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work. 2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

Paul use to kill believers, persecuted them. So what your saying is that you can be the best sinner, the chief of all sinners to be an Apostle, but if your just a deacon then you have to stop being a sinner? Is that what your saying?


1Ti 1:12 kjva And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

So, you think that the Lord uses Cheif Sinners for ministry work. If your pastor was a drunk, slept around with many women, robbed banks on the week days, then He is still fit and faithful to be a pastor of a church. Is that what you believe?

Heb 12:1 kjva Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us,

So if we are Cheif sinners, and don't lay aside those sin and stop sining then we can still run our race, with no issues at all. That is what you believe?

Or is Paul saying he "WAS" the cheif of all sinners until he obtained Mercy. Is Paul really saying that instead?

 

[smaller]

Greetings Smaller, thank you for posting here.

I submit that we don't continue to be sinners. We are not some poor sinner saved by grace.

Then your claim is that believers are sinless. Which is of course not truthful is it?

There are no amounts of exercises or actions of any kind that will lead us to the conclusion that we are presently sinless. None.

Paul said he is Cheif of all sinners. Their king. Paul said other things though.

I consider Paul to be a truthful example and a truth teller. Otherwise there is no cause to listen to him.

1Ti 1:15-16 kjva 15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Is Paul saying He is cheif of sinners still?

Uh, yes. Without a doubt. Paul deployed that truthful fact by stating 'I am' which is a present tense deployment.

There are credible ways of analyzing the hows and why's of Paul's truthful, factual conclusion.

One thing is for certain. Paul did tell the truth about his condition of being the chief of sinners after salvation.

Paul also lays out some incredible conflicts in his statements to force us to observe information that is exactly the opposite. Here for example:

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; -

I would submit that in Gods Eyes we are both the chief of sinners and sinless by attribution of Christ's sacrifice.

But that doesn't tell the 'whole' of present tense facts. And Paul will show anyone exactly how he made his own conclusions, which I have also had to make in order to arrive at his factual conclusions.

 

[smaller]

To short track Paul's conclusion about himself being the 'chief of sinners' I would point to the fact that all believers, by the nature of their status, being born again, come into greater temptations of the tempter.

If this is true, and it IS true, then the 'source' of Paul's internal battles must be viewed to see just 'how' he derived his conclusion.

It's not just an account of Paul. It's a statement of Paul's internal battles with our mutual adversary. And Paul, as an Apostle, was at the head of the list of targets for internal disruption.

Hence his conclusion.

 

[Gregg]

In the OT, God had no idea what was going on with man until he checked it out, or got a report from the angels. He found men that would obey him and keep watch on them personally. People were not filled with the Holy Spirit but the Spirit came on them from time to time.

"And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them." (Isa 44:7 KJV)

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." (Isa 45:21 KJV)

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isa 46:10 KJV)

"I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them." (Isa 48:5 KJV)

 

[smaller]

Jesus gave us an 'inside' view of evil and the origination point of all sin. It is an internal problem, not an external problem. And that is where all sin stems from. From within.

Matthew 15:
18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
20 These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.

Mark 7:
20 And he said, That which cometh out of the man, that defileth the man.
21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.

The Pharisees made the same mistake and 'religious people' continue to make the same false conclusions today, that by their external actions they will be judged as sinners or not. That is simply not the case.

Evil is an internal matter. No matter how well one white washes their flesh tomb, the issues of evil, which defiles us all, is an internal matter. That of the thoughts and our hearts.

Matthew 7:15
Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Only people who are 'in truth' can speak truthfully of their inner ravenous wolf. And that would be the TEMPTER.

 

[Brother Mike]

The LORD tells us many things before they happen, prophecy. His word is true, and believable. How can you trust a god whose word is not sure, guaranteed to be true? On what basis is that faith

"And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them." (Isa 44:7 KJV)

"Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me." (Isa 45:21 KJV)

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" (Isa 46:10 KJV)

"I have even from the beginning declared it to thee; before it came to pass I shewed it thee: lest thou shouldest say, Mine idol hath done them, and my graven image, and my molten image, hath commanded them." (Isa 48:5 KJV)

Hey, you grabbed my scriptures. Saved me the trouble.

Isa 46:10 kjva Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

Read the scriptures you posted again. What are they saying?

Rom 4:17 kjva (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

You have the answer, but you just need to switch something over.

Jesus said, whatsoever we say and believe what we say will come to pass. Just like our Father. Mark 11:23

There is a big difference in the power of Words spoken to bring something to pass, than just hanging out by the crystal ball fortune telling all day.

God declares the end, from the beggining. Calls those things that be not as though they were.

Nowhere does it say, God just knows the future then tells us about it. He is a bit more proactive than that.

So, if God says it, then it comes to pass.

That is not fortune telling. IN pslams God said, today a son is born, I have begotten him.
God spoke as if it had aready happened. His Word went out, but came to pass many years later and His Word became flesh.

Psa 2:7 kjva I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.

Act 13:33 kjva God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.

So, all the Prophecy that has come to pass, is not God just figuring out ahead of times how it all works out. God spoke it, and it must come to pass.

Remember What Peter said about this?

If God tells you that you will run a major corporation, His plan and will, go now and apply for that clerk job. You however, decided you don't want to go apply, then the path God declared for you, knows everything on his planned path for you will not come to pass.

Many are called, few are choosen.

Outside of God's race, path, and will for us is up in the air. He is not going to force us to get back on track, and what happens to us is our own fault, not his plan, or will.

God does not know how it's going to end up for us, if we don't follow his plan and obey him. He just knows it don't end well.

This is why He promised the land to Israel. Later he said.

Num 14:34 kjva After the number of the days in which ye searched the land, even forty days, each day for a year, shall ye bear your iniquities, even forty years, and ye shall know my breach of promise.

If God knew ahead of time they would not have faith and obey him, yet still told them the promise land is theirs, then God is a lair. He has never lied, or mislead, or said one thing, knowing something else was true. Not one time.

Remember what Peter said about this.

 

[Brother Mike]

Then your claim is that believers are sinless. Which is of course not truthful is it?

There are no amounts of exercises or actions of any kind that will lead us to the conclusion that we are presently sinless. None.


I consider Paul to be a truthful example and a truth teller. Otherwise there is no cause to listen to him.



Uh, yes. Without a doubt. Paul deployed that truthful fact by stating 'I am' which is a present tense deployment.

There are credible ways of analyzing the hows and why's of Paul's truthful, factual conclusion.

One thing is for certain. Paul did tell the truth about his condition of being the chief of sinners after salvation.

Paul also lays out some incredible conflicts in his statements to force us to observe information that is exactly the opposite. Here for example:

1 Corinthians 15:34
Awake to righteousness, and sin not; -

I would submit that in Gods Eyes we are both the chief of sinners and sinless by attribution of Christ's sacrifice.

But that doesn't tell the 'whole' of present tense facts. And Paul will show anyone exactly how he made his own conclusions, which I have also had to make in order to arrive at his factual conclusions.

We can't both be sinless and sinners. Can we sin, yes................ Was Paul sinning and still being the cheif sinner? NO, he use to be before the grace of Jesus came to him.

You can't be called faithful to do ministery and live in sin, or be a sinner.

I know you don't believe you can.

Your looking at the fallen condition of man that was fixed by the Work of the cross. There is ability now with a new heart in us to stop sinning. Does not mean we won't at some time, just means we don't practice it, and resist it.

Paul said I bring my body in subjection, that I may not be cast out. That does not make Paul a sinner having to keep his body under.

What did James say?

Jas 1:14-15 kjva 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Being tempted, having wrong thoughts is not being a sinner. Going through with it, and acting on it is sin.

When a man is tempted He is draw away by his own lust. There must be something in a man to tempt. Something not good. It does not make him a sinner though.

Heb 4:15 kjva For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

Jesus also tempted just like we are by the lust of the flesh he had, did not go through with the sin, or sin. Still had that flesh, still had temptations pull on him like they do us.

I would not call Jesus a sinner saved by grace. No way.

To be a sinner, you have to finish the sin, and continue in it.

We have help from Jesus to resist the sin, He knows what it feels like and there is power to walk away from it.

If we walk after the Spirit (spirit) we will not fullfill the lust and desires of our flesh. No sin.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am asking God for wisdom on how to explain to you on how this works. You believe some of the same things I believe.

You and I agree, God did not under his divine power and election cause Adam to sin in the Garden. We both agree God would not do that.
There are many out there that believe you and I would be wrong.

And they would be wrong.

You say there is a law of permission.

God never gave Adam permission to eat from the tree. No more than I would give my son permission to go play in the street (If he was young again)

Permission in the sense of allowing him to sin. God didn't prevent him from sinning. He allowed Adam's free will to choose to sin. The fact of the prohibition tacitly implies a free choice to do it. A command to not do something is meaningless if one doesn't have the ability to do it.

So, what you mean to say is not permission, but God instead allowed Adam to eat from the tree, knowing ahead of time Adam would do so.

Same thing. To allow someone to do something is to give permission.

You say it's permission, because God had power to stop Adam. God knowing Adam would disboey, simpley could have just plucked the tree out of the Garden, problem solved. Instead, God allowed Adam free choice and did nothing, Knowing before He placed man in the garden, Adam would sin against him.

Yep.

Freegrace, that is like saying I know placing the baby near the edge of the pool they can fall in and drown. So I place the baby near the edge of the pool anyway and watch them drown.

Another non example. A baby has no ability to make intelligent choices. Let's improve your example by putting a fully mentally and physically functional adult who can't swim next to a pool, and warning him not to roll over the edge into the pool, or "in the day that you do that, you shall surely die". Got it? That's a relevant example. Now, if that fully mentally and physically functional man chooses to roll over the edge and into the pool, who is to blame? Who'se fault would it be that he drowned; his or yours? Obviously his. Adam was fully responsible for his actions. God's placing him in the garden and commanding him not to eat of the tree or he would die does not put any blame on God.

Your example of a baby is irrelevant.

I put up cookies and chips because I know my daughter will take them to her room and eat them all.

Another non exammple. God created Adam as a grown adult with the mental capacity to fully understand his choices.

She does this despite me telling her not to, and she is 7 and knows my rules on just eating junk until its gone. I take measures to protect her health because I know the temptation to find the cookies and just eat them all is to strong for her, despite her knowing better.

There is no reason to assume Adam had the mind of a young kid.

You make it sound as if God does not plan things out very well, and does things He knows will end in epic failure.

No, I haven't done that. God doesn't "plan" in the sense that you seem to understand it. Because He is omniscient, He already knows how everything will turn out. Such omniscience doesn't need to plan.

God knew Adam would cause death and grief on this planet because of Adam sinning, yet God just places man in the garden anyway, is not to bright on God's part.

Actually, not too bright on your part. God knew exactly what Adam would do. It's just that you have no clue as to what God's full plan was. God always knew Adam would sin, and God always knew that His Son would die for the sins of the world. How is that a failure.

I submit that God has always done everything perfect for man to have success, not failure, and not one time has God ever planned failure, or set up things knowing it will fail, unless man causes the failure on his own.

So man is bigger than God, and does things that God didn't have the intelligence and knowledge of? Nonsense.

God tried to keep his promise to Abraham, Gathered Israel under Pharoah for 400 years until they became many, then delivered them out of Eqypt, split the red sea for them, fed them, promised them the land with milk and honey, made it so their shoes did not wear out, protected them from enemies, kept all the sickness away.

Are you serious?!! 'tried to'??? God always keeps His promises. But His promises to Israel were conditional, lest you simply missed that part.

That does not sound like someone who knows they will eventually fail and not make it to the promise land.

But you keep failing to know Scripture. Sure, the first generation didn't get to the promised land, because of their continual failure to be faithful and obedient to God. But ALL their children DID enter the land. So God DID keep His promise. What you erroneously see as failure was God keeping His promise to Israel.

God is not stupid, to go through all that knowing it won't work anway.
God said I am breaching my promise to you, because of your unbelief.

He kept His Word. The Jews DID enter the promised land. Don't you know that??

Scripture does not say God knows all mens actions from start to end.

As a matter of FACT, Scripture DOES say that. You simply don't know what Scripture says.
Psa 147:5 - Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite. i.e.; omniscience. All knowing.
1 Jn 3:20 - in whatever our heart condemns us; for God is greater than our heart and knows all things i.e.; omniscience

It says He knows all things about the heart. He even searches the earth for a heart perfect toward him so that he can show himself strong in that persons life.

The verses above says He knows all things and His understanding is infinite.

He searches.......................... Not know beforehand.

Please stop contradicting the Bible. The verse uses human terms to explain that God knows the heart. Psa 147:5 and 1 Jn 3:20 prove that He doesn't have to "search" in the way we humans have to search for things.

The factor God also knows is the heart of man. Our real intentions, and thoughts, and how we act and how we will respond.

Because He knows all things. He is omniscient.

The thing about the heart though is that it can change for good or bad. That changes how God reponds.

Because God has given mankind conditions. His actions have been previously promised to man:
Isa 1:18-20

God "FOUND" iniquity in Satan. Not knew before hand, not caused it. Found it. Satan was not created to disobey him.

Pure nonsense. Psa 147:5 and 1 Jn 3:20 proves that you misunderstand Scripture.

The Hebrew word for "found" is:
מצא
mâtsâ’ maw-tsaw'

A primitive root; properly to come forth to, that is, appear or exist; transitively to attain, that is, find or acquire; figuratively to occur, meet or be present:— + be able, befall, being, catch, Xcertainly (cause to) come (on, to, to hand), deliver, be enough(cause to) find (-ing, occasion, out), get (hold upon), X have (here),be here, hit, be left, light (up-) on, meet (with), X occasion serve, (be) present, ready, speed, suffice, take hold on.

So, as can be seen here, the verse properly means "until iniquity appeared or existed or occurred or was present.

The verse does not support your erroneous view of God.

 

[FreeGrace]

I am in agreement, FreeGrace.

I do not understand how one places faith in a god who is not sovereign, all knowing, perfect in love, and full of grace and truth.

It means such a person doesn't understand the God of creation and the Bible. Sad.

 

[smaller]

We can't both be sinless and sinners. Can we sin, yes................ Was Paul sinning and still being the cheif sinner? NO, he use to be before the grace of Jesus came to him.

There is no state of sinless perfection in this current life, period.

You can't be called faithful to do ministery and live in sin, or be a sinner.

Paul would seem to imply the exact opposite conclusion.

Let's just get clear on 1 matter of sin. If you see sin as 'external' in nature, you will mistake that as being sinless.

Sin itself is a progression from thought to word and eventually deed. The 'external deed' is the last bastion of sin making a full slave of same. But the origination point is and remains internal in everyone.

I know you don't believe you can.

Am I impressed by non-external sinners? No. They don't fool me one bit by lying.

Would I follow or heed a blatantly external sinner? Nope.

Nor will I listen long to any liars.

Eventually these kinds of conversations should turn to the internal matters of sin. And there we will truthfully find everyone a sinner.

Kind of equalizes the playing field.

It's only a question of who's more in control from there.

Your looking at the fallen condition of man that was fixed by the Work of the cross. There is ability now with a new heart in us to stop sinning. Does not mean we won't at some time, just means we don't practice it, and resist it.

Uh, no. No one stops being a sinner, period, if viewed from the inside of the cup. As much of a good show as a lot of religious and even NON religious people show. Judging matters of sin externally can make an unbeliever just as much of a NON sinner as the supposedly religious.

To willfully sin or continue in sin isn't even on the table because internally all people are sinners and sin.

From there is only a matter of excusing the facts based on lack of external actions when that really doesn't even scratch the surface of the issues of sin.

If you physically stopped dead in your tracks and never moved an inch the rest of your life to commit an external action of sin, your claim would be you are sinless.

 

[Gregg]

God does not know how it's going to end up for us, if we don't follow his plan and obey him. He just knows it don't end well.

You say: 'God does not know . . .' and 'He just knows . . .'

It appears that you assign limitations to the God of the Bible. I have asked you a question that is yet to be answered - Do you believe God is sovereign?

 

[Brother Mike]

There is no state of sinless perfection in this current life, period.


Paul would seem to imply the exact opposite conclusion.

Let's just get clear on 1 matter of sin. If you see sin as 'external' in nature, you will mistake that as being sinless.

Sin itself is a progression from thought to word and eventually deed. The 'external deed' is the last bastion of sin making a full slave of same. But the origination point is and remains internal in everyone.



Am I impressed by non-external sinners? No. They don't fool me one bit by lying.

Would I follow or heed a blatantly external sinner? Nope.

Nor will I listen long to any liars.

Eventually these kinds of conversations should turn to the internal matters of sin. And there we will truthfully find everyone a sinner.

Kind of equalizes the playing field.

It's only a question of who's more in control from there.



Uh, no. No one stops being a sinner, period, if viewed from the inside of the cup. As much of a good show as a lot of religious and even NON religious people show. Judging matters of sin externally can make an unbeliever just as much of a NON sinner as the supposedly religious.

To willfully sin or continue in sin isn't even on the table because internally all people are sinners and sin.

From there is only a matter of excusing the facts based on lack of external actions when that really doesn't even scratch the surface of the issues of sin.

If you physically stopped dead in your tracks and never moved an inch the rest of your life to commit an external action of sin, your claim would be you are sinless.

Well then, you would not follow someone who was not producing right fruit, had sin in their life (practicing) I agee there. I did not think you were really saying that.

As long as there is flesh, there is going to be a pull to do wrong. Jesus had the same pull.

So, it's possible through the spirit (Spirit ) to mortify the deeds of this flesh and keep the old man under. Does the potential for the nature to be there, make us sinners?

I don't think anymore than Jesus being tempted, He resisted sin, and was sinless.

Even if we don't sin, are we sinless?

I don't think that either. Scripture says we be perfect minded, anything not perfect minded God will reveal that to us.
We have an advocte with the Father, that makes intercessions.

I believe we are not perfect minded in everything, and we do things our Advocate stands up for us and we don't even know court is in session because we don't yet have the revelation we are doing wrong.

Does that still make us sinners though?

I see what your saying, I just don't believe having the nature present, makes us sinners.

 

[Brother Mike]

You say: 'God does not know . . .' and 'He just knows . . .'

It appears that you assign limitations to the God of the Bible. I have asked you a question that is yet to be answered - Do you believe God is sovereign?

Sovereign is not in scripture, not in one place, nor is mans definition of it found in scripture by another word.

Calvins say God is Soverigen because he predestines all things, in control of all things.

Arminians say God is soverigen, because God gives man a free choice, is not in control, but knows what every choice will be anyway.

I say God is Soverigen, because what He said the first time is right, and right for everyone, for all that will believe it.

Lets stick with things mentioned in scripture though.

Blessings.

 

[Gregg]

Sovereign is not in scripture, not in one place, nor is mans definition of it found in scripture by another word.

Calvins say God is Soverigen because he predestines all things, in control of all things.

Arminians say God is soverigen, because God gives man a free choice, is not in control, but knows what every choice will be anyway.

I say God is Soverigen, because what He said the first time is right, and right for everyone, for all that will believe it.

Lets stick with things mentioned in scripture though.

Blessings.

God is always right, but that is matter of His character - and is not a reason supporting whether or not He is Sovereign. In your understanding, is God sovereign over all of creation - over man? over time(s)? over matter?

And more to the point of this thread, do you think that God's will is sovereign over your will?

 

[Brother Mike]

God is always right, but that is matter of His character - and is not a reason supporting whether or not He is Sovereign. In your understanding, is God sovereign over all of creation - over man? over time(s)? over matter?

And more to the point of this thread, do you think that God's will is sovereign over your will?

What would be your definition of Sovereign. Jesus prayed, they will be done on earth as it it is in Heaven. Pretty good indication that not everything going on in earth is lined up with how God runs things in Heaven. The heavens belong to the Lord, the Earth he gave to man. So if man is in charge down here, the there are lots of things going on that God does not approve or even consider.

Over my will? My will is put subject to his plan (Will) I have my own will.

If we did not have our own will, and God was "Sovereign" over our wills as in charge of them, then we would not ever need to repernt and we would never make mistakes.

What do you conisder Sovereign, and why use a non bible term?

 

[smaller]

Well then, you would not follow someone who was not producing right fruit, had sin in their life (practicing) I agee there. I did not think you were really saying that.

As long as there is flesh, there is going to be a pull to do wrong. Jesus had the same pull.

Unlikely. Being God in flesh, sinless, has it's benefits.

So, it's possible through the spirit (Spirit ) to mortify the deeds of this flesh and keep the old man under. Does the potential for the nature to be there, make us sinners?

Cited previously from the Gospels that evil thoughts are both evil and defiling.

I don't think anymore than Jesus being tempted, He resisted sin, and was sinless.

Being without sin in the case of Jesus is perhaps not the identical situation as it pertains to temptation of sinners.

I doubt very much that Jesus was internally defiled by evil thoughts for example, particularly since we have no example of that in the scriptures.

Even if we don't sin, are we sinless?

There was and is no such person other than God Himself while in the flesh.

I don't think that either. Scripture says we be perfect minded, anything not perfect minded God will reveal that to us.
We have an advocte with the Father, that makes intercessions.

I believe we are not perfect minded in everything, and we do things our Advocate stands up for us and we don't even know court is in session because we don't yet have the revelation we are doing wrong.

Does that still make us sinners though?

My main point in all matters of sin is that all sin originates in thought form and as such it remains unseen while in that realm, even while being active and present in that realm.

To judge matters of sin only on the external sights of same remains worthless.

I see what your saying, I just don't believe having the nature present, makes us sinners.

It has nothing to do with nature. We are all planted in weakness, corruption and dishonor with evil present and indwelling sin in our flesh. There is no avoiding the conclusions of being sinners even temporarily.

 

[Deborah13]

Blessing Deborah, glad to get someone to respond back to me that has understanding. Always glad to hear from you.

Thanks for bringing up Jer 32:35.................... Ummm, what exactly do you think I am saying I believe?

My position is that God neither predestines mans action, or even knows mans future actions unless they obey him and follow his path. The Path of the just.

On God's path, all God planned happens, and God can tell you exactly what you will be doing 20 years from now because it's in the plan, according to his purpose. Off his plan is darkness, and they don't know why they stumble.

Of course it did not even enter into God's mind they would do such horrible things, which proves God is not using forknowledge on man, or predestination. As Freegrace has been contesting with me.

God does not get the blame for anything. You obey him, good things happen. God is not thinking anyone won't make it. Jer 29:11 Man choose not to make it on their own.

When I use to repent, I told the Lord that He knows ahead of time that I will do what I said, He has a plan, and knows all things.

After God helped me see some things in scripture, I found out this repent and all things are well and restored to they way they should be is not exactly true. You prove yourself.

This is why Jesus said, who is faithful in little, more is given and who is faithful in anothers, your own things will be given.

Gen 18:19 kjva For I know him, that he will command his children and his household after him, and they shall keep the way of the LORD, to do justice and judgment; that the LORD may bring upon Abraham that which he hath spoken of him.

The Lord says "I know him." It was the Lord knowing Abraham personally that allowed him to do for Abraham all that He said. Whats the Lord know about me? That I'll just do the same things again once they are presented to me and have to just repent again? Not much to work with there.

Gen 22:12 kjva And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

When did the Lord know? Puts a whole different perspective on this sin and repent cycle. Did for me anyway. I want the Lord to know I can be trusted, through all situations. I won't waiver, I won't even not believe and trust him.

If it's some Thing God already knew, then many scriptures would not be in the Word, if it was just God causing everything, then all the believe this scriptures would be missing.

Blessings.

This is your post in response to the Jeremiah scriptures.
KJV
Jer 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal, to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind:
Jer 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.

Now let's look at it when translated directly from the Hebrew....
Young's Literal Translation
Jer 32:35 And they build the high places of Baal, that are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through to Molech, which I did not command them, nor did it come up on my heart to do this abomination, so as to cause Judah to sin.

So point of my post was that I agree with you that God does not cause all things to happen. He does not command or even ordains all things that happen. He said it never even came into His mind (heart) to tell them to do this horrible abomination. I just hear God declaring that He had nothing to do with what they did.

But this in no way means that God did not know that they would do it.

Sovereignty is another issue. Some how the definition of sovereignty seems to have changed.
Sovereignty is authority to rule. God has all authority to do anything that He wants to do.
I think the best example of someone in the Bible understanding the authority of Christ is the centurion. Because of his position in the Roman army he understood what it meant to have authority over his men. He understood that Jesus had authority over all things and only had to command something and whatever He commanded would happen.

 

[Deborah13]

There is no state of sinless perfection in this current life, period.


Paul would seem to imply the exact opposite conclusion.

Let's just get clear on 1 matter of sin. If you see sin as 'external' in nature, you will mistake that as being sinless.

Sin itself is a progression from thought to word and eventually deed. The 'external deed' is the last bastion of sin making a full slave of same. But the origination point is and remains internal in everyone.



Am I impressed by non-external sinners? No. They don't fool me one bit by lying.

Would I follow or heed a blatantly external sinner? Nope.

Nor will I listen long to any liars.

Eventually these kinds of conversations should turn to the internal matters of sin. And there we will truthfully find everyone a sinner.

Kind of equalizes the playing field.

It's only a question of who's more in control from there.



Uh, no. No one stops being a sinner, period, if viewed from the inside of the cup. As much of a good show as a lot of religious and even NON religious people show. Judging matters of sin externally can make an unbeliever just as much of a NON sinner as the supposedly religious.

To willfully sin or continue in sin isn't even on the table because internally all people are sinners and sin.

From there is only a matter of excusing the facts based on lack of external actions when that really doesn't even scratch the surface of the issues of sin.

If you physically stopped dead in your tracks and never moved an inch the rest of your life to commit an external action of sin, your claim would be you are sinless.

Hey smaller, good to see you.
I would say that being considered by God to be a sinner or a saint has to do with one's position in Christ. It is not our righteousness that keeps us in this position of grace, but the righteousness of the one our faith is in, the Christ.

I would agree that what is seen on the outside has very little to do with sin or righteousness if what is on the inside reeks of sin.